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  1. #11
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    could be instinct, could be mbti type. I think it has to do with function dominance. Fi dom 4's seem to be self critical, Ni dom 4's seem to be "WHY WON'T ANYONE BELIEVE I'M SUPER DOOPER WHEN I SAY I AM?"
    This is quite funny, but if this is true then I think I fall in the middle somewhere. I'm quite self critical when I say something stupid, or may have offended someone, and though sometimes I wonder why some people "don't believe I'm SUPER DOOPER" at things that I am good at, I would never say that I am.

    Onto @brainheart 's OP and the topic at hand. This is a great question and one that I'm not sure I have totally figured out yet. I've actually wondered more than a dozen times in the past couple of months if I might actually be Sx/So instead of Sx/Sp. I mention that because I do feel the social shame attributed to the social 4, just not all of the time. I find it so hard to tell as a 4 about Sp because I'm an introvert who considers every aesthetic element of my living space. Some would call that Sp-ish, but I'm beginning to realize it's not, it's just 4-ish. Besides, I am not overly welfare concerned as far as things like: locked doors, things being stolen, finances, my physical health or comfort, etc.

    As far as envy goes, I unfortunately can relate to Naranjo's descriptions of Sx 4. He describes the envy of an Sx 4 as almost cannibalistic, "I envy you, so I kill you." is the way I believe he put it, very much in Cain style. Yep, not so pretty but there it is. I've grown a lot in this area, and though I still sometimes want to jack people in the face (mostly only when my envy of them is tied to feeling plagiarized or copied), I've become very capable in the self control department.

    I do agree with the aforementioned concept of envying the abilities, friendships, circumstances of others as apposed to envying them as individuals-- that doesn't really happen because I frankly like being myself.
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  2. #12
    Just a note... LittleV's Avatar
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    When you feel different (for whatever reason), you may envy others' seeming similarities... but you might learn to get over it. On the other hand... envying everything in your path through comparison and feeling constant shame is more linked to Neuroticism if it's consistent (and can lead to disorders if it would negatively affect your personal relationships for long enough -- i.e. vulnerable narcissism). I'm not a jealous person but I'd sometimes feel it (as well as shame); at my low moments, I'd get disappointed by how much others wouldn't know or understand about me (even if I'd try to tell them). Truth be told, those who have hurt me the most were not those who were indifferent or merely rudely careless toward me; they were the ones who would consistently try to find ways to feel better about themselves by bringing others down. Scientifically, active intent to harm (also known as aggression) in a consistent manner is referred to as bullying... and there are many forms of it. Hurt people (as well as insensitive people) hurt people. So when I'd try to help others... it's for their sake as well as others'. It's one thing to be too sensitive and being hurt by everything (not often good)... and another to be legitimately targeted and abused in some manner (often worse).

    As an sx-first... I'd mostly feel it when my partner would get too flirty with others. But even then, I could find ways to work with that.

  3. #13
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    could be instinct, could be mbti type. I think it has to do with function dominance. Fi dom 4's seem to be self critical, Ni dom 4's seem to be "WHY WON'T ANYONE BELIEVE I'M SUPER DOOPER WHEN I SAY I AM?"
    For once, I agree. But internally I suspect INFJs are more self-critical than they appear (or so they claim) and INFPs more elitist than they appear (but others DO seem to pick up on this).

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleV View Post
    When you feel different (for whatever reason), you may envy others' seeming similarities... but you might learn to get over it. On the other hand... envying everything in your path through comparison and feeling constant shame is more linked to Neuroticism if it's consistent (and can lead to disorders if it would negatively affect your personal relationships for long enough -- i.e. vulnerable narcissism). I'm not a jealous person but I'd sometimes feel it (as well as shame); at my low moments, I'd get disappointed by how much others wouldn't know or understand about me (even if I'd try to tell them).
    The whole "4s think/try so hard to be special" thing is annoying precisely because of this reality....how I long to be extremely normal, just like everyone else. But it feels like a constant battle between authenticity and posturing to be liked and loved. I reject the latter & tend to point blame at others for not appreciating something outside of their comfort zones.

