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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    @valaki To correct that comparison so it contains both negative words but still maintain the essence of what @VagrantFarce was going for (which I agree with), I'd say this:

    3's are deceptive/polished, 8's are blunt/vulgar.
    That's a good way to put it, thanks


    To the O.P. I've made a study of 8 and the types that commonly mistype as such (3, cp 6, 7w8).
    Mind talking about the 8 vs 7w8 as well?


    - Image: 3's are very aware of this and can change it to suit their needs, environment, success rate. They desire their image to match that of their culture's desires. 3's I have known are very conscious about their physical presentation and it's fitting with cultural ideals (slightly less for a wing 4 than wing 2). 8 on the other hand is much more individual, and presents the self however they see fit, regardless of the opinions of others. They like what they like, and public opinion matters not. 3's need praise from others, 8's could care less (and in my experience, don't even notice).
    In my case what I notice is excessive praise and no I don't need it, I sometimes even explicitly tell the person that there is no need to keep flattering me

    If it's just one single comment that's praising me, it can be nice, but I still end up feeling that I really didn't need to hear it because I don't care about other people's expectations. Being self-conscious in this sense does me no good, not my natural state.


    - Heart vs. Gut: 3 is a heart type and thus desires the love of others-- they feel that in order to be loved, they must be successful/be a winner. Conversely, 8 is a gut or instinctive type, they act on impulse and live in almost "survival" mode.
    How conscious is this for a 3, this thought/desire that they need to be loved for their successes?


    @valaki In regards to your question about their attitudes toward success and failure, I believe 3 and 8 attitudes are similar but their motivations are very different. 3 dislikes/fears failure and strives for success to attain love from others (they believe they must be successful to be loved), this is (as aforementioned) why they are in the heart type group. 8 on the other hand desires success and fears failure because they literally believe the entire universe is on their shoulders. It's a control/power thing that stems from mistrust of others (or the competence/ability of others to do what needs done). 8's desire success so they can attain the power to remain always independent and self sustaining.
    Thanks, that's again a nice explanation, I still have the same question as above about 3's being conscious about this.

  2. #22
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    @valaki To correct that comparison so it contains both negative words but still maintain the essence of what @VagrantFarce was going for (which I agree with), I'd say this:

    3's are deceptive/polished, 8's are blunt/vulgar.
    Yeah, that's what I meant. I didn't mean honest in any sort of boy scout way, but the brutally honest "straight to your face" way.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Btw I'm sure you didn't mean 8's wear every emotion of theirs on their sleeves. Anger, sure...
    8s can easily say how they feel loudly and proudly, and will gladly speak from their heart if they can't control themselves - just in a very confrontational, aggressive, instinctual, volatile way. It's like watching a volcano erupt.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    8s can easily say how they feel loudly and proudly, and will gladly speak from their heart if they can't control themselves - just in a very confrontational, aggressive, instinctual, volatile way. It's like watching a volcano erupt.
    Yeah, okay. You've just described me.

    So 3's never do this? How the hell do they control themselves so well? :p

    ps: too bad you edited your post, I think the one quoted is better detailed

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    So 3's never do this? How the hell do they control themselves so well? :p
    I barely know what "speaking from the heart" is--at least, not unfiltered. When there's actual emotion, it's typically shoved through some filter. Dunno. The filter is just there. It's not necessarily people-pleasing, but it is probably some sort of repression or some such; the notion that emotion just gets in the way.

    Related, I also barely know what "can't control [myself]" is. Or "instinctual, volatile way."

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbage View Post
    I barely know what "speaking from the heart" is--at least, not unfiltered. When there's actual emotion, it's typically shoved through some filter. Dunno. The filter is just there. It's not necessarily people-pleasing, but it is probably some sort of repression or some such; the notion that emotion just gets in the way.

    Related, I also barely know what "can't control [myself]" is. Or "instinctual, volatile way."
    Lol we are so different, funny! :p

    So are you trying to say you're out of touch with your instincts and impulses?

    What are your filters like?

    What do you do when you actually do get angry, I'm sure it sometimes happens? Do you filter that through something too? How?

  7. #27
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Mind talking about the 8 vs 7w8 as well?
    Sure, though this is a much closer distinction because a 7w8 will have traits of 8. It's the same as discerning between any two cousin types (2w3 vs. 3w2, 9w1 vs. 1w9, etc). The main difference between 7w8 and 8w7 in my experience is literally order of preference. This may seem obvious (as 7w8 naturally leads with 7 and follows with 8; 8w7 visa versa) but I believe this is pretty clear in the way the person conducts themself. For example, my Dad is 8w7 and leads with 8: he initially tends to be concise but direct, controlling, extremely confident, independent and willful. Once you actually start talking to him though, he follows with 7: cracking jokes, making fun of things, talking about all of his adventures, etc. A 7w8 on the other hand leads with 7 energy, social warmth, lack of focus/bouncy-ness, etc. The 8 dominance, matter-of-fact attitude, and reactive nature is a secondary trait. A great example is a 7w8 that I know who volunteers in the kids ministry at my church, his wife has described him like this: “he’s so fun and good with children, but he’s also capable of growling when he needs to”. 7w8 and 8w7 are both extremely formidable characters, the difference is that you can sense that right away in 8w7, and in 7w8 usually only if the individual is pushed or the going gets tough.

