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  1. #1
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    Default Naranjo's interpretation of Gluttony (enneagram type 7's vice)

    Some things don't quite add up for me here. I'll quote the relevant passages and then explain my problem.

    In the Christian world “gluttony” is included among the seven “cardinal sins,” yet its usual
    understanding as a gluttony for food only makes it appear somewhat less sinful than others. It
    would not be included among the basic sinful dispositions, however, if the original meaning of
    the term were not—as is the case with avarice and lust—something beyond the literal. If we
    understand gluttony more broadly, in the sense of a passion for pleasure, we may say that this
    definitely is a capital sin—inasmuch as it implies a deviation from an individual’s potential for
    self-actualization; hedonism is binding upon the psyche and involves (through confusion) an
    obstacle in the search for the summum bonum and a snare. We may say that a weakness for
    pleasure constitutes a generalized susceptibility to temptation, and in this light we can
    understand Chaucer’s statement in his “The Parson’s Tale” to the effect that “He that is addicted
    to this sin of gluttony may withstand no other sin.”

    When I first heard Ichazo’s ideas of Protoanalysis, this was in Spanish, and he used the
    word “charlatan” for the ennea-type VII individual (and “charlatanism” for the fixation). This
    word also needs to be understood in more than a literal manner: that the glutton is one who
    approaches the world through the strategy of words and “good reasons”—one who
    manipulates through the intellect.


    Well at this point, I don't quite understand why such a physical thing as passion for pleasure would be related to the intellect of the "glutton".

    I guess that's probably part of why I don't understand type 7.

    Someone explain please?

    Thanks for any help.

  2. #2
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    ahah i was eating a sweet while going through the forums and seeing this thread made me feel like i was being caught in the act lol \guilty

    mm i'm not sure if i understand your question. by "intellect of the glutton" do you mean the fact that the 7 is in the mental triad? if so, i was also surprised with i first read naranjo with its focus on "gluttony" because of the enneagram descriptions of the mental activity of the 7 i'd read previously, but then i saw myself completely in the description.
    how are the two things connected? the way i see it (actually, the way i feel it in my personal experience), i have a constant mental activity going on. which has a nervous streak to it, because it includes all the things i'd like to do + all the things that are happening in the real world and that i'm connecting to other things (ne) and i also tend to plan on how to avoid future difficulties, obstacles, etc. but it's not a well thought out thing, it's just a stream of mental activity.
    anyway, this constant stream does not really have a direction, and i sometimes crave a purpose, and i kind of feel compelled to satisfy that craving through "eating" many things. well, if i had a sense of purpose, maybe i could be content with knowing what the goal is and not want everything all the time. but since my mind is constantly searching for new information to add to the already existing information and to somehow find the "piece of the puzzle", i am happy to "eat" experiences, food, etc, anything, that will leave me satisfied for the present moment, or feel that I'm "at peace" in a way, and that will make me forget my mental anxiety in regards to the future.
    i don't know if that rings any bells with you. i guess you are wondering if you are 8w7 or 7w8? but if you don't identify with naranjo's description you're probably an 8w7?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    ahah i was eating a sweet while going through the forums and seeing this thread made me feel like i was being caught in the act lol \guilty
    LOLOLOL ;p

    I thought 7's were shameless though? :P


    mm i'm not sure if i understand your question. by "intellect of the glutton" do you mean the fact that the 7 is in the mental triad? if so, i was also surprised with i first read naranjo with its focus on "gluttony" because of the enneagram descriptions of the mental activity of the 7 i'd read previously, but then i saw myself completely in the description.
    how are the two things connected? the way i see it (actually, the way i feel it in my personal experience), i have a constant mental activity going on. which has a nervous streak to it, because it includes all the things i'd like to do + all the things that are happening in the real world and that i'm connecting to other things (ne) and i also tend to plan on how to avoid future difficulties, obstacles, etc. but it's not a well thought out thing, it's just a stream of mental activity.
    anyway, this constant stream does not really have a direction, and i sometimes crave a purpose, and i kind of feel compelled to satisfy that craving through "eating" many things. well, if i had a sense of purpose, maybe i could be content with knowing what the goal is and not want everything all the time. but since my mind is constantly searching for new information to add to the already existing information and to somehow find the "piece of the puzzle", i am happy to "eat" experiences, food, etc, anything, that will leave me satisfied for the present moment, or feel that I'm "at peace" in a way, and that will make me forget my mental anxiety in regards to the future.
    i don't know if that rings any bells with you. i guess you are wondering if you are 8w7 or 7w8? but if you don't identify with naranjo's description you're probably an 8w7?
    Thanks, this is such a really good description of what a 7 is like from the inside

    By that intellect thing I just quoted Naranjo, I was reading this and it struck me as strange. That's because I think of gluttony (as a generic word, not necessarily 7's gluttony) as something physical, nothing to do with the intellect.

