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  1. #21
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    In descriptions comparing the 4's wings, the 4w3 is portrayed as more publically emotional and more self-contradicting in handling its authenticity.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

    RLOAX (don't do it)
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    A lonely island where only what is permitted to move moves, becomes an ideal. Jung

    Kiss Kiss [johari] Bang Bang [nohari]

  2. #22
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    Ah yes, you are indeed a human being.
    Yes I am indeed. Is there a point you wish to make? I will listen.

  3. #23
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    @Sanjuro no point, I just think you're very relatable
    {The Diplomat}
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misty View Post
    In descriptions comparing the 4's wings, the 4w3 is portrayed as more publicly emotional and more self-contradicting in handling its authenticity.
    Would you agree?

  5. #25
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    @Stansmith I can't say why others type as 4w5. I do so because I recognize MANY 5ish traits in myself--including knowledge-gathering, a sense that stuff is going to "run out", not responding in the moment, a horrid fascination with the taboo, many of the core fears of the type, as well as being totally oblivious to how I come across to others at times--and feel equally incriminated by both 4 and 5 descriptions. Even after considering the issues deeply, recognizing the ways in which each wing plays a role for me, and reading many well-respected authors, I see no reason to move off my 5-wing. I can't even blame introversion on this, since I'm Ne-dom.

    6w5, perhaps? I must admit that I would probably find it very difficult to type an Ennegram 6 myself. I only understand the description to the extent that I can observe those tendencies in myself with my 6 wing, but I have no idea how they would manifest in other people.

    @Standuble I don't get why there's so much shame associated with the 3-wing (my English teacher who taught me the enneagram was a 4w3 who said the same thing). I think so much of three gets pegged as superficial posers who only think of "appearances", but the type, as I've come to understand it, is really more about having grit determination to achieve something (which unfortunately, can dissolve into only measuring goals [i.e., external standards]). The more I learn about type 3, the more I'm glad to have it as an influence. If you're a 3-winger, I think that's awesome--I'd rather NOT be a 5-winger myself and don't like reporting on that aspect of myself.
    I doubt 3s are the only ennegram type to be superficial. 5's do this too, if they are overly self-conscious abut the stigma of being a 5.



    @msg_v2 I'm not sure why there are more 4s than the other image types...it's been this way on every enneagram forum I've visited. I assume it's got something to do with the introspective nature of the 4, combined with a 4ish desire to reach out to those who understand without having to expose themselves.
    I do think there is something about a 4 that likes disguises and smoke-screens. This is why I associate them with hipsters. A lot of unhealthy 4s do seem to want to appear "impossible to classify" and the chief vehicle for doing this is by being deliberately confusing. An example of this would be someone who refuses to be called an "anarchist" but is instead a "horizontalist", and cannot articulate how that is different. I think someone like that is probably 4 (and also, a hipster!) Not because of the political philosophy itself, but because of aiming for obscurity over clarity or external results. The goal is not to understand the world, or really to affect change, but to seem distinct from others. (Though some of that probably has roots in postmodernism. )

    It's harmless enough, I suppose, but once I started to suspect that it was merely a surface game, I began to find it a little irritating. It does conflict directly with the 5 desire of understanding the world.

    I don't think of 4s as hipsters for being "joiners" or anything like that. I think of 4s as hipsters by being bothered by someone being a "joiner".... the identity they adopt is meant to set them apart, so they don't like too many people adopting that identity. Which is where the reinvention and re-labeling comes in.


    Anyway, I'm trying to be objective with this post and not overly critical, so if I offended anyone, I apologize. I'm just stating the way I tend to feel about it.

    I think of 3s more as over-achievers with lots of ambition. They want to be the best, to be champions, so to speak, seeking the approval and admiration of others. 3w4s might end up looking like "joiners" or "scenesters" to a 4 though, but it's motivated by approval from others, not really by an urge to be "different".
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  6. #26
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I guess the bigger question is why there are not more 2's and 3's here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    A better question is, why are there no 3-wingers?
    An even better question: what makes people think their current question is better/bigger than the others?

  7. #27
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    Would you agree?
    Compared to how w5s describe themselves, I am more of those things, but I see no reason why they should be related to a 3's influence. Just like 5, 3 is a competence type. I also don't know or observe enough other w3s to make any call on what they are like as a type.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

    RLOAX (don't do it)
    Melancholic Hufflepuff
    A lonely island where only what is permitted to move moves, becomes an ideal. Jung

    Kiss Kiss [johari] Bang Bang [nohari]

  8. #28
    Stansmith
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    An even better question: what makes people think their current question is better/bigger than the others?
    Yeah, I realize the wording was a bit awkward. I apologize if the OP was offended.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    6w5, perhaps? I must admit that I would probably find it very difficult to type an Ennegram 6 myself. I only understand the description to the extent that I can observe those tendencies in myself with my 6 wing, but I have no idea how they would manifest in other people.
    Oh. That. OK, small rant coming.

