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  1. #101
    Intentionally Clementine Array Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    @Starry

    I can relate to this, fwiw. Could this be the product of a cp6 wing? I think it could. Not sure if that wing backs up Fi in a defensive way, right?

    Like, your values and thoughts are YOU.

    Mine are mine. But while our thoughts/values are individual, very different between what steps on our toes, right?

    The reactions to them stepped toes may be CP in expression.

    Whoops I forgot to respond to this and it was a meaningful post for me. I feel comforted really in so many ways to know that you related to what I said because without your input that would be hard for me to imagine you know? Or I could say it's an experience that you wouldn't imagine anyone else relating to for some reason. And yes, I believe I have a cp wing.
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  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I respect your opinion but disagree. My mom is E1. I get you are talking about tritype.

    ----
    Can you add your experience with similarities or differences of 1's and 6's that you see?

    That is very long argument, however I think that it all comes down to anxiety vs. anger (thinking vs doing). From what you wrote I simply didn't see the anger/acting part that much.


    I am aware that this sounds like BS and avodant argument but all the types have American bias in them so it is hard for me to comment them in detail. For example 8s don't want to be controlled ... but on the other hand I was born in dictatorship and grew up in war zone playing with refugees as a kid. Therefore I know that sense of control is often just illusion and person should be pragmatic when dealing with life matters. Also at the moment my city is the place where street crime basically doesn't exist and therefore I don't have to play the "urban macho survivor", but on the other hand I am immune to the stuff like religion to the degree that I never did a single prayer in my entire life. (something that most Americans can't say about themself no matter what they currently think about religion)


    It is hard to say where types end and personality and culture start.
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  3. #103
    CookDroid Array Anaximander's Avatar
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    How do 6es handle social rejection?
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  4. #104
    Intentionally Clementine Array Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    How do 6es handle social rejection?

    Do you need to know what it feels like to be socially accepted prior to knowing what it feels like to be socially rejected? I think a lot of cps are distrustful of *society* in the first place as are many sx doms. But maybe you're talking more about peer rejection? I think a lot of cps see rejection as a fast and easy way to identify who is loyal and worthy and who is not...but @MDP2525 will need to give you the 6 perspective.
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  5. #105
    Senior(ita) Member Array Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Could you elaborate a little more on the heart being vigilant? Being less aware of [my] heart impulses, cultivating a sense of competency in this area I think would help 6's trust themselves more. I am 4 in the heart center, so my emotions drive my consciousness a lot, but it is always filtered through my mental center of ideas and fear.

    Sorry for the delay in responding!


    {Disclaimer: Everything I am about to describe is the default/healthy state. In times of extreme tiredness, pressure or stress: fear WILL be present. This may turn into panic = disaster. But, most often simply breathing & taking a step back, will return the heart to ’calm mindfulness’.}


    I chose the word ‘vigilant’ ^ because of all it can mean (smile).


    Like…one synonym is: “on the qui vive”. From the French “Long Live Who?” A question that sentries would pose to determine where someone’s political sympathies lay?


    I mention this because a sentry is alert to danger but not fearful of it. To be effective: sentries or watchmen cannot be on duty 24/7. That’s how my heart operates. It is alert to knowing that danger can occur but not in constant expectation of it…anticipating the worst. AND, it trusts that if the worst does happen - it will survive - even happily.


    In this way, it is able to have time “off duty”, with no worries at all. Other times, the heart DOES “feel a surge of suspicious anxiety” like a watchmen might feel in the dark when suddenly confronted. Then, it doesn’t jump to conclusions (again, NORMALLY :P) but asks questions to determine if the threat is real? “On the qui vive”.


    Vigilant can also mean to pay “hawk-like” attention. Hawks can be violent predators, but also gentle and quiet. They flap their wings rapidly to fly, then use that momentum to glide smoothly.


    If need be, my heart can attack things but for the most part is in an easy-going state. It’s content to glide on different currents provided by people & the environment. While also knowing it may need to jump into action (‘flap it’s wings’) to stay airborne...providing my own momentum.


    Where does the calm confidence come from?


    Hawks have four different types of colour receptors. They can perceive what is visible to us, but also the UV spectrum, polarized light and magnetic fields. My heart perceives/collects data & experience in the form of emotions. Not only what is ‘visible’ but what lies underneath. Then, it uses that to navigate the world.


    This helps with being: watchful but not scared.


    “Checking in” when I feel emotions: poking to see if they are warranted, reasonable, logical etc?


