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  1. #21
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I feel a strong connection to my 1 integration. Maitri's description of the soul child for a 4 is spot on for me then. Being INFP with inferior Te, e1 looks very much like my animus. And then add the 8 integration for my 5 wing, which looks like another side of Te for me. The parallels between that & my Jungian type is very interesting to me.

    This perhaps is exaggerated by being sp-dom. I feel the instincts are colored by the core type, so for me sp-dom is not about physical security or health. It's a masochistic attitude towards my needs at times, where I'll take on a self-denial that leads to an indulgence elsewhere (ie. I'll sacrifice my desire for some connection with someone, perhaps feeling not good enough, and then feel justified in self-pampering that can include a sense of being above certain standards others adhere to). This is also aggravated by having a 5 wing with its "greedy hoarding" & stinginess of time, energy & emotions. On the outside, I can be good at giving the appearance of needing no one, and perhaps wanting no one.

    This all makes me less dramatic than the stereotypical 4 in behavior & direct expression. I've been called cold and indifferent. But I have also been called temperamental, ornery and a pre-madonna. I can create an enviable image that makes me seem untouchable to people, sort of putting glass walls all around myself, or I'll use the comparison to art - I'll make myself into a piece to admire but only suited for viewing behind ropes because it's not "own-able". I think other 4s are better at being openly vulnerable, which may draw others but become masochistic in another way.

    The sx part comes out of me in having a bitter dissatisfaction with things that looks more angry than pitifully sad. I can do pitifully sad, but I'll have such a resentment at even being put into that situation that I end up appearing more hostile. I've been told by a few people that there is something violent about me simmering just below the surface at times. I don't think most pick up on that though, because most just see the very contained 4w5 sp side, with a Fi mask of coolness to add to it.

    In short - far less smooshy emotion than INFPs of the e9 variety, the appearance of being cooler & more cerebral than say, ENFP e4s, and less inclined to sacrifice the self through reaching out for too high ideals (as NFJs might) than to do a sort of gravitational collapse into yourself from self-loathing.

    ---

    I don't buy into tri-type/fix. It's superfluous to me in light of how core type connects you to every type through wings & integration/disintegration points. I think it becomes a forer effect where people parade their type like some badge (ie. like their astrological sign) instead of seeing how every fixation is an unhealthy lens they are seeing reality through & that their experience of the other fixations is in relation to their core fix (ie. we all experience far, lust, laziness, etc). This just rings more to true to me as far as how I think the human psychology works. The other theory is cute, but is just too linear. It doesn't have enough of a interconnected energy between its parts, the way a body sort of works collectively to move as a whole, yet each part plays a different role in that, some exerting more influence than others in a movement. Tri-fix sounds more like a role one takes on in the face of certain contexts, aka personas, and how these form your general persona; and so I find it a detractor from really unearthing your ego.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #22
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    @Animal, my one criticism of Naranjo's pov regarding fours being drastically different, instinct wise, is that most of us aren't purely one instinct. You can look at the instincts in a vacuum, but that doesn't mean people are going to look obviously that way. Some people the presentation of the dominant instinct is blatantly obvious. Others, less so. I'd say I'm definitely a sexual/self pres mix.
    Very true and good point. The way I thought about it was combining both, but definitely it's true - none of this can be looked at in a vacuum. I'm also a mix. Online I come off very "SX" because I'm more expressive, but everyone who has met me in person from perc - which is three different people - ended up asking me separately "Are you sure you're not Sp dominant?"
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  3. #23
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    @small.wonder - Glad it helped.

    @OrangeAppled
    The way I view tritype is that it's just another theory. Enneagram is also a theory. MBTI is a theory. I want to know where I stand within the context of each theory. Then I can decide which ones are actually useful for me personally. The more tools I have in the box, the better. Enneagram, tritype, MBTI, they are all tools.

    To me, unearthing my ego via enneagram core, as well as understanding my Ne-Si axis, is most helpful. But I also learned & grew a lot from my mistypes, especially my 8 mistype. It forced me to delve into certain aspects of myself that were uncomfortable. None of them were as deep as the 4 stuff but they were important for me to look at. I also mistyped at 5 and 3 at one point. I had to understand the peripherie - 8 as inverse and 3 and 5 as surrounding wings - before I zeroed in on the core. Chalk it up to my Ne and big-picture thinking; sometimes I don't get to the root til I see the whole picture. But this relationship with type 8, which seems more pronounced for me than some other 4s, makes me think there might be some credence to tritype. Or maybe it's an SX thing. That being said, once I finally made it to 4, the rest of it did seem kind of superfluous, but I don't think I'd understand myself as well if I hadn't been through all of the mistyping, so I don't regret any of it.

