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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Really interesting, Redbone. I often feel an upsetness and "hollowness" at the end of a very engaging experience. I first realized how powerful the feeling was when I'd get into my car after parties or when leaving home or school and just crying because I felt so empty. I don't share the frantic feelings
    Hey. I do have something like that after getting home from outside. It feels like it's all suddenly a lower energy. Not that I'd start crying or anything, just a somewhat uncomfortable switch from higher energy level to lower one...


    I don't think I try to compensate with intensity for the most part, but (and I don't know if this is so/sx related) I do feel so much better about things when I have the next thing in line or if I am with someone. Like it'll be so much easier for me to go home if I know I'm going to see the people in class the next day. I love going to parties with my boyfriend now because we go, it's big and exciting and stimulating, and we can leave and it's comforting but there's no "bottom falling out" feeling like there used to be because I'm going home with him and I have a companion to engage with and someone to curl up with at night. So the enjoyment never really ends, it just changes.
    Thanks that's a nice description again. I still don't relate to looking forward to the future in this way. Mine's so much more general/vague, it's just the sense that the future shouldn't be bad. Nothing more concrete for me and it's not even conscious often. But this is pretty important to me, this is my sense of optimism. Doesn't mean I always have it But when I rebound from shit, I do regain this way of looking at the future and that's good. That's my default.

    I relate to the last line though (bolded), I mean I like it if life is like that. Though what's meant by enjoyment is maybe different for you than for me :p


    Yes, definitely. I think it can be a strength when wielded with awareness. It's a very expansive and varied energy. Always pushing further, going beyond boundaries, constantly recombining, riding on the crest of the wave.
    Ooh I like "pushing further", "going beyond boundaries", but I don't relate to the recombining / varied etc adjectives Guess this helps again to understand 7 more, thanks.


    Ah. I was probably being confusing by using internal and external, perhaps a better distinction would be "future" and "present". Immersing in the present moment requires being in touch with one's present self, as well - exactly what one is at the moment. The 7 has to stop running away into the future world and come to terms with the present world. It's hard for the 7 to trust that because they see limitations in the present world and fear them, while the future has no limitations. The 7 who starts focusing on the present might at first feel panic because of the perceived lack of possibility, but will eventually begin to understand that the only thing that really ever has existed is the present.
    Well I don't truly understand this one... Being in the present moment in my case doesn't require being in touch with myself inside or whatever. No, it's something completely unrelated to me. That to me sounds like you're talking about some sort of self-awareness but it really isn't needed to live in the moment. Maybe you are bringing some Fi into this where it doesn't need to be. I don't really have Fi

    I get what you mean about the future having no limitations but this must be a Ne thing again because trust me I couldn't care less about the future having no limitations. Future is unreal, future is not here, I don't have the future with me. I only have the present and I always thought this way. The present may have limitations but how I solve that issue is by trying to overcome them. E.g. what Redbone said about that ESFP sister, affecting the situation. Also when I'm content/satisfied in the moment I don't worry about the limitations of the present. Oh I guess this is the most un-7-ish thing I've said so far Though that's only when I'm content and I'm not always content. So that then is the 7 in me, I guess.


    But I do think this will be different for a Se dom than Ne dom, as others have been saying. My description is probably unintentionally biased towards Ne-7. I think of my ESTP 7w8 sx/so friend and I think she sort of lives her version of this process by creating huge fun explosions of activity wherever she goes. She's always gearing everyone up for the next big thing, getting everyone more drunk, getting people to agree to do more things with her, pulling more people in on her adventures. In college if the party wound down or if I went to class she'd go find someone else to party with or she'd go do a killer workout at the gym or she'd go on a 7 mile run or she'd watch TV with her whole suite of neighbors. It was always go-go-go with her, very grounded and tangible but always about constant movement, never stopping.
    I see. Oh I so don't relate to this, this is one of the reasons why I have a hard time with the ESxP stereotype. I may be Se-dom but the above description is not me. Sure, sometimes I can get like this but I can't say I'm like this with "never stopping".