    For me the closest to "mental gluttony" is enjoying interacting with people as that can include talking too, not just "doing", talking is clearly more a mental activity than doing whatever. Though that's more online than offline, offline other things take my attention more than talking. Or if I read a good book that has a lot of action going on in it etc., the act of reading is mental. I don't otherwise relate to the stuff you're talking about. My mind feels exploding trying to imagine your scattered mental world

    I do like having a sense of purpose but if I don't have it I just enjoy whatever, in the moment. If I read above mentioned book then I just read the book focused on the action described in it. If I'm doing something then I focus on the "doing". And I like it that way. So having a sense of purpose is good not because it would make me not want everything at once, no, it's good because then I can strive for something really hard and that in itself is very enjoyable.

    I'm happy to er, "eat", for the sake of satisfaction itself. I don't understand the part about being at peace. You meant that in terms of less mental anxiety then?

    Yes I've been wondering about the 8w7 vs 7w8 thing. But if 7w8's are like this by definition, then nevermind...

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    @pinkgraffiti

    "good post. so, but did you mean you don't identify with this definition then?"

    (Not sure why you sent that as a reputation comment)

    Yeah, I don't relate that much, unless what I mentioned as mental activities count. Do they? I've thought about that too and I'm not sure, because these activities don't involve imagination much. As strange as it may sound, it's true. When I read a story, it's like living it, not just imagining it in my head in pictures or something. The same for talking to others, I'm not inclined to explicitly think too much inside my head, I'm just into living the whole thing, the interaction itself, responding/reacting to people etc etc. (The only exception is some logical stuff but that one's not related to any kind of gluttony.) Am I making much sense here? It's hard to explain. It's probably related to the fact that I don't have much Ne, I have Se instead.

    I've read on since then and there's some more bits in Naranjo's book on this gluttony topic that's not totally clear to me. Naranjo talks about entitlement to gratification too and yep I do relate to that one. I still don't relate to much of the additional parts on fantasy, imagination blahblah and well, a good example of that is the following; narcissism in general is something I share some traits with except for grandiose fantasies. I just don't do that one. I would feel really sick if I tried that, it's just not something I like and more than that, I simply cannot imagine how I'd function in life while living in such fantasies. So that's pretty foreign to me. Is this again because of Se > Ne? I just don't understand why enjoyment of stuff would have to be connected to fantasies.

    Do you know anyone who's 7w8 with Se instead of Ne? If so, how do they connect gluttony to intellectual/mental stuff?

    PS: I know Naranjo himself explicitly correlates Ne with 7 and Se with 8, but I have not yet seen a reason to believe that this is a total 100% correlation

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    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Yeah, I don't relate that much, unless what I mentioned as mental activities count. Do they?
    I think what you've mentioned does count.

    Pink's an Ne-dom, so there's sort of an inherent mental scattering. Your mind doesn't have to be scattered between ideas to be 7y. The key is glutting on things you find fascinating--for 7s, they want as many of these lil experiences as possible. They are mental fascinations and plans as much as experiences in the physical world. Obviously, your cognitive preferences will dictate how you focus this.
    I've read on since then and there's some more bits in Naranjo's book on this gluttony topic that's not totally clear to me. Naranjo talks about entitlement to gratification too and yep I do relate to that one. I still don't relate to much of the additional parts on fantasy, imagination blahblah and well, a good example of that is the following; narcissism in general is something I share some traits with except for grandiose fantasies. I just don't do that one. I would feel really sick if I tried that, it's just not something I like and more than that, I simply cannot imagine how I'd function in life while living in such fantasies. So that's pretty foreign to me. Is this again because of Se > Ne? I just don't understand why enjoyment of stuff would have to be connected to fantasies.
    I think, again, you're suggesting differences in cognition here, rather than differences between 7 and 8. Users of functions often feel overwhelmed by using their opposite preference--for example, Ne-users feel like their overly ruminating when they use Ni, and Ni-users feel like their mind is exploding when they use Ne.

    Many 7 descriptions, likewise, have an ENxP bias, which may be causing some confusion.

    Also, 7s are an anxiety type, meaning they use their minds to navigate uncertainties, in this case, their inner worlds. Naturally, this is going to lead to a more intellectual stance, and planning is going to be one of their ways of coping with inner turmoil. It can be literal planning about the "real" world, or it can be an escape into the world of imagination. Either way, the imagination is engaged in planning for something better, but the nature of that engagement will vary depending on their cognitive bias.

