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[Type 7] Naranjo's interpretation of Gluttony (enneagram type 7's vice)

valaki

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Some things don't quite add up for me here. I'll quote the relevant passages and then explain my problem.

In the Christian world “gluttony” is included among the seven “cardinal sins,” yet its usual
understanding as a gluttony for food only makes it appear somewhat less sinful than others. It
would not be included among the basic sinful dispositions, however, if the original meaning of
the term were not—as is the case with avarice and lust—something beyond the literal. If we
understand gluttony more broadly, in the sense of a passion for pleasure, we may say that this
definitely is a capital sin—inasmuch as it implies a deviation from an individual’s potential for
self-actualization; hedonism is binding upon the psyche and involves (through confusion) an
obstacle in the search for the summum bonum and a snare. We may say that a weakness for
pleasure constitutes a generalized susceptibility to temptation, and in this light we can
understand Chaucer’s statement in his “The Parson’s Tale” to the effect that “He that is addicted
to this sin of gluttony may withstand no other sin.”

When I first heard Ichazo’s ideas of Protoanalysis, this was in Spanish, and he used the
word “charlatan” for the ennea-type VII individual (and “charlatanism” for the fixation). This
word also needs to be understood in more than a literal manner: that the glutton is one who
approaches the world through the strategy of words and “good reasons”—one who
manipulates through the intellect.


Well at this point, I don't quite understand why such a physical thing as passion for pleasure would be related to the intellect of the "glutton".

I guess that's probably part of why I don't understand type 7.

Someone explain please?

Thanks for any help.
 

pinkgraffiti

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ahah i was eating a sweet while going through the forums and seeing this thread made me feel like i was being caught in the act lol :blush: \guilty

mm i'm not sure if i understand your question. by "intellect of the glutton" do you mean the fact that the 7 is in the mental triad? if so, i was also surprised with i first read naranjo with its focus on "gluttony" because of the enneagram descriptions of the mental activity of the 7 i'd read previously, but then i saw myself completely in the description.
how are the two things connected? the way i see it (actually, the way i feel it in my personal experience), i have a constant mental activity going on. which has a nervous streak to it, because it includes all the things i'd like to do + all the things that are happening in the real world and that i'm connecting to other things (ne) and i also tend to plan on how to avoid future difficulties, obstacles, etc. but it's not a well thought out thing, it's just a stream of mental activity.
anyway, this constant stream does not really have a direction, and i sometimes crave a purpose, and i kind of feel compelled to satisfy that craving through "eating" many things. well, if i had a sense of purpose, maybe i could be content with knowing what the goal is and not want everything all the time. but since my mind is constantly searching for new information to add to the already existing information and to somehow find the "piece of the puzzle", i am happy to "eat" experiences, food, etc, anything, that will leave me satisfied for the present moment, or feel that I'm "at peace" in a way, and that will make me forget my mental anxiety in regards to the future.
i don't know if that rings any bells with you. i guess you are wondering if you are 8w7 or 7w8? but if you don't identify with naranjo's description you're probably an 8w7?
 

valaki

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ahah i was eating a sweet while going through the forums and seeing this thread made me feel like i was being caught in the act lol :blush: \guilty

LOLOLOL ;p

I thought 7's were shameless though? :p


mm i'm not sure if i understand your question. by "intellect of the glutton" do you mean the fact that the 7 is in the mental triad? if so, i was also surprised with i first read naranjo with its focus on "gluttony" because of the enneagram descriptions of the mental activity of the 7 i'd read previously, but then i saw myself completely in the description.
how are the two things connected? the way i see it (actually, the way i feel it in my personal experience), i have a constant mental activity going on. which has a nervous streak to it, because it includes all the things i'd like to do + all the things that are happening in the real world and that i'm connecting to other things (ne) and i also tend to plan on how to avoid future difficulties, obstacles, etc. but it's not a well thought out thing, it's just a stream of mental activity.
anyway, this constant stream does not really have a direction, and i sometimes crave a purpose, and i kind of feel compelled to satisfy that craving through "eating" many things. well, if i had a sense of purpose, maybe i could be content with knowing what the goal is and not want everything all the time. but since my mind is constantly searching for new information to add to the already existing information and to somehow find the "piece of the puzzle", i am happy to "eat" experiences, food, etc, anything, that will leave me satisfied for the present moment, or feel that I'm "at peace" in a way, and that will make me forget my mental anxiety in regards to the future.
i don't know if that rings any bells with you. i guess you are wondering if you are 8w7 or 7w8? but if you don't identify with naranjo's description you're probably an 8w7?

Thanks, this is such a really good description of what a 7 is like from the inside :)

By that intellect thing I just quoted Naranjo, I was reading this and it struck me as strange. That's because I think of gluttony (as a generic word, not necessarily 7's gluttony) as something physical, nothing to do with the intellect.

