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[Type 4] The difference between 4's

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I feel a strong connection to my 1 integration. Maitri's description of the soul child for a 4 is spot on for me then. Being INFP with inferior Te, e1 looks very much like my animus. And then add the 8 integration for my 5 wing, which looks like another side of Te for me. The parallels between that & my Jungian type is very interesting to me.

This perhaps is exaggerated by being sp-dom. I feel the instincts are colored by the core type, so for me sp-dom is not about physical security or health. It's a masochistic attitude towards my needs at times, where I'll take on a self-denial that leads to an indulgence elsewhere (ie. I'll sacrifice my desire for some connection with someone, perhaps feeling not good enough, and then feel justified in self-pampering that can include a sense of being above certain standards others adhere to). This is also aggravated by having a 5 wing with its "greedy hoarding" & stinginess of time, energy & emotions. On the outside, I can be good at giving the appearance of needing no one, and perhaps wanting no one.

This all makes me less dramatic than the stereotypical 4 in behavior & direct expression. I've been called cold and indifferent. But I have also been called temperamental, ornery and a pre-madonna. I can create an enviable image that makes me seem untouchable to people, sort of putting glass walls all around myself, or I'll use the comparison to art - I'll make myself into a piece to admire but only suited for viewing behind ropes because it's not "own-able". I think other 4s are better at being openly vulnerable, which may draw others but become masochistic in another way.

The sx part comes out of me in having a bitter dissatisfaction with things that looks more angry than pitifully sad. I can do pitifully sad, but I'll have such a resentment at even being put into that situation that I end up appearing more hostile. I've been told by a few people that there is something violent about me simmering just below the surface at times. I don't think most pick up on that though, because most just see the very contained 4w5 sp side, with a Fi mask of coolness to add to it.

In short - far less smooshy emotion than INFPs of the e9 variety, the appearance of being cooler & more cerebral than say, ENFP e4s, and less inclined to sacrifice the self through reaching out for too high ideals (as NFJs might) than to do a sort of gravitational collapse into yourself from self-loathing.

---

I don't buy into tri-type/fix. It's superfluous to me in light of how core type connects you to every type through wings & integration/disintegration points. I think it becomes a forer effect where people parade their type like some badge (ie. like their astrological sign) instead of seeing how every fixation is an unhealthy lens they are seeing reality through & that their experience of the other fixations is in relation to their core fix (ie. we all experience far, lust, laziness, etc). This just rings more to true to me as far as how I think the human psychology works. The other theory is cute, but is just too linear. It doesn't have enough of a interconnected energy between its parts, the way a body sort of works collectively to move as a whole, yet each part plays a different role in that, some exerting more influence than others in a movement. Tri-fix sounds more like a role one takes on in the face of certain contexts, aka personas, and how these form your general persona; and so I find it a detractor from really unearthing your ego.
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Messages
650
MBTI Type
SeFi
Enneagram
4
[MENTION=17911]Animal[/MENTION], my one criticism of Naranjo's pov regarding fours being drastically different, instinct wise, is that most of us aren't purely one instinct. You can look at the instincts in a vacuum, but that doesn't mean people are going to look obviously that way. Some people the presentation of the dominant instinct is blatantly obvious. Others, less so. I'd say I'm definitely a sexual/self pres mix.

Very true and good point. The way I thought about it was combining both, but definitely it's true - none of this can be looked at in a vacuum. I'm also a mix. Online I come off very "SX" because I'm more expressive, but everyone who has met me in person from perc - which is three different people - ended up asking me separately "Are you sure you're not Sp dominant?"
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Messages
650
MBTI Type
SeFi
Enneagram
4
[MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION] - Glad it helped. :)

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]
The way I view tritype is that it's just another theory. Enneagram is also a theory. MBTI is a theory. I want to know where I stand within the context of each theory. Then I can decide which ones are actually useful for me personally. The more tools I have in the box, the better. Enneagram, tritype, MBTI, they are all tools.