    Well, I think that would sort of depend on how you go about planning. As a Ne-dom w7, I totally "spin my wheels" in planning sometimes. The plan becomes enjoyable because it's all about this ideal version of the future where everything is possible, and while I'm lost in the plan I don't think about the present mess or how difficult things may actually be. An example - I just started post-bac classes at a new university, and I missed the spring registration deadline last semester because I didn't realize how soon it would be (my old university's registration dates were much later in the semester). I tried not to think about the reality of it and constructed a plan to get myself into the classes I wanted, speaking to people, pulling strings, filling out forms, etc. Lots of forward movement but not really addressing the core of me needing to be better about learning the university's calendar and policies. And that's a sort of 7 thing to do. Push-push-push and skate over the top of things. Ignore the festering reality while dreaming about a brighter future. Distract yourself with more fun things so you don't have to deal with how you might be boxed in (that strikes me as particularly 6/7-7/6 whereas 7/8-8/7 would probably be more about breaking the boxes). Hopefully that's a pretty decent example. Again, I might be 6-biased, but I think that's a fairly true one.
    The university example, hmm, did you actually manage to get into the classes as a result of executing your plan?

    When planning bigger stuff - actual goals - I do realise that it isn't easy stuff but that is what makes the planning more enjoyable.

    Do you ever temporarily focus on the "festering reality"? Emotional issues/pain?


    I get it. It's not really a pain for me, just a little sad knowing you won't get to see everything, at least not in this lifetime (note w7 coping mechanism of "never say never")
    That's okay as long as you enjoy and really immerse in what you're actually doing.

    ...I've always been good at that but as far as I understand this state is just what the 7 needs to reach?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    Sounds like a reasonably intelligent 8w7 in my own opinion.
    I thought it was also some line/connection to 5.


    They don't need to justify so much--possibly, because they do have that 1 connection--but for the most part, they feel they're already justified simply for being themselves.
    To be honest, the question never occurred to me, that is, whether I deserve the stuff I want etc. (EDIT: I will talk more about this entitlement topic below)

    If I tried to think about that, it would be pretty bad, I think. It would definitely kill my "ego", I'm just not ready for that.

    See I'm being honest here

    I read once that 7's are the most shameless and guiltless type... I kind of relate to that. But only 50/50, I'm capable of feeling/caring about certain responsibilities. This however doesn't exclude the "entitlement" thingie for me...


    Does more of your ego rest on your sense of "smartness" or "willpower"? I think that'll be the difference between 7 and 8. Sevens are a mental type and primarily focus on that aspect. Eights are a body type and their sense of confidence is more about will and/or physicality.
    Quite honestly... Smartness is a tool. So I would say the latter. That is, my confidence comes from willpower.

    I would still add that I can appreciate intellectual things for their own sake, then it's not just a tool. But willpower has an element even there in most cases, in terms of mental challenges.

    Uhm and Se 7's, are they mental types? Or Ne 8's, are they more body than mind? Not nitpicking, this just doesn't make total sense to me.


    I mean 8s will put up an all out struggle, and 7s often move onto something else rather than get down and dirty. They're more inclined to see discomfort and difficulty as being indicative of a problem, rather than something to be surmounted.
    So do you mean, a sense of entitlement would involve not putting up the struggle and instead just expecting the thing to be had easily because it's deserved? When I said I don't question that I "deserve" things, it's about how I don't question that I want whatever, even if it means others don't get it. I think that was defined as sadism in Naranjo's book :o I really don't want to call it this way because the concept of sadism to me involves being fully aware of and willingly causing pain for the sake of causing pain and that's something else. In the context of "deserving" of things it's at best objectification.

    I would like to understand however how the 7's entitlement is different from that.... any thoughts?


    I think it's just a mental comparison and they have to have a one-up on others. "I can still play this piece better than anyone else in the room". And their ego rests on that--that they have more talent than others. And it's inherent talent--they don't like to struggle to acquire their talents so they tend to bank on their ability to learn the basics quickly.
    I do like to feel "better" than others in a sense. This is a pretty generic word though... Talent is good, sure, but just learning the basics isn't a big thing to me.


    I think they could be competitive, but more likely they'd just move on to something they are better at if they come up feeling short in comparison to others.
    Ok well I don't relate to this kind of escapism

  2. #32
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Uhm and Se 7's, are they mental types? Or Ne 8's, are they more body than mind? Not nitpicking, this just doesn't make total sense to me.
    Sevens are inherently mental types since they're in the head center. I cannot attest as to how an Se-dom 7 perceives this... @Halla74, what would you say?