For me the closest to "mental gluttony" is enjoying interacting with people as that can include talking too, not just "doing", talking is clearly more a mental activity than doing whatever. Though that's more online than offline, offline other things take my attention more than talking. Or if I read a good book that has a lot of action going on in it etc., the act of reading is mental. I don't otherwise relate to the stuff you're talking about. My mind feels exploding trying to imagine your scattered mental world :)

I do like having a sense of purpose but if I don't have it I just enjoy whatever, in the moment. If I read above mentioned book then I just read the book focused on the action described in it. If I'm doing something then I focus on the "doing". And I like it that way. So having a sense of purpose is good not because it would make me not want everything at once, no, it's good because then I can strive for something really hard and that in itself is very enjoyable.

I'm happy to er, "eat", for the sake of satisfaction itself. I don't understand the part about being at peace. You meant that in terms of less mental anxiety then?

Yes I've been wondering about the 8w7 vs 7w8 thing. But if 7w8's are like this by definition, then nevermind...
 

valaki

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[MENTION=13377]pinkgraffiti[/MENTION]

"good post. so, but did you mean you don't identify with this definition then?"

(Not sure why you sent that as a reputation comment)

Yeah, I don't relate that much, unless what I mentioned as mental activities count. Do they? I've thought about that too and I'm not sure, because these activities don't involve imagination much. As strange as it may sound, it's true. When I read a story, it's like living it, not just imagining it in my head in pictures or something. The same for talking to others, I'm not inclined to explicitly think too much inside my head, I'm just into living the whole thing, the interaction itself, responding/reacting to people etc etc. (The only exception is some logical stuff but that one's not related to any kind of gluttony.) Am I making much sense here? It's hard to explain. It's probably related to the fact that I don't have much Ne, I have Se instead.

I've read on since then and there's some more bits in Naranjo's book on this gluttony topic that's not totally clear to me. Naranjo talks about entitlement to gratification too and yep I do relate to that one. I still don't relate to much of the additional parts on fantasy, imagination blahblah and well, a good example of that is the following; narcissism in general is something I share some traits with except for grandiose fantasies. I just don't do that one. I would feel really sick if I tried that, it's just not something I like and more than that, I simply cannot imagine how I'd function in life while living in such fantasies. So that's pretty foreign to me. Is this again because of Se > Ne? I just don't understand why enjoyment of stuff would have to be connected to fantasies.

Do you know anyone who's 7w8 with Se instead of Ne? If so, how do they connect gluttony to intellectual/mental stuff?

PS: I know Naranjo himself explicitly correlates Ne with 7 and Se with 8, but I have not yet seen a reason to believe that this is a total 100% correlation
 

Chad of the OttomanEmpire

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Yeah, I don't relate that much, unless what I mentioned as mental activities count. Do they?
I think what you've mentioned does count.

Pink's an Ne-dom, so there's sort of an inherent mental scattering. Your mind doesn't have to be scattered between ideas to be 7y. The key is glutting on things you find fascinating--for 7s, they want as many of these lil experiences as possible. They are mental fascinations and plans as much as experiences in the physical world. Obviously, your cognitive preferences will dictate how you focus this.
I've read on since then and there's some more bits in Naranjo's book on this gluttony topic that's not totally clear to me. Naranjo talks about entitlement to gratification too and yep I do relate to that one. I still don't relate to much of the additional parts on fantasy, imagination blahblah and well, a good example of that is the following; narcissism in general is something I share some traits with except for grandiose fantasies. I just don't do that one. I would feel really sick if I tried that, it's just not something I like and more than that, I simply cannot imagine how I'd function in life while living in such fantasies. So that's pretty foreign to me. Is this again because of Se > Ne? I just don't understand why enjoyment of stuff would have to be connected to fantasies.
I think, again, you're suggesting differences in cognition here, rather than differences between 7 and 8. Users of functions often feel overwhelmed by using their opposite preference--for example, Ne-users feel like their overly ruminating when they use Ni, and Ni-users feel like their mind is exploding when they use Ne.

Many 7 descriptions, likewise, have an ENxP bias, which may be causing some confusion.

Also, 7s are an anxiety type, meaning they use their minds to navigate uncertainties, in this case, their inner worlds. Naturally, this is going to lead to a more intellectual stance, and planning is going to be one of their ways of coping with inner turmoil. It can be literal planning about the "real" world, or it can be an escape into the world of imagination. Either way, the imagination is engaged in planning for something better, but the nature of that engagement will vary depending on their cognitive bias.

PS: I know Naranjo himself explicitly correlates Ne with 7 and Se with 8, but I have not yet seen a reason to believe that this is a total 100% correlation
It's not. There are Ne-dom 2s, 3s, 4s, 6s, 7s, and 8s. There are Se-users of the same type. Correlating cognitive functions with enneatypes is a terrible idea and I frankly disregard much of what Naranjo (or any author) says on this topic.

Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes.
 

Redbone

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I kind of think of it being more as "craving" than gluttony. I say that because I experience pleasure from anticipation. Well, as long as I'm sure that I'm going to actually get what I want. I could be simple things such as having a glass on wine later, plans I may have made for the weekend, or a treat that I have hoarded to enjoy by myself. Sometimes the anticipation can be more pleasurable than the act and I may not get much enjoyment from the act because of this. I feel anxious and pretty unhappy when I don't have something to look forward to because my mind can become occupied with that...instead of less pleasant things.

Not sure if that made sense but that's what it feels like to me.
 

valaki

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I think what you've mentioned does count.

Pink's an Ne-dom, so there's sort of an inherent mental scattering. Your mind doesn't have to be scattered between ideas to be 7y. The key is glutting on things you find fascinating--for 7s, they want as many of these lil experiences as possible. They are mental fascinations and plans as much as experiences in the physical world. Obviously, your cognitive preferences will dictate how you focus this.

The bolded means they want variety yeah? I don't always... Only case I want a sort of variety is when I want many of the same kind of thing. Generally I have an inclination to just get deeper into the same thing, repeat it and so on, intensity is nice including intensity of focus.

Anyway the differentiation - beyond variety vs intensity - between lust (8) and gluttony (7) is apparently also this, the former is an active acquiring of the target/desire, the latter is passive enjoyment, but I need to understand that a bit more. Does it mean 7's just want the easy to get enjoyments?

This one was at ocean moonshine btw :) I'll quote it: "In the traditional Enneagram, the passion of type Eight is said to be “lust.” This should not be confused with the insistent desire to enjoy the pleasures of the senses, sexual or otherwise, which is more characteristic of the gluttony of type Seven. The lust of type Eight has an expansive quality to it – rather than the need to “take in,” the lust of type Eight manifests in the need to push outwards- to assert the self in order to attain the objects of desire."

Hmm also, entitlement, it's mentioned for 7 by Naranjo (and elsewhere), what does that exactly mean, assuming 8 doesn't have it?


I think, again, you're suggesting differences in cognition here, rather than differences between 7 and 8. Users of functions often feel overwhelmed by using their opposite preference--for example, Ne-users feel like their overly ruminating when they use Ni, and Ni-users feel like their mind is exploding when they use Ne.

I'm not sure how opposite preferences come up here? That's Si to Se in my case.


Many 7 descriptions, likewise, have an ENxP bias, which may be causing some confusion.

I noticed.


Also, 7s are an anxiety type, meaning they use their minds to navigate uncertainties, in this case, their inner worlds. Naturally, this is going to lead to a more intellectual stance, and planning is going to be one of their ways of coping with inner turmoil. It can be literal planning about the "real" world, or it can be an escape into the world of imagination. Either way, the imagination is engaged in planning for something better, but the nature of that engagement will vary depending on their cognitive bias.

Can you explain more about this uncertainty in the inner world? I didn't understand that. Well in general I'm not sure I understand what the 7's mind is like when not occupied. What exactly is so terrible about boredom? Any 7's here who can describe that? :)


It's not. There are Ne-dom 2s, 3s, 4s, 6s, 7s, and 8s. There are Se-users of the same type. Correlating cognitive functions with enneatypes is a terrible idea and I frankly disregard much of what Naranjo (or any author) says on this topic.

Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes.

Right, though sometimes one has to wonder when the two seem to overlap so completely. In some cases.
 

valaki

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I kind of think of it being more as "craving" than gluttony. I say that because I experience pleasure from anticipation. Well, as long as I'm sure that I'm going to actually get what I want. I could be simple things such as having a glass on wine later, plans I may have made for the weekend, or a treat that I have hoarded to enjoy by myself. Sometimes the anticipation can be more pleasurable than the act and I may not get much enjoyment from the act because of this. I feel anxious and pretty unhappy when I don't have something to look forward to because my mind can become occupied with that...instead of less pleasant things.

Not sure if that made sense but that's what it feels like to me.

Thanks. :) How long does the anticipation phase last for you?
 

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Up until I get into the experience I've been anticipating. It kinda blends into it. I only do this with things I'm planning to do or what's possible.
 

valaki

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Up until I get into the experience I've been anticipating. It kinda blends into it. I only do this with things I'm planning to do or what's possible.

I see. I don't do that, if I think of something nice that will happen in the future, I will think of it for a second, that's nice, sure.. then I will go deal with other things and not give it another thought until it's actually happening. I just don't use imagination for this.
 

valaki

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[MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION]

You are an Se-dom 7, so I would be really curious hearing from you how 7w8 plays out in a Se-dom type. Everyone else so far wrote about Ne-doms :p I am curious about how you experience the aspects of gluttony. Do you ever do future oriented planning/fantasy, anticipation, whatnot? How about variety? Passive enjoyment vs active fighting to get what you want?