    Well, ftr, I'm not a 6w5, unfortunately. No fucking way--I typed that way for over a year and tried to make myself see it (i.e., brainwashed myself) literally 24/7.

    I mean I literally ruminated through my entire life trying to interpret everything to fit that mould, I interpreted my every action as being 6-motivated...I was chronically ill during this time, so I had the time to do this...and in the end I just got really frustrated that the enneagram applied to EVERYONE else, except me. I just complained all the time about how everyone else was so privileged to have something that helps them, whereas I was weirdly deprived of Enneahelp. I became extremely bitter, took it out on myself by telling myself I just "couldn't admit it", feeling depressed that I was such an idiot I couldn't even see it, and ended up digging myself into a completely unnecessary psychological hole. I wound up claiming that I was the "special" 6 who just was completely unlike the others, meanwhile hating the fact that Type 6 did nothing to explain "who I really am". (Can you see where I'm going with this? LOL)

    I took a year to brainwash myself into seeing it, and I still haven't been able to make myself see it. But, believe me, when I first started online, it made a lot of sense (so I see your perspective here). I'm not necessarily the model of what people think of when they think "4w5". I didn't really think I was one type or the other "enough" to be anything else other than 6, plus I've got that outward-inward energy flow, plus I'm contradictory as fuck. If I were a 6 that would make everything so much easier for me, but the motivations, mindset, and life story just don't check out.

    Having read a number of credible authors by now and interviewing my 6w5 father, I'm eminently certain I'm not a core 6 (though it is certainly my head-fix!).

    I doubt 3s are the only ennegram type to be superficial. 5's do this too, if they are overly self-conscious abut the stigma of being a 5.
    Yeah. I don't think they are superficial. They use outward standards of success to validate their individual worth, which sometimes isn't what they really want to be doing. But that doesn't make anyone "superficial". Heck, 7s are sometimes called "superficial" even in standard literature, and 9s can be "surface" people themselves. And I've seen 1s that emphasize form over content. We'd have to define precisely what is meant by "superficial" in order to really determine which type fulfills that most, and even then, probably each type has its own version of it.

    I do think there is something about a 4 that likes disguises and smoke-screens. This is why I associate them with hipsters. A lot of unhealthy 4s do seem to want to appear "impossible to classify" and the chief vehicle for doing this is by being deliberately confusing. An example of this would be someone who refuses to be called an "anarchist" but is instead a "horizontalist", and cannot articulate how that is different. I think someone like that is probably 4 (and also, a hipster!) Not because of the political philosophy itself, but because of aiming for obscurity over clarity or external results. The goal is not to understand the world, or really to affect change, but to seem distinct from others. (Though some of that probably has roots in postmodernism. )

    It's harmless enough, I suppose, but once I started to suspect that it was merely a surface game, I began to find it a little irritating. It does conflict directly with the 5 desire of understanding the world.

    I don't think of 4s as hipsters for being "joiners" or anything like that. I think of 4s as hipsters by being bothered by someone being a "joiner".... the identity they adopt is meant to set them apart, so they don't like too many people adopting that identity. Which is where the reinvention and re-labeling comes in.
    I dunno about that last paragraph, but I am definitely guilty of the whole "I AM DIFFERENT AND UNCLASSIFIABLE" thing. It's at it's worst when someone tries to dictate what I am to me or what I can and can't do (for example, female gender roles, Americans, type 6). I think it IS a surface game, since clearly those are just outward markers of identity rather than anything deeper, but at the same time, it's often just a game. And to be fair to 4s, some of that is a game in response to outward things, but some of it is genuine, in response to a desire to be true to oneself and follow one's own way. Halfway between the outward achievements of the 3 and the deeper understanding of the 5.

    Anyway, I'm trying to be objective with this post and not overly critical, so if I offended anyone, I apologize. I'm just stating the way I tend to feel about it.

    I think of 3s more as over-achievers with lots of ambition. They want to be the best, to be champions, so to speak, seeking the approval and admiration of others. 3w4s might end up looking like "joiners" or "scenesters" to a 4 though, but it's motivated by approval from others, not really by an urge to be "different".
    Speaking for myself, it would seem more like they'd "sold out" for approval. I don't tend to look at others as "joiners", more just the people who "get it" versus the "shallow people who don't". But I'm just one 4.

    Thanks for the interesting conversation, btw.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haven View Post
    @Sanjuro no point, I just think you're very relatable
    I'm glad you can relate to me. Samurai to samurai.

    But, I'd question how many people literally build their lives around the criteria I mentioned? Most teenagers, for instance, AREN'T told by their parents to make more friends because they've spent the last two years inside researching the intricacies of ancient Arabic grammar, collecting and mastering the Final Fantasy series, taking notes on things under a microscope, and otherwise avoiding human interaction and the development of social skills. Or else I'm missing out on something major about kids these days!

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