To me, unearthing my ego via enneagram core, as well as understanding my Ne-Si axis, is most helpful. But I also learned & grew a lot from my mistypes, especially my 8 mistype. It forced me to delve into certain aspects of myself that were uncomfortable. None of them were as deep as the 4 stuff but they were important for me to look at. I also mistyped at 5 and 3 at one point. I had to understand the peripherie - 8 as inverse and 3 and 5 as surrounding wings - before I zeroed in on the core. Chalk it up to my Ne and big-picture thinking; sometimes I don't get to the root til I see the whole picture. But this relationship with type 8, which seems more pronounced for me than some other 4s, makes me think there might be some credence to tritype. Or maybe it's an SX thing. That being said, once I finally made it to 4, the rest of it did seem kind of superfluous, but I don't think I'd understand myself as well if I hadn't been through all of the mistyping, so I don't regret any of it.

I also caution against assuming that someone touts their tritype to be cool. This is true of some folks but not all. I never saw any of my fixes as anything other than a fixation, a problem, an ego issue, etc. Ugly, something to face. But since "8" is among them, people love to assume I'm "touting" something. In fact, I was more disgusted by my 8 typing (mistyping) than any other typing or mistyping. It made me the most sick. I think I conflated my idea of 'lust' with my disintegration to 2, which was really, really ugly; and lust was my big issue at that point... so I am not sure all of what I 'hated' about 8 in myself was directly 8-related. But point being, it has nothing to do with touting; it's just what I know is my gut-fix if I am to speak the language of tritype.

Touting one's tritype is no different than touting one's core type, if one sees their typing or trityping as a tool for personal growth and self-analysis.
 

Galena

Silver and Lead
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
3,786
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION]'s metaphor of art in a glass case works.

In my case, the emotional preservation side is debateable. Though I keep how I feel about things to myself outside of a few mega-secure settings, there is a tension to my resting body that is involuntary and near impossible to conceal no matter how much I keep to myself in words and deeds; one could call that flashing your vulnerability. Ain't that much to be ornery about, but fear is another thing.

The real wall around me is physical. There is very little touch in my life, and that is no one's doing but my own. Jumping into cold water is the same kind of "here be dragons" zone, being shouted at, choreographed dancing, slimy foods. It hurts my knuckles to imagine throwing a punch because it's hard to fathom holding up out there: though I have the same instincts and bones as most, I lack awareness of them and thus don't trust that they'll be there (individiation: I don't have what the rest do).

Sure, I can be absolutely sumptuous with my aesthetic appearance, independent indulgences and my carriage (symbolic substitutes for real sensation, no doubt), but contact with earth, the genuine thing - that is crossing a hard line into another world. It might as well be, because I can comfortably do whatever I want once I take the leap of faith and get into my body. But what faith...faith that the laws of the universe are the same on the other side. Faith, one of the things in this world least natural to me.
 
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brainheart

Guest
[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] and [MENTION=17945]Misty[/MENTION], I hear what you say and I think, hmm maybe Naranjo's got it right. There is a big difference between the instinctual types of four.
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
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ENFP
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Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I can create an enviable image that makes me seem untouchable to people, sort of putting glass walls all around myself, or I'll use the comparison to art - I'll make myself into a piece to admire but only suited for viewing behind ropes because it's not "own-able". I think other 4s are better at being openly vulnerable, which may draw others but become masochistic in another way.

See, I relate to this, but it is just *one* of my modes. I use this one to get some space, distance or when I need to enter a social arena from a place of strength - or want to make a dramatic entrance. It is one of the best ways to make for instance men who would normally harass you or grope you, stand back and actually respect your space.