(As for the latter; I see you do type as Se-ego type in socionics, they like fighting like that, it would be pretty interesting to see how that's still a 7.....)

Oh yeah and it was [MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION] who recommended I ask you about 7w8.
 

Halla74

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Hello there! :cheese:

You are an Se-dom 7, so I would be really curious hearing from you how 7w8 plays out in a Se-dom type. Everyone else so far wrote about Ne-doms :p

Sure thing, I'll be glad to share these things from my perspective.

I am curious about how you experience the aspects of gluttony.

It's interesting how I experience gluttony.
Yes, I realize it is at the essence of that which defines 7s, and I make no claims whatsoever to be exempted from that.
However, as a self-aware being who holds himself accountable for his actions, I hold my pre-disposition to over-indulge by default in check for many reasons.

Among them:
(1) Experience has taught me that while it is foolish to turn upon my nature, that does not mean I must give into any and all of my impulses.

(2) Self Awareness and Realization of Opportunity Cost in Life = Over-indulging in "X" might result in foregoing the chance of experiencing "Y" - and if I value "Y" more than "X" - it's silly for me to do so.

(3) Balance is Precious = In general, I make good decisions quickly. However, I will also clarification to this as follows. I make the *BEST* decisions when I am at a state of *BALANCE* - and to me, that is when my head, my heart, my body, my gut, and my spirit are all in good order, and are all present in my consciousness. The greater the importance of any decision I must make, the better off all those affected by that decision (and not just me) will be if I am able to make it from a balanced state - and perspective.

(4) If all my life's priorities were in good order, and I had an unexpected windfall of significant magnitude, make no doubt about it - some would be stashed for a rainy day, and the rest would be spent on one hell of a vacation with my family.

(5) Gone are the days of rampant gluttony for the sake of gluttony in my life. I do not look back on them in regret, not at all. I look back at them as moments in time when I had access to drive a ridiculously fast sports car, but did not have the experience needed to fully realize it's potential on the road. After a few less than perfect runs on the track of life I'm a much better driver :9436:... and know what to do with my car, for my sake, and for the sake of everyone else on the road. :harley:

Do you ever do future oriented planning/fantasy, anticipation, whatnot?

I don't fantasize. I am very much in touch with my dreams however - and by dreams I mean "that which I wish to be" - and not "floating in a land where unicorns fart cupcakes." :unicorn: :fullload:
"Anticipation" is also of limited utility to me as it doesn't result in anything but more thought, more want, more apprehension, etc.
I set out to accomplish things. I evaluate my current position, recognize my desired outcome, perform a gap analysis between where I am and where I wish to be, and then systematically plan the steps to bridge that gap, and set out to accomplish the objective.

How about variety?

Allow me to split this out into two concepts:

For inanimate things, food, drink, novel experiences, etc: Variety is the spice of life! :cheers:

For people, beliefs, convictions, and principles: These are to be treasured as they are, and protected at all costs. :2ar15:

Passive enjoyment vs active fighting to get what you want?

Passive enjoyment to me is equivocated to watching a movie. I put the time and cost of admission into the experience, sit down and watch it, and what I get out of it is what I get out of it. That's about as passive as I can be.

When it comes to professional or academic matters then I am all about ACTIVE FIGHTING:
Do what needs to be done to accomplish the objective at hand. That does not mean it is necessary to be a Machiavellian fucktard all the time. That's hardly the case at all. In this day and age it is way more important to build alliances, and to help others achieve their goals and to use the collaborative efforts of such partnerships to make your goals happen - just as much as it is my part to bust my ass and deliver drop dead, world class, works of excellence for anything that has my name on it. Being an army of one is a great gift. However, it does not mean that you should fight every battle alone just for the sake of doing so. That's wasteful, and not at all strategic.

When it comes to interpersonal matters I'm all about SINCERITY:
People are the treasure of this life. Surround yourself with good people, and be active in their lives, and they will be active in yours, and all of you will be better off because of it, and will wind up making the world a better place in the course of your daily lives. It is not possible to establish good, meaningful, trusting relationships with people unless you are of good intent, and sincere. Liars and scoundrels will expose themselves in due time, and more often than not in short order. I don't bullshit people, and I don't let people bullshit me. Life is too short for bullshit. Show up, make your case, do your best and let the good times roll.

(As for the latter; I see you do type as Se-ego type in socionics, they like fighting like that, it would be pretty interesting to see how that's still a 7.....)

I believe I explained that above. It's all about what you are fighting for, and that will layout what options make sense in your quest for achieving as such.
Any additional clarifications needed on this, please let me know.

Oh yeah and it was [color=blue [MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION][/color] who recommended I ask you about 7w8.

[MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION] has a *VERY* good understanding of the 7w8 and 8w7 mindsets, and is able to back up theory with life experience via knowing people of each type.
Small.wonder is very wise, and when wise people speak, I listen.

Have a great day!

:solidarity:

-Halla74
 

valaki

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Hello there! :cheese:

Hi :)


Sure thing, I'll be glad to share these things from my perspective.

Thanks.


It's interesting how I experience gluttony.
Yes, I realize it is at the essence of that which defines 7s, and I make no claims whatsoever to be exempted from that.
However, as a self-aware being who holds himself accountable for his actions, I hold my pre-disposition to over-indulge by default in check for many reasons.

OK, that's pretty cool.


I don't fantasize. I am very much in touch with my dreams however - and by dreams I mean "that which I wish to be" - and not "floating in a land where unicorns fart cupcakes." :unicorn: :fullload:

So do you ponder these dreams pretty regularly?


"Anticipation" is also of limited utility to me as it doesn't result in anything but more thought, more want, more apprehension, etc.

So are you trying to say you are very much capable of prolonged anticipation with more mental activity associated with it, you just learned not to care?


I set out to accomplish things. I evaluate my current position, recognize my desired outcome, perform a gap analysis between where I am and where I wish to be, and then systematically plan the steps to bridge that gap, and set out to accomplish the objective.

I relate to that


Allow me to split this out into two concepts:

For inanimate things, food, drink, novel experiences, etc: Variety is the spice of life! :cheers:

Ah eh I guess you are totally 7 :p


Passive enjoyment to me is equivocated to watching a movie. I put the time and cost of admission into the experience, sit down and watch it, and what I get out of it is what I get out of it. That's about as passive as I can be.

Yeah, watching a film is pretty passive, too much of it is too passive to me. Do you relate to that?


When it comes to professional or academic matters then I am all about ACTIVE FIGHTING:
Do what needs to be done to accomplish the objective at hand. That does not mean it is necessary to be a Machiavellian fucktard all the time. That's hardly the case at all. In this day and age it is way more important to build alliances, and to help others achieve their goals and to use the collaborative efforts of such partnerships to make your goals happen - just as much as it is my part to bust my ass and deliver drop dead, world class, works of excellence for anything that has my name on it. Being an army of one is a great gift. However, it does not mean that you should fight every battle alone just for the sake of doing so. That's wasteful, and not at all strategic.

OK, I see.


When it comes to interpersonal matters I'm all about SINCERITY:
People are the treasure of this life. Surround yourself with good people, and be active in their lives, and they will be active in yours, and all of you will be better off because of it, and will wind up making the world a better place in the course of your daily lives. It is not possible to establish good, meaningful, trusting relationships with people unless you are of good intent, and sincere. Liars and scoundrels will expose themselves in due time, and more often than not in short order. I don't bullshit people, and I don't let people bullshit me. Life is too short for bullshit. Show up, make your case, do your best and let the good times roll.

Okay I'm certainly not disagreeing but how was this related to the above?


I believe I explained that above. It's all about what you are fighting for, and that will layout what options make sense in your quest for achieving as such.
Any additional clarifications needed on this, please let me know.

Yes I would like additional clarification, do you see your 7-ness in that? Where you wrote about "ACTIVE FIGHTING". How do you see 7 in it? Or would you say it's something else?


Thanks again ;)
 

Halla74

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You're quite welcome.

So do you ponder these dreams pretty regularly?

First, I guess we need to agree on what we are considering "dreams" to be in the context of this conversation.

In simplest terms, I think of them in terms of:
- Things I'd like to do, as in experience in real life...
- Things I'd like to accomplish...
- Options I'd like to have in the next 1, 2, or 5 years of my life...

- things like that.

So, if the above is my from the hip definition of what dreams are to me, then how often do I ponder them?
Mostly these thoughts come to me at times when the many things I seem to always be doing at once begin to "spin down" - and there is slack in my schedule, and thus in my consciousness.
NOTE: I am not one who tends to be at rest, but at this point in my life I understand the purpose of rest, and the need for me to have it at reasonable intervals in order to keep the vortex that is my life sustainable and enjoyable.
When things slow down I think about how I wish for things to be when they rev up again, in a number of contexts.
That way - I am focused on those outcomes - if even but subliminally, and thus engaged in making them happen.
Of course for things that have an obviously high priority - those will be worked on actively, and consciously...

Of course, such thoughts can be forced into one's consciousness if events of significance occur unexpectedly, and require such contemplation, but I'm talking above from the perspective of things within my own locus of control.

So are you trying to say you are very much capable of prolonged anticipation with more mental activity associated with it, you just learned not to care?

