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Thread: ESFP 4s

  1. #21
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I guess Fi can be the rich source of this feeling "something is missing" ... I think Taylor Momsen is ESFP 4. Ouch the girl who does the interview is so terrible, but nevermind it's not the point ...
    she seems cool. she certainly moves around a lot like an ExxP
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  2. #22
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    Are you sure he's not a 6? And if so, what differentiates him from 6s (particularly of the ESFP variety)?
    I don't know if I know any ESFP 6's, so I have no comparison. However, there is nothing very 6 about my friend. He strikes me as more of the heart triad, maybe gut, not much of the head triad. I could be wrong, as I'm not as good at deciphering other's enneatypes. But my impression has always been ESFP 4 for this particular friend.
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  3. #23
    #KUWK Kierva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    Marc seems rather genuine to me.
    He's very precise with his words, never stumbles or tries to find the right words.

    You look at his designs as well; very clean and simple, but bold.
    C#2-C#5-F#5
    3 octaves, 2 notes and 1 semitone
    Supported range: F#2-F#4-C#5

  4. #24
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    I think many people are far too eager to stretch the bounds of what the less populous types can consist of (correlation-wise that is). Correlation data started out as saying 4 could only be INFP or INFJ, then over time this grew to include the other types already mentioned on this thread. The current correlation data available on the internet now says that basically any MBTI type can be any Enneagram type, which I largely disagree with.

    Not only 4 suffers this, but 5 and 8 specifically as well. If in truth, those types are the least populous would they not also contain the least variety of MBTI types? Just as it makes sense for type 6, if the most populous, to contain the largest variety of MBTI types within it'self. In my opinion, the most uncommon types (8, 4 and 5) should only contain 2 or 3 (at most) varieties of MBTI types. Obviously this is just my opinion, but I do think it's a valid thought.
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  5. #25
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    I think many people are far too eager to stretch the bounds of what the less populous types can consist of (correlation-wise that is). Correlation data started out as saying 4 could only be INFP or INFJ, then over time this grew to include the other types already mentioned on this thread. The current correlation data available on the internet now says that basically any MBTI type can be any Enneagram type, which I largely disagree with.

    Not only 4 suffers this, but 5 and 8 specifically as well. If in truth, those types are the least populous would they not also contain the least variety of MBTI types? Just as it makes sense for type 6, if the most populous, to contain the largest variety of MBTI types within it'self. In my opinion, the most uncommon types (8, 4 and 5) should only contain 2 or 3 (at most) varieties of MBTI types. Obviously this is just my opinion, but I do think it's a valid thought.
    While it would make sense that a more populous type would tend to have more variety within it, the relationships between MBTI and enneagram and population are all fairly complex, so there may be some variation based on correlation tendency - for example 1 typically correlating to more MBTI types than 4, though both tend to be less common types. 8 seems to occur across extraverted types minus ExFJs. Undoubtedly many combinations are highly unlikely, and it is prudent to assume up front that one does not have an unusual type combination until there is sufficient evidence, if not simply for the sake of statistics then especially since newcomers to any subject are likely to generalize and misunderstand at first.

    At the same time, I have yet to see a solid argument for completely ruling out the possibility of the less popular MBTI-enneagram type combinations. Because they measure two different variables - patterns of perception and judgment in cognition and strategies for ego protection, respectively - there is no obvious inherent reason why a certain quality on one plane would impact the other insofar as to make them mutually exclusive. The only way that could happen would be if cognition pattern or protection strategy ran up against one another, making it impossible for the other to successfully function. A combination that comes to mind would be ESTx and 9, but then we consider that ISFPs are often 9s and INTPs are often 9s and ENFPs lay claim to a few as well, so no discrete preference - not E, S, or T - would rule 9 out. So really we could only make that judgment if there were something about the holistic type that runs up against the enneatype (or vice versa), and I think that would be very difficult to "prove" to any satisfactory degree. Unfortunately it strikes me as one of those gray areas we cannot really address, as it would require such a huge inductive leap.

    My opinion as it currently stands is the best we can do is to say "# is most correlated with A, B, and F", and encourage people to consider those probabilities as much as possible before moving on to the more unusual combinations. But then there is the question of whether there ultimately is any such thing as "true type". Some go so far as to argue type is not static, and there is substantial evidence that Big 5 traits change according to predictable patterns over time, so it is not a completely unfounded argument, though it flies in the face of the conventions of personality psychology.

    So, those are my mullings on the matter. Regardless, if you can provide a watertight logical argument for the impossibility of certain types, I am interested and would be impressed.

  6. #26
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Marc Jacobs is 3w4, IMO, but probably ESFP, yeah.

    I've sometimes thought Gwen Stefani could be ESFP or ENFP 3w4 and not ENFP 4w3 (as she's more often typed). ENFP still seems more likely because of her heavy use of metaphorical speech in regular conversation.

    I think the problem with ESFP + 4 is that the 4 type has problems with sensing & thinking (and I don't mean those in the literal sense, but the Jungian sense; sensing). You can see how poor sensing & thinking leads to developing a 4 fix to begin with.

    ISFP is se-aux & INTJ te-aux, which is why they're not as strange to be 4s than say, INTP or ESFP. They usually appear to be heavy on their tertiary though, and I'd guess most INTJ 4s are female.

    ESFP e4 is not as absurd as some combos, but I'd still expect a very heavy 3 wing, and given that I do see each fix as part of a spectrum where the wings are melding together to form that particular fix, I think this makes sense.

    I would look at 2 sx, 3w4, and 7 for ESFPs who seem 4ish on the surface first still. Some ESFP 8s may even be confused for 4s as people underestimate the emotionality of 8s (assuming they're all like ENTJs or something).

