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  1. #11
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    lmao thank you for validating my thoughts. But "firing" people is kind of a last resort. I have come to trust these guys' abilities.

    Should I hire an E3 middle manager for them to latch onto? Can E3's or E9's handle this better than I can?
    You should never make hiring decisions based on a person's type. Ever.

    It is unethical.

    I think 6s and 8s can clash and it is as much about the 8s behavior as it is about the 6.

    What I have always tried to do is use type as a way of understanding and appreciating people for who they are and understanding the differences. I think that might work better than complaining about a particular type and how they act as if the blame is all theirs. I don't really see that as productive.

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    You should never make hiring decisions based on a person's type. Ever.

    It is unethical.
    hmmm. I didn't consider that. However its something we as humans do naturally, the only difference is that I have a label to slap onto those traits.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    What I have always tried to do is use type as a way of understanding and appreciating people for who they are and understanding the differences. I think that might work better than complaining about a particular type and how they act as if the blame is all theirs. I don't really see that as productive.
    Naw I understand. It feels good to vent about how retarded I think these guys are behaving but that's why I'm asking for help.

  4. #14
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    The other thing that occurs to me is that if there are certain people who are pushing our buttons then it can help to look inside ourselves and understand why we are reacting the way we are. We can get ourselves out of a position where we have to deal with those specific people but these same issues tend to crop up again and get worse as time goes on. It is sort of like if you don't learn the lesson you are supposed to learn, these things keep coming up over and over until you figure out a way to deal with it. If you're ambitious and people skills are important to your success then it is helpful to confront the issue and figure out what it is you are supposed to learn. I think typically it involves some sort of projection, past hurts or other baggage that we have.

    Edit: And I speak from the perspective of someone who used to do a lot of this kind of venting as you are doing now but it was typically about a specific individual that I was frustrated or having a problem with.

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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The other thing that occurs to me is that if there are certain people who are pushing our buttons then it can help to look inside ourselves and understand why we are reacting the way we are. We can get ourselves out of a position where we have to deal with those specific people but these same issues tend to crop up again and get worse as time goes on. It is sort of like if you don't learn the lesson you are supposed to learn, these things keep coming up over and over until you figure out a way to deal with it. If you're ambitious and people skills are important to your success then it is helpful to confront the issue and figure out what it is you are supposed to learn. I think typically it involves some sort of projection, past hurts or other baggage that we have.

    Edit: And I speak from the perspective of someone who used to do a lot of this kind of venting as you are doing now but it was typically about a specific individual that I was frustrated or having a problem with.
    I spent 5 years in the military trying to figure out how to solve this problem. And when you ask them what the problem is they can't tell you. Believe me, confronting the problem did nothing. This is about knowledge and awareness of the root cause, not so much being afraid to face something within myself.

    I had a conversation with my retired naval officer father, and he said that I need to establish privacy and weekly meetings, and assert that they need to come to me and say "this is what happened, and this is what I did about it" instead of coming to me looking for a solution to every problem they encounter.

  6. #16
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    You should never make hiring decisions based on a person's type. Ever.

    It is unethical.

    I think 6s and 8s can clash and it is as much about the 8s behavior as it is about the 6.

    What I have always tried to do is use type as a way of understanding and appreciating people for who they are and understanding the differences. I think that might work better than complaining about a particular type and how they act as if the blame is all theirs. I don't really see that as productive.
    Just wanted to quickly make a note here of the fact that to this day... one of the most administered tests during the hiring process is the MBTI.

  7. #17
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    I think highlander took offense to my post but doesn't really want to admit it. I feel bad but that doesn't change the fact that I"m really really fucking pissed at these guys.

  8. #18
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Just wanted to quickly make a note here of the fact that to this day... one of the most administered tests during the hiring process is the MBTI.
    See #6 in the following under "interpreting results".

    http://www.capt.org/mbti-assessment/ethical-use.htm

    Here is another article:

    http://www.stoel.com/showarticle.aspx?Show=957

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  9. #19
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    I think highlander took offense to my post but doesn't really want to admit it. I feel bad but that doesn't change the fact that I"m really really fucking pissed at these guys.
    It's strongly worded so I can see how you might get that impression but I'm actually not offended in the slightest. I hold a strong opinion on this issue. Also, since you are direct in the way you express yourself, my natural inclination is to be direct in return (right or wrong).

    I personally believe it is a very bad idea to make negative judgments about people based on their type. I've done it myself to be sure especially earlier on when I was learning about it. I still have an occasional weak moment, but I try to be pretty conscious of this because I feel it is a dangerous and counterproductive misapplication of type.

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  10. #20
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    See #6 in the following under "interpreting results".

    http://www.capt.org/mbti-assessment/ethical-use.htm

    Here is another article:

    http://www.stoel.com/showarticle.aspx?Show=957
    Yes, thank you. I'm aware that there are pages and pages of 'ethical use guidelines' which merely says to me...'guidelines that we can use to convince ourselves we're not using the MBTI for the reasons we're truly using it for (and subsequently convince ourselves we are [still] really good people).'

    The way I see it is...if you are administering a personality inventory during the hiring process...'unethical' discrimination will occur, period. It is unavoidable no matter how many pretty words you make use of to counteract that reality. I would love to see some actual data on this... how many FPs are hired when screened alongside TJs. <-Here is where we could ascertain how well those 'ethical guidelines' are working.

    Frankly, I would rather be rejected merely because the owner of the company despises ENFPs...than because they believe I will be perpetually late and am unorganized.

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