Mmmm - I don't know if that's it. :thinking:
If thoughts/ideas/feelings don't resonate at or above a certain threshold for me to consider them a dream/future aspiration then they don't really register with me, and I don't contemplate them further.
Perhaps I'm not clear as to what you mean by "prolonged anticipation?"
I don't really identify with anticipation, as I feel it more often than not leads to overthinking things, and allowing unrealistic expectations to manifest.
If I commit to trying to make something happen, then I go for it, and if turns out as I planned, I am happy, and if it doesn't - I learn from the experience and move on.

I relate to that

:hifive:

Ah eh I guess you are totally 7 :p

Yes indeed, except for my 8-wing and my Sx/So. :newwink:

Yeah, watching a film is pretty passive, too much of it is too passive to me. Do you relate to that?

Yes, I can barely sit still. Seriously.
A film was as generic an example as I could think of to quickly communicate that point...

OK, I see.

10-4...

Okay I'm certainly not disagreeing but how was this related to the above?

Simple. Interpersonal relationships are not something I consider to be within the realm of things that conquest is warranted for.
Introducing yourself to someone and making effort to get to know them out of genuine interest is of an example of acting out of good intention and sincerity.
However, introducing yourself to someone in the hopes of acquiring wealth/influence/etc out of your relations with them while feigning genuine interest is deceitful.

I have no issues with anyone approaching another person and stating up front that they have an interest in establishing a business/politically motivated relationship with them - if that is what they want to do, and they state it up front. That's not deceitful in my book. If it's done incorrectly it will appear sleazy and slimy nonetheless. However if the pitch makes sense to both parties then things will likely work out.

So, in my opinion, systematically manipulating another person for reasons of accomplishing an objective of some kind is not appropriate. It's sleazy.

There are things in this life that warrant kicking ass and taking names.
And there are things in this life that warrant putting one's best forward and committing to the same going forward.
I know where I draw the line between the two, and I don't confuse my thoughts or actions in my relations with either.

Yes I would like additional clarification, do you see your 7-ness in that? Where you wrote about "ACTIVE FIGHTING". How do you see 7 in it? Or would you say it's something else?

Yes, I see a lot 7-ness in that actually, but the mode of pursuit, and my ardent standpoint on things is likely an expression of 8.

Thanks again ;)

Absolutely, any time.
Feel free to ask whatever else comes to mind.

:solidarity:

-Halla74
 

Redbone

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Also, 7s are an anxiety type, meaning they use their minds to navigate uncertainties, in this case, their inner worlds. Naturally, this is going to lead to a more intellectual stance, and planning is going to be one of their ways of coping with inner turmoil. It can be literal planning about the "real" world, or it can be an escape into the world of imagination. Either way, the imagination is engaged in planning for something better, but the nature of that engagement will vary depending on their cognitive bias.

Sanjuro, this is excellent! I didn't read your post before I wrote mine but yeah...this is spot on.
 

valaki

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First, I guess we need to agree on what we are considering "dreams" to be in the context of this conversation.

In simplest terms, I think of them in terms of:
- Things I'd like to do, as in experience in real life...
- Things I'd like to accomplish...
- Options I'd like to have in the next 1, 2, or 5 years of my life...

- things like that

Yes that's fine.


Mostly these thoughts come to me at times when the many things I seem to always be doing at once begin to "spin down" - and there is slack in my schedule, and thus in my consciousness.

Do you get anxious then?


Perhaps I'm not clear as to what you mean by "prolonged anticipation?"

What [MENTION=9883]Redbone[/MENTION] said in this thread earlier, posts #6 and #9.


Yes indeed, except for my 8-wing and my Sx/So. :newwink:

Okay and originally how did you decide on 7 for yourself?



What? :eek:


Simple. Interpersonal relationships are not something I consider to be within the realm of things that conquest is warranted for.

OK, I see.


Yes, I see a lot 7-ness in that actually, but the mode of pursuit, and my ardent standpoint on things is likely an expression of 8.

What's the 7-ness in it then?
 

Halla74

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Do you get anxious then?

I honestly can't say that me getting anxious is a norm whenever such times of life planning naturally seem to occur. :coffee:

But the reality is, I'm human, and some things do make me anxious from time to time. :horror:

If I had to guess as to what those things might be I really couldn't give you anything more accurate than a categorical definition, and that would be "anything that pops out of nowhere and threatens to wreak havoc on the stability of the family life I've worked so hard to create and maintain for my wife and kids."

Let's face it, I'm a 7, I'm a 7w8, I'm a 7w8 Sx/So - and I've got a SERIOUS wild side - and so all that has been allowed to express itself at this point in my life, and I've recognized those things as MY NATURE, but evolved far past the point where I ever thought they were my PURPOSE or my DESTINY. I'm totally at peace with my nature; I love it in fact - it's part of what makes me who I am, but I'll not let it control me - or cause harm to those I love. Maturity and experience allows all that you are to find their place within you, to be at peace, and allow you to live your life in comfort and success.