I'll 'craft' and shift between these images as my environment requires it. While my preference is definitely to be openly vulnerable without having to be on my toes - which is something I am more and more inclined to only do with people I've vetted, unfortunately - I've even crafted the 'vulnerable image' into a specific defensive tactic as it allows for most of the benefits of being openly vulnerable while still being safe. Most people innately don't attack and disarm at the sight of it, and if they are of the kind that attack when smelling vulnerability, they tend to seriously underestimate me as all they see is weakness - which then tends to piss them off as they feel 'deceived' and robbed of what they considered an easy trophy.
 
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brainheart

Guest
[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION], I really don't relate to it at all. I can be closed off and difficult to access at times, but... I'm a lot more open and inclusive than that. More than anything, what I noticed in orangeappled and misty's posts made me think of the concept of syn-flow and contra-flow. So maybe that's why you, as a fellow contra-flow person, relate to it, I think there's an element of exclusion to the contra-flow types that isn't how I operate. Also, when I read their posts I thought of a person lighting a match and them immediately snuffing it out with their fingers. Meanwhile, I would encourage the flame to get bigger and brighter until it burnt my fingers. I also thought of big iron gates and them slamming them shut.

I really think the contra-flow vs syn-flow distinctions are some of the most obvious and right-on observations about instincts. It also shows how much difference a stacking makes.

Syn-flow: sp → so → sx → sp
Stackings involved: sp/so → so/sx → sx/sp → sp/so
Direction: Compelled toward people. Acting upon and with others as a born insider i.e.- deeply human.

Contra-flow: sp → sx → so → sp
Stackings involved: sp/sx → sx/so → so/sp → sp/sx
Direction: Compelled against people. Seething belligerent outsiders; 'antisocial', provoking, reverse-flow change catalysts. In some profound sense, rejecting the human condition, their own and/or that of others.

The two flows move in the opposite directions. This antithesis can be seen if the instinctual stackings are compared in pairs:

so/sx - including, associating, affiliating, networking, incorporating, interconnecting, introducing, unifying, linking, bonding, annexing, cooperating, receiving
sx/so - excluding, eliminating, dividing, separating, contradicting, subverting, confronting, rebuffing, ridiculing, challenging, interrupting, reforming, rupturing

sx/sp - intensifying, escalating, rising, surging, enlivening, invigorating, accelerating, stimulating, energizing, vitalizing, reviving, animating, inspiriting
sp/sx - dulling, calming, quieting, grounding, descending, lowering, dampening, numbing, desensitizing, exhausting, deadening, extinguishing, making still

sp/so - conserving, protecting, maintaining, preserving, supplying, repairing, sustaining, stewarding
so/sp - utilizing, employing, implementing, expending, exercising, spending, capitalizing, expropriating

From http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/133-Instinctual-Stackings
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
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Messages
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ENFP
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sx/so
[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION], I really don't relate to it at all. I can be closed off and difficult to access at times, but... I'm a lot more open and inclusive than that. More than anything, what I noticed in orangeappled and misty's posts made me think of the concept of syn-flow and contra-flow. So maybe that's why you, as a fellow contra-flow person, relate to it, I think there's an element of exclusion to the contra-flow types that isn't how I operate. Also, when I read their posts I thought of a person lighting a match and them immediately snuffing it out with their fingers. Meanwhile, I would encourage the flame to get bigger and brighter until it burnt my fingers. I also thought of big iron gates and them slamming them shut.

I really think the contra-flow vs syn-flow distinctions are some of the most obvious and right-on observations about instincts. It also shows how much difference a stacking makes.



From http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/133-Instinctual-Stackings

It's not a natural response for me though. My natural response is to kindle it, to the point of exquisite intensity, to include everyone, connect everyone within reach to each other. But life has taught me that that is a) not desirable for others and b) painful to say the least when it doesn't go according to my ideal preferences, not to mention c) leaves me open to incredible harm at the hands of those that would either do so deliberately or due to the panic reaction they have when they perceive me as 'invading their space'.