    That said, I think the 7w8/8w7 cousin pair is one of the easier ones to differentiate between because 8w7's are pretty blatantly obvious characters (and few and far between)-- I was raised by one though, so perhaps that's why it's easy for me. If you truly want to investigate 7w8 thoroughly as a possible type for yourself, @Halla74 is the epitome of such and an excellent source on the type.

    If I might ask, would you say you are generally a reactive person?

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    In my case what I notice is excessive praise and no I don't need it, I sometimes even explicitly tell the person that there is no need to keep flattering me.

    If it's just one single comment that's praising me, it can be nice, but I still end up feeling that I really didn't need to hear it because I don't care about other people's expectations. Being self-conscious in this sense does me no good, not my natural state.
    How conscious is this for a 3, this thought/desire that they need to be loved for their successes?

    Thanks, that's again a nice explanation, I still have the same question as above about 3's being conscious about this.
    I think your note that self-consciousness “does you no good”, is interesting and is reminiscent of an 8ish matter-of-fact-ness.

    Your question about 3 awareness is a very good one because 3’s are one of the two most self deceptive types in the Enneagram. In other words, they are very unaware of their motives and true desires. 3’s are described to have sacrificed their “heart’s desire” early in life for a life of achievement and chasing after cultural ideals. I’ve read that they after awhile even fail to remember their true “heart’s desire” at all. I believe in health they can recover and return to it, but it takes a good deal of self work.

    The motivation of 3’s pursuit of success could as easily be described using other words like “esteem”, “praise” or “acclaim” in the place of “love”. They think success, money, material gain, knowing so-and-so, and having won such-and-such awards will earn them approval and worth. One interesting tid-bit about 3 is that they (unlike all other Enneagram types) look drastically different based on culture. This is because 3’s main desire is to be what their culture finds desirable-- which is why 3’s of the western world are after fame, money, prestige, etc.
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    Sure, though this is a much closer distinction because a 7w8 will have traits of 8. It's the same as discerning between any two cousin types (2w3 vs. 3w2, 9w1 vs. 1w9, etc). The main difference between 7w8 and 8w7 in my experience is literally order of preference. This may seem obvious (as 7w8 naturally leads with 7 and follows with 8; 8w7 visa versa) but I believe this is pretty clear in the way the person conducts themself. For example, my Dad is 8w7 and leads with 8: he initially tends to be concise but direct, controlling, extremely confident, independent and willful. Once you actually start talking to him though, he follows with 7: cracking jokes, making fun of things, talking about all of his adventures, etc. A 7w8 on the other hand leads with 7 energy, social warmth, lack of focus/bouncy-ness, etc. The 8 dominance, matter-of-fact attitude, and reactive nature is a secondary trait. A great example is a 7w8 that I know who volunteers in the kids ministry at my church, his wife has described him like this: “he’s so fun and good with children, but he’s also capable of growling when he needs to”. 7w8 and 8w7 are both extremely formidable characters, the difference is that you can sense that right away in 8w7, and in 7w8 usually only if the individual is pushed or the going gets tough.
    Ah, interesting. Well I can't decide in my case based on the bolded because I don't know how others see me. As for typing others, I actually don't see many people as "formidable" so that's not that simple either.

    As far as I can see myself, I can say that if I'm in the mood and nothing gets in the way, I'll be feeling pretty sociable, well in my own sort of rough way which isn't liked by everyone but I do really feel sociable and I do seem to have some social warmth and I can interact with people in several directions (though I don't like to overdo that, I like to have some focus in general). Though I'm not too witty, in terms of not cracking that many jokes. Rude ones, maybe :p Anyway, I'm sure I look really fun and all that and I probably look really er, non-dangerous but then there's a trigger and I'll suddenly be very confrontational, argumentative, whatnot.

    Now all that's true with regard to being in the right mood. If not, then I'm just not really even sociable at all. I will look really reserved and pretty much "on my own". Some people who only see that side of me for a while do first get the wrong idea of me as well, thinking I'm always reserved and in the background. Actually, in that state, to me people are just a "background" part of the scene, not much more lol. Not very feminine, I know.


    That said, I think the 7w8/8w7 cousin pair is one of the easier ones to differentiate between because 8w7's are pretty blatantly obvious characters (and few and far between)-- I was raised by one though, so perhaps that's why it's easy for me. If you truly want to investigate 7w8 thoroughly as a possible type for yourself, @Halla74 is the epitome of such and an excellent source on the type.
    Ah, thanks for the tip about Halla74.