What [MENTION=9883]Redbone[/MENTION] said in this thread earlier, posts #6 and #9.

I totally get what Redbone is saying in posts #6 and #9.
As [MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION] said - everyone's implementation is different.

My modus operandi is simple. I do the best I can at whatever it is I'm doing, and I have fun doing it. I do that ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. In the course of all this you bet I plug in whatever I want/need to make it all worth it for me. No one else is going to! :laugh: And so because of this mindset, and my consistent implementation of it, I honestly believe that I've been able to factor out alot of the anxiolytic feelings experienced by 7s; feelings that I did feel alot more often when I was younger than I do now. When I was younger, like most people. I didn't know myself as well as I do now, and I didn't understand what the common (and also most severe) stressors of life were. But now I do.

Don't get me wrong, I am not without anxiousness, but I simply can't express when it affects me in a pattern of some kind related to my levels of activity, or thoughts about each day. If it comes to me later I'll reply as such, but I'm simply drawing a blank on this right now.

Okay and originally how did you decide on 7 for yourself?

(1) I took two different Enneagram tests at two different points in my life, and scored 7 the first time, and 7w8 the second time.

(2) I read the E7, E8, and E6 type descriptions at great length and in detail and realized that E7 was the decription that fit me best of all, however I also recognized I had a good dash of E8 in me.

(3) Over time I found enough material to lock-in 7w8 as my E-type; the Sx/So were found along the way also...

(4) Also, in the spirit of full disclosure, I was born with a "7w8 Sx/So" tattoo on my ass. Just kidding. :rotfl:

(5) On a more serious note, my Dad is an ESTJ 8w7 - and I'm alot like him, but very much so my own person.



I said:
When it comes to professional or academic matters then I am all about ACTIVE FIGHTING:
Do what needs to be done to accomplish the objective at hand. That does not mean it is necessary to be a Machiavellian fucktard all the time. That's hardly the case at all. In this day and age it is way more important to build alliances, and to help others achieve their goals and to use the collaborative efforts of such partnerships to make your goals happen - just as much as it is my part to bust my ass and deliver drop dead, world class, works of excellence for anything that has my name on it. Being an army of one is a great gift. However, it does not mean that you should fight every battle alone just for the sake of doing so. That's wasteful, and not at all strategic."


Then you said:
"OK, I see."


Then I said:
"10-4"

:happy:

What's the 7-ness in it then?

Here's the Type 7 description from the Enneagram Institute's page. The reason I like it as a generic frame of reference for 7s is that it points out a wide variety of the predispositions 7s are typically noted to have - both one's most expect, but also those that are just as relevant but that don't stick out in most people's minds when they think of 7s becasue they don't fit the "E7 Wild Child" stereotype.

In the description below I bolded the words/traits that are indeed those of 7s, but that I think are overlooked more often than not considering the reputation 7s typically have for being gregarious fun-loving people.

And when reading the bolded words below, please consider this summary of them: To be a person with any degree of freedom, have the ability to acquire things, to engage in a variety of experiences, and to focus one's talents on worthwhile goals most often necessitates being gainfully employed. Being gainfully employed requires consistently exhibiting responsibility of one or more varieties and applying one's talents to profitable undertakings. These are not typically the accomplishments of scatterred, frustrated party animals. Although 7s who are gainfully employed have in many ways the "fuel supply" for them to recognize their heart's desires, they are better yet served when they INTEGRATE their NEEDS with their OBLIGATIONS. My career is very challenging, I am busy to a terrifying degree by most people's standards, BUT over the years I have found a way to apply my skills to ENDEAVORS of PURPOSE and to use them during my work in ways that are FUN.

Enneagram Ring 7 - The Enthusiast

FROM: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/typeseven.asp

The Busy, Variety-Seeking type:
Spontaneous, Versatile, Acquisitive, and Scattered...

Type Seven in Brief

Sevens are extroverted, optimistic, versatile, and spontaneous.
Playful, high-spirited, and practical, they can also misapply their many talents, becoming over- extended, scattered, and undisciplined.
They constantly seek new and exciting experiences, but can become distracted and exhausted by staying on the go.
They typically have problems with impatience and impulsiveness.

At their Best: they focus their talents on worthwhile goals, becoming appreciative, joyous, and satisfied.

Basic Fear:
Of being deprived and in pain

Basic Desire:
To be satisfied and content—to have their needs fulfilled

Enneagram Seven with a Six-Wing: "The Entertainer"
Enneagram Seven with an Eight-Wing: "The Realist"

Key Motivations:
Want to maintain their freedom and happiness...

...to avoid missing out on worthwhile experiences,

...to keep themselves excited and occupied,

...to avoid and discharge pain.