    ESFP 6s tend to seem like very "regular" kind of people, almost like an SJ, oddly enough. I think my brother is ESFP 9w8 and he's more mellow than ESFPs are known to be, and could be confused with ISFP, but he was very much a Se-dom child & still shows stronger preference in sensing than feeling in his thinking.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  7. #27
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Because they measure two different variables - patterns of perception and judgment in cognition and strategies for ego protection, respectively - there is no obvious inherent reason why a certain quality on one plane would impact the other insofar as to make them mutually exclusive.
    Because they are not on separate planes or unrelated at all. They do not develop independently of each other.

    Enneagram theory is not innate preferences as Jungian theory is usually presented. And they actually both type the same thing - the EGO and how it manifests as personality. They simply type different aspects of the ego, but not without considerable overlap.

    Enneagram isn't really strategies for ego protection - the ego fixation IS the strategy for the protection of the self, but a person consciously confuses it for themself.
    The Jungian aspect of the ego is what thinking style a person allows to consciously experience as "themselves". If you're looking at it more as cognitive preferences, then it even more strongly supports that any enneagram+Jungian combo would not make sense. This is because the enneagram fix we develop is supposed to be in relation to "messages" we receive about ourselves & reality during our very early, formative years. Why are certain experiences and emotions, etc, being interpreted a certain way? I can't see how it's not linked to those innate cognitive preferences.

    Add to it that there is not even a clear line between cognition and emotion to begin with and it really becomes silly to suggest that Jungian type & enneagram type could form independently of each other.

    Of course there is no water tight argument because these are philosophical theories to begin with, but within their systems and their definitions it doesn't make sense. It's not about proof, but consistency within the theory that reflects the consistency in the way humans develop psychologically, much as physically we develop similarly and certain deviations are regarded as abnormalities, not a "racial" variation or whatever.

    I usually see strange enneagram & Jungian types put together when a type is over-simplified (or over-complicated, the new way people over type 6) or stereotypes are used to determine type. Many times I have observed on these kinds of forums people asserting they are a certain MBTI type & enneagram combo, a nonsensical combination, only to retype as something else later that makes way more sense. Someone once insisted their sibling was an ISTJ e4, only to later come back & agree they were a 1 disintegrating to 4 & that it made way more sense for them. I have no doubt that person looked genuinely 4ish at times.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #28
    Stansmith
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    @OrangeAppled

    Lady Gaga comes to mind as a four-ish ESFP 6. The emotionally-damaged, impulsive, moody female ESFP sx6w7 is a pretty common character trope.

  9. #29
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    While it would make sense that a more populous type would tend to have more variety within it, the relationships between MBTI and enneagram and population are all fairly complex, so there may be some variation based on correlation tendency - for example 1 typically correlating to more MBTI types than 4, though both tend to be less common types. 8 seems to occur across extraverted types minus ExFJs. Undoubtedly many combinations are highly unlikely, and it is prudent to assume up front that one does not have an unusual type combination until there is sufficient evidence, if not simply for the sake of statistics then especially since newcomers to any subject are likely to generalize and misunderstand at first.

    At the same time, I have yet to see a solid argument for completely ruling out the possibility of the less popular MBTI-enneagram type combinations. Because they measure two different variables - patterns of perception and judgment in cognition and strategies for ego protection, respectively - there is no obvious inherent reason why a certain quality on one plane would impact the other insofar as to make them mutually exclusive. The only way that could happen would be if cognition pattern or protection strategy ran up against one another, making it impossible for the other to successfully function. A combination that comes to mind would be ESTx and 9, but then we consider that ISFPs are often 9s and INTPs are often 9s and ENFPs lay claim to a few as well, so no discrete preference - not E, S, or T - would rule 9 out. So really we could only make that judgment if there were something about the holistic type that runs up against the enneatype (or vice versa), and I think that would be very difficult to "prove" to any satisfactory degree. Unfortunately it strikes me as one of those gray areas we cannot really address, as it would require such a huge inductive leap.

    My opinion as it currently stands is the best we can do is to say "# is most correlated with A, B, and F", and encourage people to consider those probabilities as much as possible before moving on to the more unusual combinations. But then there is the question of whether there ultimately is any such thing as "true type". Some go so far as to argue type is not static, and there is substantial evidence that Big 5 traits change according to predictable patterns over time, so it is not a completely unfounded argument, though it flies in the face of the conventions of personality psychology.

    So, those are my mullings on the matter. Regardless, if you can provide a watertight logical argument for the impossibility of certain types, I am interested and would be impressed.
    You are so straight-forward and respectful at the same time, I forgot how much I enjoy communicating with you. I love me some people who can disagree without making it personal.

    Yes, a lot of what I've read about correlation follows your "# is most correlated with A, B and F" theory, but with functions instead of MBTI letters like T, F or N. A lot of that seemed sound to me, but even those theories rule out a lot of type combinations I've seen people claim. I don't have enough understanding about Meyers Briggs to formulate the argument you are requesting, thought I do have thoughts about it.

    I also think @OrangeAppled is definitely the person to talk to about the subject.
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

  10. #30
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    @OrangeAppled

    Lady Gaga comes to mind as a four-ish ESFP 6. The emotionally-damaged, impulsive, moody female ESFP sx6w7 is a pretty common character trope.
    I think she's a 3w4 & xNFJ - very wannabe SP, but more NFy in her thinking (if you read interviews). I don't know why she is typed as 6. A good example of over-typing of 6 for people... maybe her image is meant to look ESFP e6 though.

    But that's a side point....
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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