    If I might ask, would you say you are generally a reactive person?
    Yes, see the above.


    I think your note that self-consciousness “does you no good”, is interesting and is reminiscent of an 8ish matter-of-fact-ness.
    Yeah I prefer to stick with realism


    Your question about 3 awareness is a very good one because 3’s are one of the two most self deceptive types in the Enneagram. In other words, they are very unaware of their motives and true desires. 3’s are described to have sacrificed their “heart’s desire” early in life for a life of achievement and chasing after cultural ideals. I’ve read that they after awhile even fail to remember their true “heart’s desire” at all. I believe in health they can recover and return to it, but it takes a good deal of self work.

    The motivation of 3’s pursuit of success could as easily be described using other words like “esteem”, “praise” or “acclaim” in the place of “love”. They think success, money, material gain, knowing so-and-so, and having won such-and-such awards will earn them approval and worth. One interesting tid-bit about 3 is that they (unlike all other Enneagram types) look drastically different based on culture. This is because 3’s main desire is to be what their culture finds desirable-- which is why 3’s of the western world are after fame, money, prestige, etc.
    Which is the other self deceptive type?

    Good summary otherwise, thanks

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Ah, interesting. Well I can't decide in my case based on the bolded because I don't know how others see me. As for typing others, I actually don't see many people as "formidable" so that's not that simple either.

    As far as I can see myself, I can say that if I'm in the mood and nothing gets in the way, I'll be feeling pretty sociable, well in my own sort of rough way which isn't liked by everyone but I do really feel sociable and I do seem to have some social warmth and I can interact with people in several directions (though I don't like to overdo that, I like to have some focus in general). Though I'm not too witty, in terms of not cracking that many jokes. Rude ones, maybe :p Anyway, I'm sure I look really fun and all that and I probably look really er, non-dangerous but then there's a trigger and I'll suddenly be very confrontational, argumentative, whatnot.

    Now all that's true with regard to being in the right mood. If not, then I'm just not really even sociable at all. I will look really reserved and pretty much "on my own". Some people who only see that side of me for a while do first get the wrong idea of me as well, thinking I'm always reserved and in the background. Actually, in that state, to me people are just a "background" part of the scene, not much more lol. Not very feminine, I know.
    The bolded speaks core type 8 pretty stongly to me. 7 is indicative of extroversion, though you can be an introverted 7 it's not common. 8 on the other hand is considered pretty half and half, both extroverted individuals and introverted. Haha, the thing about rude jokes too-- that is so 8. And no worries about seeing the larger sea of people as background noise, I actually see it that way myself sometimes.

    The one thing that still seems weird to me about your being an 8 though, is your communication style. You just feel so...soft. I know you will want an explanation as to what I mean by "feel", but it's just how your writing (word choice, style, tone) impresses upon me. It feels very laid back, or relaxed and that's not very 8-ish really. For example, @Wind Up Rex is an 8 and her writing generally feels sharp and direct, even if it's funny or happy. @Halla74 as aforementioned just has an 8 wing, but even his communication style is kind of like, "woah!" because it's so direct and up-front-- it's largely colored by 7 in that it's enthusiastic and optimistic, but the 8 aspect is largely apparent. @Azure Flame is a good example too of 8 writing style, his is quite literally like a loose cannon sometimes (but that is characteristic of 8).

    Just some food for thought. Your writing feels very different to me than the above individuals, and 8's I know IRL. Have you considered 8w9?


    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Ah, thanks for the tip about Halla74.
    Sure! He's awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Which is the other self deceptive type?
    2
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    The bolded speaks core type 8 pretty stongly to me. 7 is indicative of extroversion, though you can be an introverted 7 it's not common. 8 on the other hand is considered pretty half and half, both extroverted individuals and introverted. Haha, the thing about rude jokes too-- that is so 8. And no worries about seeing the larger sea of people as background noise, I actually see it that way myself sometimes.
    Oh yeah I'm so half-half.


    The one thing that still seems weird to me about your being an 8 though, is your communication style. You just feel so...soft. I know you will want an explanation as to what I mean by "feel", but it's just how your writing (word choice, style, tone) impresses upon me. It feels very laid back, or relaxed and that's not very 8-ish really. For example, @Wind Up Rex is an 8 and her writing generally feels sharp and direct, even if it's funny or happy. @Halla74 as aforementioned just has an 8 wing, but even his communication style is kind of like, "woah!" because it's so direct and up-front-- it's largely colored by 7 in that it's enthusiastic and optimistic, but the 8 aspect is largely apparent. @Azure Flame is a good example too of 8 writing style, his is quite literally like a loose cannon sometimes (but that is characteristic of 8).

    Just some food for thought. Your writing feels very different to me than the above individuals, and 8's I know IRL. Have you considered 8w9?
    You really think you know my entire communication style from a few posts in one single thread?

    As for 8w9, I don't relate to the descriptions I read, I'm not THAT introverted. If you got a good one, sure, I'll read it and see.

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