<--------------END 7 TYPE DESCRIPTION--------------------------->

A therapist I worked with years ago while learning to manage my ADHD asked me:
"Alex, what do you consider fun?" :glasses:

- to which I answered -

"To me, FUN is a MINDSET. I have fun doing almost anything each and every day. When I go shopping for groceries - I have fun. When I mow my yard and do landscaping each weekend - I have fun. When I am at the office working with 20 different people under a tight deadline - I have fun. I do EVERYTHING in a way that is FUN to ME." :newwink:

:solidarity:

-Halla74
 

Halla74

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[MENTION=18576]Sanjuro[/MENTION] - your post is AWESOME.

...Your mind doesn't have to be scattered between ideas to be 7y. The key is glutting on things you find fascinating--for 7s, they want as many of these lil experiences as possible. They are mental fascinations and plans as much as experiences in the physical world. Obviously, your cognitive preferences will dictate how you focus this.

+1,000 - Perfectly stated.

I think, again, you're suggesting differences in cognition here, rather than differences between 7 and 8. Users of functions often feel overwhelmed by using their opposite preference--for example, Ne-users feel like their overly ruminating when they use Ni, and Ni-users feel like their mind is exploding when they use Ne.

Another excellent point.

Many 7 descriptions, likewise, have an ENxP bias, which may be causing some confusion.

I have to check this out; I never picked up on that but I'm not entirely familiar with an ENFP type description either. Thanks for pointing this out!

Also, 7s are an anxiety type, meaning they use their minds to navigate uncertainties, in this case, their inner worlds.

This is great. For years I was emotionally under-developed, and I attributed most of that to being an ESTP. Now that you point out the facet as such that is 7-related, it makes huge amounts of sense. In my case I had two emotional deficiencies, ESTP, and 7 - :doh:

Naturally, this is going to lead to a more intellectual stance, and planning is going to be one of their ways of coping with inner turmoil. It can be literal planning about the "real" world, or it can be an escape into the world of imagination.

Yes, absolutely. Control is an illusion, but we feel better when we identify objectives that will be satisfying to achieve, and then plot a course to accomplish them. This does not create control, it creates a sensation of "comfort."

Either way, the imagination is engaged in planning for something better, but the nature of that engagement will vary depending on their cognitive bias.

Please write a book. Seriously! :hifive:

It's not. There are Ne-dom 2s, 3s, 4s, 6s, 7s, and 8s. There are Se-users of the same type. Correlating cognitive functions with enneatypes is a terrible idea and I frankly disregard much of what Naranjo (or any author) says on this topic.

Agreed, my mind gets bent out of shape upon reading such things. :ack!:

Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes.

I love the way you stated the above, and would like to put it in my footer, citing you of course.

:solidarity:

-Halla74
 

skylights

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The way I understand 7 in general is "more more more". It runs - quite literally - on the fear of deprivation. At its simplest origin it could be understood to be derived from the fear of hunger and thirst. e7 is the self-protection pattern which runs from "not having access to" and celebrates the self as expansiveness, variety, novelty, and spontaneity, mistaking the inability to acquire "more" as a restriction of self. The process of acquisition makes the 7 feel comforted, easing the fear of deprivation for just a moment. But it doesn't work, because the fear of deprivation is something that has to be settled from within, just like all of the enneatype fears - once the 7 realizes there are other things out there they might need access to, the drive to acquire comes rushing back. So e7 becomes the glutton, seeking to cure their inner panic through constant acquisition.

What is acquired could be anything outside the self - a new plan, a song, a theory, a feeling, food, drink, drugs. For many 7s it is experiences - skydiving, bungee jumping, world travel, and so on. It's why 7 and ExxP are so related, because it's all about being open to the external world, rushing towards it and pulling it into the self for fear that you might lose it all otherwise. 7s always are running ahead of themselves, thinking about the next thing to pull into themselves while still in the context of the last. That's part of why the acquisition always fails - because 7's fear drives them to push forward towards "more", they struggle to feel satisfaction with the current acquisition. Which is ironic, because what they are ultimately seeking is satisfaction with the current moment. But the more 7 pushes into the future, the less they have to think about their current satisfaction, so they can live in a state of always making their satisfaction contingent on the promise of the next thing, thus avoiding pain in real time.

Edit, adding - I think the idea of what I'm saying is sound but please let me know if it's tinted by 6. I've tried to grasp it "purely" but it's hard to remove oneself from one's perspective.
 
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You have a choice!
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I can relate to this "sin" through the feeling of when you visit a new country or town and you feel this strong craving to see everything within the time limit, and you feel a sense of great loss when you don't have time for that little historical museum or that lesser-known castle and to make yourself feel better you promise yourself that you are definitely coming back some time in this life to visit them all. It's a panicky energy that drives you to want everything just for the sake of having done it, so I think "gluttony" describes it pretty well.
 
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