    I can tell you that as an Ne-dom of my type, I don't actually consider myself to be "body-oriented". Some of this is sp-last, too, I think. I live in my head and am aware of my thoughts more than the environment around me. As far as I'm concerned, I was the last kid picked on every gym team, and I still suck at using my body. I see myself as uncoordinated and awkward, to be honest. And I sometimes think my body is this annoying thing that weights me down and encumbers my will (I have to feed it??!)

    I still have the characteristics of having lots of stamina, getting physically angry, using physical force to solve problems, and being "literal" about things. But it was strange for me to think of myself as a "body type". My mental process is at odds with my impulses, let's say.

    So do you mean, a sense of entitlement would involve not putting up the struggle and instead just expecting the thing to be had easily because it's deserved? When I said I don't question that I "deserve" things, it's about how I don't question that I want whatever, even if it means others don't get it. I think that was defined as sadism in Naranjo's book :o I really don't want to call it this way because the concept of sadism to me involves being fully aware of and willingly causing pain for the sake of causing pain and that's something else. In the context of "deserving" of things it's at best objectification.

    I would like to understand however how the 7's entitlement is different from that.... any thoughts?
    I think what you're describing pertains to following your impulses and desires rather than any inherent sense that you're "entitled" or superior to others in any form. It sounds more like an innocent desire rather than a superiority/inferiority complex (which I think is what the 7s' sense of entitlement stems from).

    My two cents.

  3. #33
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Thinking about this a little more...

    ...it's like eating cotton candy. It's pretty much gone as soon as it melts in the mouth which makes me want to stuff more in mouth to compensate. That kind of gluttony.
    Upon reading this again I love it as an example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    It's a bad thing, I know. As a 7, I need to grow and appreciate/feel gratitude for the now/present instead of instead of engaging in this intense mental masturbation by focusing on the next thing I want to consume. I was lying in the dark thinking about this a few weeks ago and was really horrified when I realized this. I felt really bad and realized that I had ruined something good by focusing on the distress that it would be over soon and being upset that I didn't have anything else to "eat".
    I became aware of this tendency in myself MANY years ago, as in a decade ago, because my BODY was finally having ISSUES (and I mean worked like a dog of my own will and accord for years straight on all that I wanted to do all the time) KEEPING UP WITH THE DESIRES OF MY MIND and my HEART. So, me being pragmatic I recognized the delta between the two as it never been before, accepted it, and quickly learned to shuffle my deck of things to do, work smarter and not harder, and get much better at creating and maintaining EQUILIBRIUM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    My sister is Se-dom 7w6 (ESFP). She is materialistic and immerses herself in physical, material pleasures. Her way is this kind of [b]moment-to-moment, rung-to-rung movement from experience to experience[/color]. It's smoother and she seems much more open and present to whatever she's doing. I think she enjoys anticipation but seems to derive less pleasure from this than I do and doesn't seem to suffer from as much feeling let down if things don't play out like she imagined they should be.
    Very interesting!

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    I'm much more likely to be pretty upset from things not playing out like they did in my imagination.
    THIS is the part that is different from my experience. And for the sake of others reading this reply, there is a HUGE amount of respect and comraderie and kinship between Redbone and I, and so I am able to point this difference in perception out for what it is, and it's exactly that - a difference in perception, there is no no right or wrong - or which is better or worse than the other. I'm 100% sure that is understood between us, but wanted to obviate it for for the sake of readers that might construe reading a difference of opinion/observed life experiecne thus far as a conflict. But aside from my implementation being different, again, I must agree, the underlying premise is very similar - it is the implementation that differs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    She'd be quicker to find something else to do or affect the situation to make it more pleasing to her. I guess this ability to impact what's going on right now? Not sure how to describe it. I really, really envy that about her. @Halla74 does that sound about right to you as an Se-dom?
    Your typical Sensor will approach any simplistic endeavor of enjoyment from the perspective of "If A, B, or C happen I am totally good" and approach the experience with their favored outcome, and adjust accordingly to accomodate things outside their locus of control. This is an adaptive skill, but there is a certain amount of overhead that goes along with real-time agenda setting as such, that in time, you realize that if it really is just chill time, the best option is to preserve ALL of your energey, and just roll with your surroundings, and enjoy it for what it is...