    I think being prepared but not suspicious or anxious; is likely what accounts for the occasional perception that @Forever_Jung referenced in the post that led to this conversation. As “not taking problems seriously” or “not being ready for what may arise”.
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  6. #106
    Seal Down Array Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Glad to see this post. I agree that they can look similar!

    My mom is an E1 and before I had her take the test, I thought she was a phobic 6. She has always had a lot of anxiety.

    Now, looking back I see where I typed her wrong and what you say about perfectionism plays into that. Also, the fact I *saw* anxiety is a clue that she probably wasn't a 6.

    Something I ask in Enneagram typing (if I'm doing it myself) is: What enneagram motivation DON'T I see in the forefront of this person?

    I saw her anxiety, I didn't see a lot of anger from her.

    I don't know a lot about 1's but I think what they have in common with 6's is kind of a focus on control.

    I see that control -of anger/extremes - in 1's perfectionism.

    6's in control of - fear - in anticipating it (CP) or implementing safeguards (phobic) against it.

    I have so many other anecdotal similarities I see: I won't say this is for all 1's or 6's but this is what I see between my mom and myself:

    She uses hierarchal structure because it defines what is appropriate. She knows what is expected. I think she measures herself against these things internally. Whether she buys in or not, I'm not sure. BUT when she does?? She does with passion and conviction. The reformer/crusader comes into play here.

    I think 1's are looking FOR something to put their "inappropriate" (self-deemed) feelings and channel that into "appropriate" outlets. Once they have the outlet, they feel free, more at peace.

    (She's also ISTJ so...overlap here, I'm sure)

    I use hierarchal structure to question myself and my beliefs, it's a jumping off point. Should I buy in? Should I not? How much? It's always oscillating. I'm NEVER going to buy in fully. Not like a 1 does, at least because the very nature of my motivation prevents full committment I'm just happy it's there.
    The bold really captures it. I don't see 6's really doing that all that much. Or at least, to a level where it's at the forefront and almost required. Though I'd argue 1's have a terrible time to find a channel, but they can be found to at least manage things better.

    It does seem like with 6's, a sense of perfectionism is born of a fear of uncertainty. It's sort of like fear of the fear itself. Where as with 1's it seems to be much more concerned with practical consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Hard, what causes e1s to react in anger? I mean, I know exactly what you are talking about but don't fully understand the mechanism. Like, for me it's perceived injustice...people being exploited, bullied, treated like trash. What exactly is it for the 1s?

    Perfectionism makes me uncomfortable because I don't feel it's possible and feel to strive for it is imperfect.
    It's ironically hard to explain, because it can be explained so simply: things that are wrong. Wrong situations, wrong people, wrong opinions, wrong beliefs. It all incites a feeling of anger. There are also many different types of anger which can confuse it to the self and to others.

    A lot of the anger is kinda born of a frustration, and it's surprisingly meta. I will often get angry over the fact that I can't do anything to solve it. Someone spouting wrong political beliefs for example, will usually inflame me. A lot of it is because I can't go in and say "no, you're wrong, here's is what's right, now stop being wrong and never say that BS again". If they'd listen then it woudn't be an issue. The anger can't be expressed because that causes a problem, and there can be anger over the fact that it has to b held in.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    Sorry for the delay in responding!


    {Disclaimer: Everything I am about to describe is the default/healthy state. In times of extreme tiredness, pressure or stress: fear WILL be present. This may turn into panic = disaster. But, most often simply breathing & taking a step back, will return the heart to ’calm mindfulness’.}


    I chose the word ‘vigilant’ ^ because of all it can mean (smile).


    Like…one synonym is: “on the qui vive”. From the French “Long Live Who?” A question that sentries would pose to determine where someone’s political sympathies lay?


    I mention this because a sentry is alert to danger but not fearful of it. To be effective: sentries or watchmen cannot be on duty 24/7. That’s how my heart operates. It is alert to knowing that danger can occur but not in constant expectation of it…anticipating the worst. AND, it trusts that if the worst does happen - it will survive - even happily.


    In this way, it is able to have time “off duty”, with no worries at all. Other times, the heart DOES “feel a surge of suspicious anxiety” like a watchmen might feel in the dark when suddenly confronted. Then, it doesn’t jump to conclusions (again, NORMALLY :P) but asks questions to determine if the threat is real? “On the qui vive”.