    I too am not a jealous person. I had a hard time identifying envy in myself in the obvious sense. When I first read this about 4s, I balked. I thought the relation of the ego fixes to "sins" forced. But then I started to grasp what was really meant by envy... it's more about longing, a sense of something missing that others seem to have, feeling short-changed in life, etc. It's not being threatened by the beauty of others. I love the beauty in others...it motivates & inspires me. I consider them "in my class" (that proximity to 3 vanity). When I feel intense resentment, it's when someone I see as mundane, inferior, receives what I feel deprived of - which usually is connected to love, liking, admiration, respect, significance, etc. My envy is experienced as INJUSTICE. The connection to 1 super-ego and 2 pride is obvious.... and I had a hard time seeing disintegration to 2 pride in myself too. I had to see "neediness" through the lens of PRIDE as a way of coping with envy and shame to relate to it.

    I tend to experience "not being known" or "not being understood" as being meaningless to others (not willing to know me for lack of motivation due to my lack of being important enough). Being an sp-dom, I am driven to care for my own survival, and in 4 terms, this means grabbing the reigns of my own meaning. I will create my own meaning; it is not dependent on others. And the sx instinct is the seething resentment at the "ordinary" people who receive the some significant placement in the world because the "fit in". I do feel the so inhibition of shame....but it inhibits more than drives, and I see so-dom as taking a critical eye coupled with some elitist niche-seeking moreso than neglect due to scorn.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I just found this article about shame, and it's pretty interesting how similar it is to descriptions of four: http://www.angriesout.com/teach8.htm
    Ah yes, I see these connections. The illustrative examples of Proust=social, Van Gogh=self-pres & Baudelaire=sexual work well for me to explain shame & envy in 4s.
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  4. #14
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    I don't think I've ever wanted to be "normal" or like "everybody else" - I wanted to be completely myself but with myself being someone I can see the worth and value in; I imagine my "true self" to be free of the flaws that have existed in my life and to live the most fulfilled life possible. To be like everyone else is to be broken and to long for what they possess (perceiving their strengths to be your salvation) is the sweetest nectar but ultimately the chains that bind you. I try and keep mind to look within myself, pull salvage from the wreckage which is my mediocity and nurture my strengths and that the only solution which would ever be in my grasp lies within the self. However when I'm under stress I forget this to my detriment.
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  5. #15
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    For once, I agree. But internally I suspect INFJs are more self-critical than they appear (or so they claim) and INFPs more elitist than they appear (but others DO seem to pick up on this).



    The whole "4s think/try so hard to be special" thing is annoying precisely because of this reality....how I long to be extremely normal, just like everyone else. But it feels like a constant battle between authenticity and posturing to be liked and loved. I reject the latter & tend to point blame at others for not appreciating something outside of their comfort zones.

    I too am not a jealous person. I had a hard time identifying envy in myself in the obvious sense. When I first read this about 4s, I balked. I thought the relation of the ego fixes to "sins" forced. But then I started to grasp what was really meant by envy... it's more about longing, a sense of something missing that others seem to have, feeling short-changed in life, etc. It's not being threatened by the beauty of others. I love the beauty in others...it motivates & inspires me. I consider them "in my class" (that proximity to 3 vanity). When I feel intense resentment, it's when someone I see as mundane, inferior, receives what I feel deprived of - which usually is connected to love, liking, admiration, respect, significance, etc. My envy is experienced as INJUSTICE. The connection to 1 super-ego and 2 pride is obvious.... and I had a hard time seeing disintegration to 2 pride in myself too. I had to see "neediness" through the lens of PRIDE as a way of coping with envy and shame to relate to it.