    Yes, you summarized my feelings similar to the above when I was younger. The "looking forward to" part of anticipation was fine with me when I focused on it; I never felt the "let down side" of anticipation for long if at all, because AWSM options, B, C, and D were already in the pot and stirring. I'm so bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Hmm I relate to the wish that things shouldn't end. Though it's not always visibly in the back of my head and I don't react too strongly when the experience is ending, though sure it's not great.
    All things must come to an end. Don't let it get to you. Cherish it for what it was and look forward to new and AWSM experiences.
    Honestly, it sounds like you and I are more on the same page than not on this particular aspect of this conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    i definitely fill my 7-void with information as well as experiences. i want to learn everything about everything, and get a rush out of learning and discovering new things and people. same with music. it's that same force with an endless appetite for more. sx definitely intensifies it.
    THIS! The bolded above! Preach it, Sister!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    i do like "things" like little odd trinkety things or beautiful things or meaningful things. i have kind of a cluttery life as a result. i read that 7w6 is drawn to things like that. that also sounds like it might be sp peeking out, but that's just a guess
    That's not just 7w6, your 7w8 brethren experience this too. I was very much so inclined when younger. Now, I realize that the daily/on-going maintenance of these things is taking away from my ability to maximally enjoy the present, and for a few years now I have thus de-materialized. It feels REALLY GOOD - the local Goodwill and CHKD Stores by my house freaking love me! Does this mean that I am cured of the impulsive propensity to go out and buy something I think if just dandy as hell when the whim occurs? NO. However, my rule of thumb now to keeo peace in my life and marriage, and to remain among the living of this planet - is to ensure that any such urges of mine are few and far between, and that they never cost more than a typical trip to the grocery store.

    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    in this way, i'm not relating to that anticipation as much as some other people on here. i get immersed in information, people, and music, and feel very engaged. i DO feel that way, though, with life plans.
    Oh Yeah! I am CURIOUS and WANT TO LEARN about EVERYTHING.
    You stated that perfectly - I dig it.

    Quote Originally Posted by five sounds View Post
    i have a tendency to dream myself up a grand adventure or an awesome experience, and then not really be present while i'm there, and be looking around for more. i also really love having things to look forward to. i'm constantly placing little carrots in front of myself to keep myself moving forward. and it totally works!
    I am ALWAYS thinking - and I love it.
    My "carrots" are pre-determined too, but only identified from time to to time.
    The same methodology applies, just different timing methinks.
    What thinketh thou?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    They don't need to justify so much--possibly, because they do have that 1 connection--but for the most part, they feel they're already justified simply for being themselves.
    Very simply and truthfully put, YES.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    Does more of your ego rest on your sense of "smartness" or "willpower"? I think that'll be the difference between 7 and 8. Sevens are a mental type and primarily focus on that aspect. Eights are a body type and their sense of confidence is more about will and/or physicality.
    I am so glad that you laid this out as bluntly as you did - seriously.
    Yes, There is a huge amount of natural comfort/and - or ego in 7s as a result of being so versatile - and thus "smart centric".
    However, in my particular case of 7w8 weirdness I too have a HUGE core confidence in my WILL and my PHYSICALITY.

    My Father taught me this when I was very young:

    "Alex, there will be times in life when things need to be done that are not within the boundaries of comfort of most people - but these things must be accomplished. Who will accomplish them? Who will further the greater good? I tell you this:

    There are 3 types of people in this world:
    (1) Those who CAN DO what needs to be done - BUT DON'T HAVE THE WILL to do so.
    (2) Those who HAVE THE WILL TO DO what needs to be done, but CANNOT DO IT.
    (3) Those who CAN DO WHAT NEEDS to be DONE, - AND - HAVE the WILL TO DO SO at the time it needs to be done.

    Which of these three types of people do you wish to become, Alexander? 1, 2, or 3?"


    It was at that point in my life that I committed to being as smart, strong, and confident as possible - for if I developed these aspects of my nature, and of my body - then it would by default maximize my ability to succeed at whatever opportunities came my way, or that I created for myself.

