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  1. #11
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    How so? I need more details.
    Like others said, there's no cp 5 in the theory, though it wouldn't be far-fetched to say that every human being has phobic or counter-phobic leanings, so I played along.

    Phobic is to flight as counter-phobic is to fight. The way I see it, for the label to make sense, a theoretical cp 5 would have to stick to unhealthy levels of the enneagram. This describes what I have in mind:

    Level 6: Begin to take an antagonistic stance toward anything which would interfere with their inner world and personal vision. Become provocative and abrasive, with intentionally extreme and radical views. Cynical and argumentative.
    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/typefive.asp

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Like others said, there's no cp 5 in the theory, though it wouldn't be far-fetched to say that every human being has phobic or counter-phobic leanings, so I played along.

    Phobic is to flight as counter-phobic is to fight. The way I see it, for the label to make sense, a theoretical cp 5 would have to stick to unhealthy levels of the enneagram. This describes what I have in mind:



    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/typefive.asp
    Doesn't it just mean you act against the natural fears of the type? That's dumb then only type 6s get to be counter phobic.

  3. #13
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Counterphobic might not be the best term to use as it's already used to describe a certain orientation of 6s, but 5s who integrate to 8 to and don't withdraw will have a "counterphobic" feel to them.

    Interesting. It has something to do with integrating to 8, or being in the process of integrating to 8, you think? Is there a certain tendency of, in situation where conflict is simmering under the surface, to call people on their bullshit, like in the video above?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  4. #14
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I can see it being a move towards 8 but I'm not sure I'd call it integration, as 'integration' infers a step in the right direction. I get that way myself (like the video) and it invariably feels bad afterwards. It seems to me that a 'healthy' move towards 8 would mean sharing those observations in a constructive way which is helpful to others. When it's just bitterly pointing stuff out, it's like those observations have accumulated and reached a boiling point*- even though it's acting outwards, which might otherwise seem like a healthy move for 5s- it's still lacking appropriate/respectful connection to others. (Largely it's a matter of feeling disrespected by others, as if the disrespectful connection is because the others aren't capable of it- and I wouldn't call anything that feels like that, a major 5 pitfal, to be a part of 'integration'.)



    *At least, that's what it's like for me.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #15
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Interesting. It has something to do with integrating to 8, or being in the process of integrating to 8, you think? Is there a certain tendency of, in situation where conflict is simmering under the surface, to call people on their bullshit, like in the video above?
    The counterphobic demeanor I think is related to integration, yes. Especially when that demeanor is not due to a prickly defense and withdrawal but of the 5 "putting himself in to" a situation more robustly, like you see in the video. He doesn't get testy and shut down/withdraw, which can be seen as counterphobic, but he asserts the right of his own will, interjects himself into a dynamic situation with confidence. I like this scene as an illustration so much because it highlights a good spectrum of the 5 experience. It's filmed in such a way that highlights the overstimulating nature of some social experiences. He "lights up" when engaged on his area of expertise than could be construed as extraverted, but then deflates when he's interrupted and the environment again moves away from him. However, when pressed again he asserts his opinion in a more forceful, different extraverted "flavor" and puts himself at the center of the environment rather than just being an observer. He takes ownership and command of his immediate emotion, etc.

    I think it's less about calling people on their bullshit and more about just taking ownership of your own mind, will, emotions and getting it out there, ceasing your withholding. Calling people on BS can be part of that, but like Z-Buck says, "integration" should have more positive effects in your connection with the world than it means just arguing with people.



  6. #16
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    When it's just bitterly pointing stuff out, it's like those observations have accumulated and reached a boiling point*- even though it's acting outwards, which might otherwise seem like a healthy move for 5s- it's still lacking appropriate/respectful connection to others. (Largely it's a matter of feeling disrespected by others, as if the disrespectful connection is because the others aren't capable of it- and I wouldn't call anything that feels like that, a major 5 pitfal, to be a part of 'integration'.)
    You are correct in that there can be something aggressive about it that is not healthy. I think I did this a lot over the weekend, actually.


    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post

    I think it's less about calling people on their bullshit and more about just taking ownership of your own mind, will, emotions and getting it out there, ceasing your withholding. Calling people on BS can be part of that, but like Z-Buck says, "integration" should have more positive effects in your connection with the world than it means just arguing with people.
    Ceasing withholding is certainly important... it is easy for that to just manifest as aggression, though. Usually I think that when I do this, there's an assumption that the other person won't listen, or will shout out my ideas.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  7. #17
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    I agree, it's dumb that only 6s get to be counterphobic. Every type has counter-type tendencies, and fear types that move against this are counterphobic.

    I guess a cp5 would study what s/he feared rather than a tangential theoretical topic, or openly disseminate knowledge rather than hoard it. Just a thought.

  8. #18
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    uhh, acting while completely unprepared? acting on as few facts as possible?

    Maybe that's counterphobic ESFJ. A counterphobic ESFJ is nothing like a 6w9.

    penis.

  9. #19
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    What would a counterphobic 2 do?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  10. #20
    Blind Guardian Haven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    What would a counterphobic 2 do?
    Take credit for everything and feeling grander, or take credit for nothing and feeling lesser... Something like that. It's not humility in either case because it's an inaccurate sense of self.
    {The Diplomat}
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