    I tend to experience "not being known" or "not being understood" as being meaningless to others (not willing to know me for lack of motivation due to my lack of being important enough). Being an sp-dom, I am driven to care for my own survival, and in 4 terms, this means grabbing the reigns of my own meaning. I will create my own meaning; it is not dependent on others. And the sx instinct is the seething resentment at the "ordinary" people who receive the some significant placement in the world because the "fit in". I do feel the so inhibition of shame....but it inhibits more than drives, and I see so-dom as taking a critical eye coupled with some elitist niche-seeking moreso than neglect due to scorn.



    Ah yes, I see these connections. The illustrative examples of Proust=social, Van Gogh=self-pres & Baudelaire=sexual work well for me to explain shame & envy in 4s.
    This - with the exception of the last paragraph, due to sx-so preferences.

    Thank you, btw, for confirming what Ive been unsure about for decades - that it is normal to take the reigns of your own meaning and that that is taking care of yourself, for a 4. I've been discouraged of doing that by others for so long and I never...really dared to coz it aint my main focus anyways. It is one of my biggest sources of shame though and it has always felt like a catch 22 - damned if you do and damned if you don't. People demand you take care of yourself but scream at you when you do in your own way - they just want you to be like them *sigh*
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  6. #16
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    I've read that sp-4s are quite counterphobic. Maybe they're the ones who appear the 'bravest' of the 4s. Who knows.
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  7. #17
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noll View Post
    I've read that sp-4s are quite counterphobic. Maybe they're the ones who appear the 'bravest' of the 4s. Who knows.
    I'm reporting as an sx/sp, but I may be the other way around. What we have is not counter phobia, and maybe not bravery either. It looks like courting danger, but that's only because our SP is not focused on well-being, it's focused on 4 values. We're not looking to secure safety, we're looking to secure interesting lives.

  8. #18
    Member Aurora James's Avatar
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    SX: "How dare everyone else be happy when I'm so deprived of joy!?" (Passionate Envy)
    SO: "Why can't I be happy like everyone else is? There must be something wrong with me!" (Shame)
    SP: "I wish I could be happy like everyone else..." (Wistful Envy)
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  9. #19
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    The transfer of blame to someone else is an indicator of internal shame.

    Children who live with constant hostility and criticism learn to defend against the bad feelings inside and externalize blame on others. External assignment of blame is a defense against shame. People who are super critical have a heavy shame core inside. The focus is on finding fault outside yourself but the mistake is never corrected. If the responsibility for blame can be fixed on someone else, the person may feel pride in getting off scot-free. The rigid thinking is I'll be pure if I can make him wrong. It is not my problem. It is beyond my control. I just can't allow myself to feel bad inside, so I'll blame him."

    The child who has been raised with criticism and parental anger may develop the shame/rage spiral. The shame/rage spiral consists of getting angry and raging when upset, then being ashamed and going into rage to avoid the shameful feelings, etc. The shame/rage spiral keeps others away and helps the person avoid intimacy where more pain and shame might be experienced.
    Wow, this is so me (at my worst, lol). If I'm honest with myself, I tend to act out in this way very often, especially when there is conflict with people around me. I do maintain a great deal of shame for my actions but almost automatically try to alleviate it in this manner.

    This thread prompted me to take an instinctual variant test, and lo and behold:



    Hmm...

  10. #20
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noll View Post
    I've read that sp-4s are quite counterphobic. Maybe they're the ones who appear the 'bravest' of the 4s. Who knows.
    I'd be the last person to call myself brave. But I have a memory that selects for moments of weakness, and courage is the most important quality to me - to keep on aiming for, as short as I may fall. It's kind of the logical anchor for other personal qualities. That is, to express anything whatsoever requires one to overcome the silencing forces inside...and those forces don't have to be fear, but any feeling that makes not doing the right thing look attractive. Shame does that well, too.

    There are a lot of things that most people I know are afraid of, but I can't imagine being scary, mostly the things I will do alone and without help from others. Although, those arguably aren't an overcoming of anything because you can't choose the easy way out if you don't know it's there, and I tend to take for granted that I'm on my own and forget entirely that I have other options. On the other hand, I'm shy toward some things that are supposedly normal activities.

    As for shame and envy, I identified those easily as problematic core feelings when I read about 4.
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