    I think there is alot of value in both the 7 and 8 mindsets, For me, I am very thankful to have a blended implementation of them that recognizes the strengths and weaknesses of each.

    To the degree that thinking through things (quickly) is a 7 trait, I identify with that strongly. I've found that when I've had an idea to solve a problem that is common to more than just me and my group of people, if I pitch it before anyone else pitches their problem, and if my solution not only solves the problem, but addresses the needs of each of the participant groups whose efforts are required to solve it, there is very little resistance - and a natural ascension to a leadership position usually occurs. Of course, with any leadership role one assumes equal amounts of RESPONSIBILITY and AUTHORITY. As a 7, I default on fostering collaboration and consensus - and only resort to use of any type of rigid/authoritarian decision-making when I feel that the whim of others in the air is by all accounts not at all the best use of time and resources, and creates more potential risk than forward progress. And even then, I don't see the point in putting my foot down just to put my foot down. Why alienate a member of your team? Even if you meet with them in private to discuss differences of opinion, and then agree to disagree at the end of the conversation, holding the trump card in your back pocket - you will rarely have created an enemy, or needless resentment - for you gave your counterpart an opportunity to be heard, and for them to hear your position before any final ruling was made. Again, these are examples from my own life experience. I am a person of unification amongst people, not division. Would I drop the hammer on someone who was not playing fair, or being reasonable, or who was putting the efforts of the endeavor as a whole at risk? Yes. Absolutely, without hesitation if I felt it was needed. BUT - in the same token, I would not take away their dignity. There is no need for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I mean 8s will put up an all out struggle, and 7s often move onto something else rather than get down and dirty. They're more inclined to see discomfort and difficulty as being indicative of a problem, rather than something to be surmounted.
    In general yes, but depending on waht is at stake - we're all in - and then some. That's a hugely personal matter though, and for sure an exceptional defined by each person at the most individual level, but I felt compelled to point it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I think it's just a mental comparison and they have to have a one-up on others. "I can still play this piece better than anyone else in the room". And their ego rests on that--that they have more talent than others. And it's inherent talent--they don't like to struggle to acquire their talents so they tend to bank on their ability to learn the basics quickly.
    Yes, once we recognize our natural strengths we will capitalize on opportunities to use them in liew of pursuing similar endeavors that require us to master things not of our parlance.
    A question though? Is this truly an E7 only phenomena? Or is this more human nature - that is simply more frequently exhibited by 7s than others? Really just curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    Sevens are inherently mental types since they're in the head center. I cannot attest as to how an Se-dom 7 perceives this... @Halla74, what would you say?
    We are still in the head center, my friend. It is simply what we focus on, and how we get to the end result/decision of our next set of actions that varies between Se and Ne. I can't state your words better - so I will state them again.

    An example from my life. My very good friend, Josh, is an ENTP 8w7. We are both IT professionals, we are both system analysts, we have both managed projects. In a previous job of mine, he was staffed to a department whose core interests were not in alignment with the interests of the agency as a whole. I was in the Chief of Staff's Office, and designed a new information system from the AGENCY perspective. We became aware of this conflict shortly after his onboarding. Neither of us could "officially pull rank on the other" - which we were fine with, because we didn't need to. We sat down on our own time and mapped the whole program out, the system that had to support it, and the political differences between the "tribes" who had to make it all work. Guess what? We figured out a way to let the dialog between the departments ensue, and allow all who needed to be heard to state their case, and document our findings, and then go back into our techie dungeon, and craft a solution that met EVERYONE'S NEEDS - as well as the NEEDS of the PROGRAM as a WHOLE.

    How much changed from my initial design? Hardly anything. We moved a few things around, but the content and function were the same - just a slightly different layout. The more important thing was that we let all who had to live with it state their needs, state their differences, and ask them if they all got a system that accomplished "A, B, C, D, and E" if they would all pitch in and make it work, and be able to be happy in living with it and using it. THAT is what made all the difference in the world.

    My point? As an ESTP 7w8 Sx/So, I could have come up with a solution that worked for all, and talked them all into it being what they needed it to be, and cashed my check and went home. However, my ENTP 8w7 sx/so friend showed me the art of letting them all be heard, entertaining their ideas as new possibilities, re-arranging the existing product in ways that did make the end-users much more happy, but that DID NOT compromise my core data model, system logic, workflow, or to any large degree scurity schema and graphical user interface. BUT - what he did give them was the ability to be HEARD and for their IDEAS to be CONSIDERED and VALIDATED before allowing the design of the system to be blessed by all, with a pledge by all to not impeded its effectiveness post implementation.