    Vigilant can also mean to pay “hawk-like” attention. Hawks can be violent predators, but also gentle and quiet. They flap their wings rapidly to fly, then use that momentum to glide smoothly.


    If need be, my heart can attack things but for the most part is in an easy-going state. It’s content to glide on different currents provided by people & the environment. While also knowing it may need to jump into action (‘flap it’s wings’) to stay airborne...providing my own momentum.


    Where does the calm confidence come from?


    Hawks have four different types of colour receptors. They can perceive what is visible to us, but also the UV spectrum, polarized light and magnetic fields. My heart perceives/collects data & experience in the form of emotions. Not only what is ‘visible’ but what lies underneath. Then, it uses that to navigate the world.


    This helps with being: watchful but not scared.


    “Checking in” when I feel emotions: poking to see if they are warranted, reasonable, logical etc?


    I think being prepared but not suspicious or anxious; is likely what accounts for the occasional perception that @Forever_Jung referenced in the post that led to this conversation. As “not taking problems seriously” or “not being ready for what may arise”.
    Thanks, this helps a lot!

  8. #108
    philosopher wood nymph Array greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    The bold really captures it. I don't see 6's really doing that all that much. Or at least, to a level where it's at the forefront and almost required. Though I'd argue 1's have a terrible time to find a channel, but they can be found to at least manage things better.

    It does seem like with 6's, a sense of perfectionism is born of a fear of uncertainty. It's sort of like fear of the fear itself. Where as with 1's it seems to be much more concerned with practical consequences.



    It's ironically hard to explain, because it can be explained so simply: things that are wrong. Wrong situations, wrong people, wrong opinions, wrong beliefs. It all incites a feeling of anger. There are also many different types of anger which can confuse it to the self and to others.

    A lot of the anger is kinda born of a frustration, and it's surprisingly meta. I will often get angry over the fact that I can't do anything to solve it. Someone spouting wrong political beliefs for example, will usually inflame me. A lot of it is because I can't go in and say "no, you're wrong, here's is what's right, now stop being wrong and never say that BS again". If they'd listen then it woudn't be an issue. The anger can't be expressed because that causes a problem, and there can be anger over the fact that it has to b held in.
    I relate to that 1 stuff. I'm debating over having a 1 gut fix. But I know much less about all the other numbers than 6. 9 just doesn't fit because I don't repress my anger; I just feel like I'm overreacting all the time and expressing it will have socially inappropriate consequences. But everything wrong makes me angry. Like I could seriously write a book called "Everything that's wrong with the world and how I propose to fix it", and I'm always coming up with rants about how people should and shouldn't act. But a lot of that is Fe. Do you resonate with that and how much is 1 related you think?

  9. #109
    Rainy Day Woman Array MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    How do 6es handle social rejection?
    I guess my first question is similar to what @Starry asked...social rejection in terms of peer pressure/group dynamic?
    ~Live and learn from fools and from sages~




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  10. #110
    Intentionally Clementine Array Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    It's ironically hard to explain, because it can be explained so simply: things that are wrong. Wrong situations, wrong people, wrong opinions, wrong beliefs. It all incites a feeling of anger. There are also many different types of anger which can confuse it to the self and to others.

    A lot of the anger is kinda born of a frustration, and it's surprisingly meta. I will often get angry over the fact that I can't do anything to solve it. Someone spouting wrong political beliefs for example, will usually inflame me. A lot of it is because I can't go in and say "no, you're wrong, here's is what's right, now stop being wrong and never say that BS again". If they'd listen then it woudn't be an issue. The anger can't be expressed because that causes a problem, and there can be anger over the fact that it has to b held in.

    This is awesome Hard - and super appreciated. It does make a ton of sense...especially the use of the word wrong I also liked the use of the word meta. That word helped a lot too for some reason...it's filling in a hole for me although I'm not quite sure yet what hole that is. In spite of meta though I hope you don't mind if I hit you up with another question... What makes something wrong? Like, earlier I was referring to a mind-map when describing this counterphobic hyper-alert state. It's like something that unfolds in front of my mind's eye showing me that "all roads lead to other people getting hurt"...and I'll sound the alarm.

    From your description I almost got the sense you too had a sort of map and was just wondering what it was. Is it an efficiency map? Like, "if things operate efficiently that is the best way to insure fairness for all people?" (totally grasping for straws here but hopefully you will know what I'm trying to get at). Using your example that I thought was so good...what makes another person's political views wrong? if you can say...
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