    PS: I know Naranjo himself explicitly correlates Ne with 7 and Se with 8, but I have not yet seen a reason to believe that this is a total 100% correlation
    It's not. There are Ne-dom 2s, 3s, 4s, 6s, 7s, and 8s. There are Se-users of the same type. Correlating cognitive functions with enneatypes is a terrible idea and I frankly disregard much of what Naranjo (or any author) says on this topic.

    Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes.

  6. #6
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    I kind of think of it being more as "craving" than gluttony. I say that because I experience pleasure from anticipation. Well, as long as I'm sure that I'm going to actually get what I want. I could be simple things such as having a glass on wine later, plans I may have made for the weekend, or a treat that I have hoarded to enjoy by myself. Sometimes the anticipation can be more pleasurable than the act and I may not get much enjoyment from the act because of this. I feel anxious and pretty unhappy when I don't have something to look forward to because my mind can become occupied with that...instead of less pleasant things.

    Not sure if that made sense but that's what it feels like to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I think what you've mentioned does count.

    Pink's an Ne-dom, so there's sort of an inherent mental scattering. Your mind doesn't have to be scattered between ideas to be 7y. The key is glutting on things you find fascinating--for 7s, they want as many of these lil experiences as possible. They are mental fascinations and plans as much as experiences in the physical world. Obviously, your cognitive preferences will dictate how you focus this.
    The bolded means they want variety yeah? I don't always... Only case I want a sort of variety is when I want many of the same kind of thing. Generally I have an inclination to just get deeper into the same thing, repeat it and so on, intensity is nice including intensity of focus.

    Anyway the differentiation - beyond variety vs intensity - between lust (8) and gluttony (7) is apparently also this, the former is an active acquiring of the target/desire, the latter is passive enjoyment, but I need to understand that a bit more. Does it mean 7's just want the easy to get enjoyments?

    This one was at ocean moonshine btw I'll quote it: "In the traditional Enneagram, the passion of type Eight is said to be “lust.” This should not be confused with the insistent desire to enjoy the pleasures of the senses, sexual or otherwise, which is more characteristic of the gluttony of type Seven. The lust of type Eight has an expansive quality to it – rather than the need to “take in,” the lust of type Eight manifests in the need to push outwards- to assert the self in order to attain the objects of desire."

    Hmm also, entitlement, it's mentioned for 7 by Naranjo (and elsewhere), what does that exactly mean, assuming 8 doesn't have it?


    I think, again, you're suggesting differences in cognition here, rather than differences between 7 and 8. Users of functions often feel overwhelmed by using their opposite preference--for example, Ne-users feel like their overly ruminating when they use Ni, and Ni-users feel like their mind is exploding when they use Ne.
    I'm not sure how opposite preferences come up here? That's Si to Se in my case.


    Many 7 descriptions, likewise, have an ENxP bias, which may be causing some confusion.
    I noticed.


    Also, 7s are an anxiety type, meaning they use their minds to navigate uncertainties, in this case, their inner worlds. Naturally, this is going to lead to a more intellectual stance, and planning is going to be one of their ways of coping with inner turmoil. It can be literal planning about the "real" world, or it can be an escape into the world of imagination. Either way, the imagination is engaged in planning for something better, but the nature of that engagement will vary depending on their cognitive bias.
    Can you explain more about this uncertainty in the inner world? I didn't understand that. Well in general I'm not sure I understand what the 7's mind is like when not occupied. What exactly is so terrible about boredom? Any 7's here who can describe that?


    It's not. There are Ne-dom 2s, 3s, 4s, 6s, 7s, and 8s. There are Se-users of the same type. Correlating cognitive functions with enneatypes is a terrible idea and I frankly disregard much of what Naranjo (or any author) says on this topic.

    Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes.
    Right, though sometimes one has to wonder when the two seem to overlap so completely. In some cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    I kind of think of it being more as "craving" than gluttony. I say that because I experience pleasure from anticipation. Well, as long as I'm sure that I'm going to actually get what I want. I could be simple things such as having a glass on wine later, plans I may have made for the weekend, or a treat that I have hoarded to enjoy by myself. Sometimes the anticipation can be more pleasurable than the act and I may not get much enjoyment from the act because of this. I feel anxious and pretty unhappy when I don't have something to look forward to because my mind can become occupied with that...instead of less pleasant things.

    Not sure if that made sense but that's what it feels like to me.
    Thanks. How long does the anticipation phase last for you?

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    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Up until I get into the experience I've been anticipating. It kinda blends into it. I only do this with things I'm planning to do or what's possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Up until I get into the experience I've been anticipating. It kinda blends into it. I only do this with things I'm planning to do or what's possible.
    I see. I don't do that, if I think of something nice that will happen in the future, I will think of it for a second, that's nice, sure.. then I will go deal with other things and not give it another thought until it's actually happening. I just don't use imagination for this.

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