    Neither Se of NE is SUPERIOR; they both have ALOT to OFFER. It is my opinion, that together they have far much to offer than either alone. As individuals however, we cannot choose to be masters of both cognitive funtions - but we can recognize our strengths and our weaknesses, and allow both to be balanced with the capabilities of those who can benefit from our competencies, and benefit us with theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I can tell you that as an Ne-dom of my type, I don't actually consider myself to be "body-oriented". Some of this is sp-last, too, I think. I live in my head and am aware of my thoughts more than the environment around me. As far as I'm concerned, I was the last kid picked on every gym team, and I still suck at using my body. I see myself as uncoordinated and awkward, to be honest. And I sometimes think my body is this annoying thing that weights me down and encumbers my will (I have to feed it??!)
    That's very interesting. My INFJ 1w9 sp/sx wife tells me the same!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I still have the characteristics of having lots of stamina, getting physically angry, using physical force to solve problems, and being "literal" about things. But it was strange for me to think of myself as a "body type". My mental process is at odds with my impulses, let's say.
    That makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I think what you're describing pertains to following your impulses and desires rather than any inherent sense that you're "entitled" or superior to others in any form. It sounds more like an innocent desire rather than a superiority/inferiority complex (which I think is what the 7s' sense of entitlement stems from).
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    My two cents.
    ...are worth a pound of gold.



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    Last edited by Halla74; 01-26-2014 at 06:50 AM.
    --------------------
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I can tell you that as an Ne-dom of my type, I don't actually consider myself to be "body-oriented". Some of this is sp-last, too, I think. I live in my head and am aware of my thoughts more than the environment around me. As far as I'm concerned, I was the last kid picked on every gym team, and I still suck at using my body. I see myself as uncoordinated and awkward, to be honest. And I sometimes think my body is this annoying thing that weights me down and encumbers my will (I have to feed it??!)
    Sp-last, N-dom (=weak S), whatnot... Though I do relate to the wish of not having to feed my body, it could just go on infinitely without feeding it, wow would be good haha

    I was also last kid picked, in middle school, but for a different reason.


    I still have the characteristics of having lots of stamina, getting physically angry, using physical force to solve problems, and being "literal" about things. But it was strange for me to think of myself as a "body type". My mental process is at odds with my impulses, let's say.
    You've got a very special brain (I like to think of myself as having a special brain too)


    I think what you're describing pertains to following your impulses and desires rather than any inherent sense that you're "entitled" or superior to others in any form. It sounds more like an innocent desire rather than a superiority/inferiority complex (which I think is what the 7s' sense of entitlement stems from).
    OK, I see

    Innocent hmm heh why would use that word? :P


    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Your typical Sensor will approach any simplistic endeavor of enjoyment from the perspective of "If A, B, or C happen I am totally good" and approach the experience with their favored outcome, and adjust accordingly to accomodate things outside their locus ofcontrol. This is an adaptive skill, but there is a certain amount of overhead that goes along with real-time agenda setting as such, that in time, you realize that if it really is just chill time, the best option is to preserve ALL of your energey, and just roll with your surroundings, and enjoy it for what it is...

    Yes, you summarized my feelings similar to the above when I was younger. The "looking forward to" part of anticipation was fine with me when I focused on it; I never felt the "let down side" of anticipation for long if at all, because AWSM options, B, C, and D were already in the pot and stirring. I'm so bad.
    Hey thanks for that description, I think it allows really good insights into what Se combined with 7 is like. I'm not at all like this, I'll just get pissed off if the whatever outcome isn't what I wanted and I'll keep focusing on it. Thanks again, it really makes sense the way you put it.

    Btw it doesn't mean that I can't be adaptive, I can, but I still don't keep options B, C, D in my head to do so. If I have to suck it up*, then I just do, accept whatever "as is". And then go on with my life. So in that sense I'm adaptive.