One of the reasons I love sx-sps is because with them, I don't have to do this - provided they are up for social contact. With them, I can slowly build it up or go instantly all out and they just look at me exhilarated and pile on. With them, I can build a world on the energy between us that is made up of an infinite amount of mirrors reflecting just the two of us, till we cannot take any more.

But that is not a productive approach when you walk amongst people with different, yet equally valid preferences and needs. I don't like putting up walls, on the contrary. But it is useful, especially to navigate big, faceless crowds with too much chaos.

It is about what is needed in the situation to me. I'll chameleon to adjust. For that matter, I'll often start out with walls - more for their benefit than mine, actually -, then send out feelers to see if people around me are willing and up for that kind of openness. And if there is potential, I'll slowly build up to that, to the point where we all can be that inclusive, vulnerable, open and yet protected. Now that is definitely one of my favourite ways of spending time. It is in fact my preference. I've just learned to flex and wait for the opportune time to build towards my preference out of respect for the wishes of others.
 
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brainheart

Guest
[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION], interesting. I don't really know many sx/sos, so I'm curious: do you relate to the sx/so qualities in the contra-flow list? If not, is there another one you relate to more? (Just wondering how accurate this list is.)
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
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Messages
14,717
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sx/so
[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION], interesting. I don't really know many sx/sos, so I'm curious: do you relate to the sx/so qualities in the contra-flow list? If not, is there another one you relate to more? (Just wondering how accurate this list is.)

I'd say I feel like a combo between sx-sp and so-sx, then :thinking:
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
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Messages
14,717
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sx/so
So you relate more to the syn-flow?

Definitely. In fact, I feel *off* when I am in fact like what they describe sx-so to be like. Don't get me wrong, that does get triggered in me when I get jealous or protective of my mate, or my social credibility. In other words, when someone takes a hit out on me, especially when unjustified. Then I get that way. I don't like it one bit and I curb it instantly. But it comes in handy, just like the other 'images' I shift to have their purpose.
 
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brainheart

Guest
Definitely. In fact, I feel *off* when I am in fact like what they describe sx-so to be like. Don't get me wrong, that does get triggered in me when I get jealous or protective of my mate, or my social credibility. In other words, when someone takes a hit out on me, especially when unjustified. Then I get that way. I don't like it one bit and I curb it instantly. But it comes in handy, just like the other 'images' I shift to have their purpose.

Huh. What you say sounds so foreign to me. I'm trying to wrap my head around it. Would you say your social instinct operates as a tool or a method of defense/protection that you can manipulate at will? Excuse me if I'm being overly interrogating, but having such command of the social instinct fascinates me. I really don't get it beyond saying please and thank you. :blush:
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
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sx/so
Huh. What you say sounds so foreign to me. I'm trying to wrap my head around it. Would you say your social instinct operates as a tool or a method of defense/protection that you can manipulate at will? Excuse me if I'm being overly interrogating, but having such command of the social instinct fascinates me. I really don't get it beyond saying please and thank you. :blush:

I have no problems with you asking, as long as people don't feel it derails the convo :)

I was actually just thinking, while pouring over that list again, that to *me* sx-sp and sx-so should be reversed wrt what follows them. I experience sx-sp as a lot more challenging, rough and space-craving than I am. I like this about them, it allows one room to breathe, but I'm a lot more inclusive I feel, than they are.

I don't feel like I really have command over the so-realm. It's just...background noise. It took me a while to figure it out, partly coz I was too obsessed by sx-priorities, so I was pretty much winging it. Till at some point, its like that fly that buzzes at your head for too long and you decide to kill that sucker and rid yourself of the irritation :shrug:

So yeah, in that respect, it is a tool to get rid of debris thats in my way. I have zero interest in social stature, networking is exhausting to me, and social climbing just feels vile to me, at least when deliberately pursued, instead of used as a means to a higher end. But. It gets in your fucking way. I spent most of my childhood as an outcast, as the weird one, and the bullied one. So I know first hand what power the social realm holds. And I despised it, for obvious reasons.