    *: depends... sometimes the thing isn't so important so it's like that right away and then sometimes it's important and that's when I get pissed off etc


    All things must come to an end. Don't let it get to you. Cherish it for what it was and look forward to new and AWSM experiences.
    Honestly, it sounds like you and I are more on the same page than not on this particular aspect of this conversation.
    Did you feel before that we were never on the same page? You mentioned something about disagreement vs conflict, I hope you didn't take anything for much more than just disagreement, I'm not against you or anything, obviously.

    Anyway, as I said, it doesn't really get to me too bad, this about things ending, it's just a thought that sometimes comes up. It goes away though. It's just that I prefer certain things not to end, because then I can have more of the specific thing that way. Time as a factor is important to me in general.


    "i want to learn everything about everything, and get a rush out of learning and discovering new things and people. same with music. it's that same force with an endless appetite for more. sx definitely intensifies it." THIS! The bolded above! Preach it, Sister!!!
    Lol, you 7's are so funny. ;p

    I do think this again allows more insight into the mindset of the 7's gluttony Seems like it's not Ne-specific!


    That's not just 7w6, your 7w8 brethren experience this too. I was very much so inclined when younger. Now, I realize that the daily/on-going maintenance of these things is taking away from my ability to maximally enjoy the present, and for a few years now I have thus de-materialized. It feels REALLY GOOD - the local Goodwill and CHKD Stores by my house freaking love me! Does this mean that I am cured of the impulsive propensity to go out and buy something I think if just dandy as hell when the whim occurs? NO. However, my rule of thumb now to keeo peace in my life and marriage, and to remain among the living of this planet - is to ensure that any such urges of mine are few and far between, and that they never cost more than a typical trip to the grocery store. :rulez:
    Ah I forgot to comment on this one before, I think. I also like to get some shiny objects sometimes. I can be really big on collecting certain objects from time to time, it's not a constantly "on" thing, it's periods in my life. Maintenance, I guess I just try to minimize time spent on that... it's alright... "De-materializing" is something I will need to learn. Definitely need to.


    "i get immersed in information, people, and music, and feel very engaged." Oh Yeah! I am CURIOUS and WANT TO LEARN about EVERYTHING.
    You stated that perfectly - I dig it.
    Hey. I like immersion and engagement too. Sx thing?


    I am ALWAYS thinking - and I love it.
    Always thinking about what? As an Se-dom? Not sure I understand you there.


    "They don't need to justify so much--possibly, because they do have that 1 connection--but for the most part, they feel they're already justified simply for being themselves."
    Very simply and truthfully put, YES.
    So do you have this sense of entitlement?


    Yes, There is a huge amount of natural comfort/and - or ego in 7s as a result of being so versatile - and thus "smart centric".
    However, in my particular case of 7w8 weirdness I too have a HUGE core confidence in my WILL and my PHYSICALITY.
    You ever felt split between 7 and 8 because of that? Or it's always been pretty obvious to you you are more the "versatile smart-centric" type?

    Note: I can see already though that you're really a very positive type, positive outlook whatnot. I thought I was kind of optimistic, but I think you are even more positive, a lot more, hmm interesting to see. ;p


    My Father taught me this when I was very young:
    (...)
    It was at that point in my life that I committed to being as smart, strong, and confident as possible - for if I developed these aspects of my nature, and of my body - then it would by default maximize my ability to succeed at whatever opportunities came my way, or that I created for myself.
    Mmm I know what I'm going to tell my kids when I'll have kids.


    To the degree that thinking through things (quickly) is a 7 trait, I identify with that strongly. I've found that when I've had an idea to solve a problem that is common to more than just me and my group of people, if I pitch it before anyone else pitches their problem, and if my solution not only solves the problem, but addresses the needs of each of the participant groups whose efforts are required to solve it, there is very little resistance - and a natural ascension to a leadership position usually occurs. Of course, with any leadership role one assumes equal amounts of RESPONSIBILITY and AUTHORITY. As a 7, I default on fostering collaboration and consensus - and only resort to use of any type of rigid/authoritarian decision-making when I feel that the whim of others in the air is by all accounts not at all the best use of time and resources, and creates more potential risk than forward progress. And even then, I don't see the point in putting my foot down just to put my foot down. Why alienate a member of your team? Even if you meet with them in private to discuss differences of opinion, and then agree to disagree at the end of the conversation, holding the trump card in your back pocket - you will rarely have created an enemoy, or needless resentment - for you gave your counterpart an opportunity to be heard, and for them to hear your position before any final ruling was made. Again, these are examples from my own life experience. I am a person of unification amongst people, not division. Would I drop the hammer on someone who was not playing fair, or being reasonable, or who was putting the efforts of the endeavor as a whole at risk? Yes. Absolutely, without hesitation if I felt it was needed. BUT - in the same token, I would not take away their dignity. There is no need for that.
    Pretty cool. I think only unhealthier 8's would bother with "putting my foot down just to put my foot down", etc., right? because I do relate to your attitude here.


    In general yes, but depending on waht is at stake - we're all in - and then some. That's a hugely personal matter though, and for sure an exceptional defined by each person at the most individual level, but I felt compelled to point it out.
    Good point!


    "I think it's just a mental comparison and they have to have a one-up on others. "I can still play this piece better than anyone else in the room". And their ego rests on that--that they have more talent than others. And it's inherent talent--they don't like to struggle to acquire their talents so they tend to bank on their ability to learn the basics quickly."
    Yes, once we recognize our natural strengths we will capitalize on opportunities to use them in liew of pursuing similar endeavors that require us to master things not of our parlance.
    A question though? Is this truly an E7 only phenomena? Or is this more human nature - that is simply more frequently exhibited by 7s than others? Really just curious.
    I guess the E7 specific part is what I bolded. I don't think of it in this exact same way as the bolded. I just relate to the more general approach that you described, capitalizing on strengths to take opportunities and master things.


    We are still in the head center, my friend. It is simply what we focus on, and how we get to the end result/decision of our next set of actions that varies between Se and Ne. I can't state your words better - so I will state them again.
    So you place yourself in head center/triad why? Quick thinking?


    Neither Se of NE is SUPERIOR; they both have ALOT to OFFER. It is my opinion, that together they have far much to offer than either alone. As individuals however, we cannot choose to be masters of both cognitive funtions - but we can recognize our strengths and our weaknesses, and allow both to be balanced with the capabilities of those who can benefit from our competencies, and benefit us with theirs.
    I was thinking of this myself before.


    Something else; I guess you didn't have time to respond to my post? Or you missed it? I mean this one.

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    *bump*

    @Halla74


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    @Sanjuro
    It's not. There are Ne-dom 2s, 3s, 4s, 6s, 7s, and 8s. There are Se-users of the same type. Correlating cognitive functions with enneatypes is a terrible idea and I frankly disregard much of what Naranjo (or any author) says on this topic.
    just because there isn't a perfect correlation does not mean that drawing any correlations is a bad idea. for example, I think it's safe to say we're not going to find many Ti dom 2s, Fe dom 8s, Se dom 5s or Si dom 7s
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @Sanjuro

    just because there isn't a perfect correlation does not mean that drawing any correlations is a bad idea. for example, I think it's safe to say we're not going to find many Ti dom 2s, Fe dom 8s, Se dom 5s or Si dom 7s
    I'm not saying there are no correlations between MBTI types and enneatypes. I'm saying Jung's Extroverted Feeling type isn't necessarily the same thing as, say, being a 2 (which some authors have tried to argue). Fe-dom 1s, 3s, 6s, and maybe 7s have also been noted. What I mean to say is, when Jung wrote about the types, he was touching on cognitive processes, not enneagram types.

    A lot of enneagram authors have tried to appropriate Jung's ideas and claim that Ne is really a by-word for a certain enneatype, etc. I think, however, that the dominant function may correlate with many enneagram types, and the 4-letter code itself is seldom exclusive to one enneatype, either.

    F'rinstance, like I said above, there are Ne-dom 2s, 3s, 4s, 6s, 7s, and 8s. Ne+Ti is most often correlated with types 3, 6, 7, and 8; Ne+Fi is commonly found among 2s, 4s, 6s, and 7s. Clearly, there are correlations between MBTI process and enneatype; however, one type is not exclusively correlated to a dominant process. So when authors say things like, "Ne was Jung's attempt at grasping Type 8", I am strongly disinclined to accept this interpretation as well as the authors' knowledge of Jung's types.

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