But once I got a handle on it, I also discovered its perks. The benefits you reap when the system is properly utilised. Networking becomes easy, not because you make it a chore on your list, but because you connect with people and they genuinely got something out of that interaction, as did you. Harmony in large groups promotes individual happiness as long as it does not stifle freedom of speech, allowing for the right balance of honesty to keep the goals of the group on check, and the maximum of cooperation to benefit everyone involved, and so on and so forth. And having social skills allows me to serve my sx-needs. It allows me to gauge who will be an opportune candidate to bond with, and informs me how to approach them best on their own turf, to facilitate the connection. It also informs my understanding of how individuals act when they are with me and why they seem to change into another person when in a group. And so on.

In short, it has its merits :coffee:
 
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brainheart

Guest
[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION], I wonder if it would be more accurate to say that the contra flow types employ more veils and mirrors and walls than the syn flow types, who are more likely to present themselves as is. In that way the syn flow type is more 'human' while in that way the contra type rejects their humanity.
 

Amargith

Hotel California
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sx/so
[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION], I wonder if it would be more accurate to say that the contra flow types employ more veils and mirrors and walls than the syn flow types, who are more likely to present themselves as is. In that way the syn flow type is more 'human' while in that way the contra type rejects their humanity.

..if so, I aint sx-so. :shrug:

I learned to add the veils and smoke and mirrors as a way to deflect pain and ease the discomfort my direct presence seemed to cause others. Or, to enhance certain effects and emotions when it was desired. They are tools, not a natural state, to me.

I have rejected my humanity though, on more than one occasion. But that I attribute more to my 4 than to my sx-so, tbh :)

Otoh, it would be interesting to see if *others* experienced me in the way that system claims sx-so to be. :thinking:
 
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brainheart

Guest
..if so, I aint sx-so. :shrug:

I learned to add the veils and smoke and mirrors as a way to deflect pain and ease the discomfort my direct presence seemed to cause others. Or, to enhance certain effects and emotions when it was desired. They are tools, not a natural state, to me.

I have rejected my humanity though, on more than one occasion. But that I attribute more to my 4 than to my sx-so, tbh :)

Otoh, it would be interesting to see if *others* experienced me in the way that system claims sx-so to be. :thinking:

I didn't mean necessarily that it was a natural state so much as a tool, like you said. I don't feel like I can put myself out there unless I'm being 100% me. I might get burned, I might make no money, but it's the only thing I know how to do. I don't know, maybe I'm just making leaps based on nothing here, but the syn flow types all strike me as kind of awkward while the contra flow types seem a little more polished.
 

Galena

Silver and Lead
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I see inferior J versus inferior P in mine and OA's discourses, too. Ji versus Je impresses as a conflict over truth, a value vs. opposition relationship that gives one a more fiery center. In contrast, Pi versus its Pe inferior is a fight over space: life vs. void.
 

Amargith

Hotel California
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I didn't mean necessarily that it was a natural state so much as a tool, like you said. I don't feel like I can put myself out there unless I'm being 100% me. I might get burned, I might make no money, but it's the only thing I know how to do. I don't know, maybe I'm just making leaps based on nothing here, but the syn flow types all strike me as kind of awkward while the contra flow types seem a little more polished.

Maybe its coz sp makes you more able to extract yourself from the social forum where doing that non-stop gets you whacked on the nose non-stop as it requires more of a focus on yourself and your goal than on others? :thinking:
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
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Maybe its coz sp makes you more able to extract yourself from the social forum where doing that non-stop gets you whacked on the nose non-stop as it requires more of a focus on yourself and your goal than on others? :thinking:

I'm SP/SX, this is it. My Sx augments the awkwardness with extra intensity. Of course, having SO last, I lived a lot of my life without fully realizing my awkwardness, and then after it came to my attention I feel just a bit prideful about it.
 
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