    I also caution against assuming that someone touts their tritype to be cool. This is true of some folks but not all. I never saw any of my fixes as anything other than a fixation, a problem, an ego issue, etc. Ugly, something to face. But since "8" is among them, people love to assume I'm "touting" something. In fact, I was more disgusted by my 8 typing (mistyping) than any other typing or mistyping. It made me the most sick. I think I conflated my idea of 'lust' with my disintegration to 2, which was really, really ugly; and lust was my big issue at that point... so I am not sure all of what I 'hated' about 8 in myself was directly 8-related. But point being, it has nothing to do with touting; it's just what I know is my gut-fix if I am to speak the language of tritype.

    Touting one's tritype is no different than touting one's core type, if one sees their typing or trityping as a tool for personal growth and self-analysis.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  4. #24
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    @OrangeAppled's metaphor of art in a glass case works.

    In my case, the emotional preservation side is debateable. Though I keep how I feel about things to myself outside of a few mega-secure settings, there is a tension to my resting body that is involuntary and near impossible to conceal no matter how much I keep to myself in words and deeds; one could call that flashing your vulnerability. Ain't that much to be ornery about, but fear is another thing.

    The real wall around me is physical. There is very little touch in my life, and that is no one's doing but my own. Jumping into cold water is the same kind of "here be dragons" zone, being shouted at, choreographed dancing, slimy foods. It hurts my knuckles to imagine throwing a punch because it's hard to fathom holding up out there: though I have the same instincts and bones as most, I lack awareness of them and thus don't trust that they'll be there (individiation: I don't have what the rest do).

    Sure, I can be absolutely sumptuous with my aesthetic appearance, independent indulgences and my carriage (symbolic substitutes for real sensation, no doubt), but contact with earth, the genuine thing - that is crossing a hard line into another world. It might as well be, because I can comfortably do whatever I want once I take the leap of faith and get into my body. But what faith...faith that the laws of the universe are the same on the other side. Faith, one of the things in this world least natural to me.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

    RLOAX (don't do it)
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    A lonely island where only what is permitted to move moves, becomes an ideal. Jung

    Kiss Kiss [johari] Bang Bang [nohari]

  5. #25
    brainheart
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    @OrangeAppled and @Misty, I hear what you say and I think, hmm maybe Naranjo's got it right. There is a big difference between the instinctual types of four.

  6. #26
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I can create an enviable image that makes me seem untouchable to people, sort of putting glass walls all around myself, or I'll use the comparison to art - I'll make myself into a piece to admire but only suited for viewing behind ropes because it's not "own-able". I think other 4s are better at being openly vulnerable, which may draw others but become masochistic in another way.
    See, I relate to this, but it is just *one* of my modes. I use this one to get some space, distance or when I need to enter a social arena from a place of strength - or want to make a dramatic entrance. It is one of the best ways to make for instance men who would normally harass you or grope you, stand back and actually respect your space.

    I'll 'craft' and shift between these images as my environment requires it. While my preference is definitely to be openly vulnerable without having to be on my toes - which is something I am more and more inclined to only do with people I've vetted, unfortunately - I've even crafted the 'vulnerable image' into a specific defensive tactic as it allows for most of the benefits of being openly vulnerable while still being safe. Most people innately don't attack and disarm at the sight of it, and if they are of the kind that attack when smelling vulnerability, they tend to seriously underestimate me as all they see is weakness - which then tends to piss them off as they feel 'deceived' and robbed of what they considered an easy trophy.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  7. #27
    brainheart
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    @Amargith, I really don't relate to it at all. I can be closed off and difficult to access at times, but... I'm a lot more open and inclusive than that. More than anything, what I noticed in orangeappled and misty's posts made me think of the concept of syn-flow and contra-flow. So maybe that's why you, as a fellow contra-flow person, relate to it, I think there's an element of exclusion to the contra-flow types that isn't how I operate. Also, when I read their posts I thought of a person lighting a match and them immediately snuffing it out with their fingers. Meanwhile, I would encourage the flame to get bigger and brighter until it burnt my fingers. I also thought of big iron gates and them slamming them shut.

    I really think the contra-flow vs syn-flow distinctions are some of the most obvious and right-on observations about instincts. It also shows how much difference a stacking makes.

    Syn-flow: sp → so → sx → sp
    Stackings involved: sp/so → so/sx → sx/sp → sp/so
    Direction: Compelled toward people. Acting upon and with others as a born insider i.e.- deeply human.

    Contra-flow: sp → sx → so → sp
    Stackings involved: sp/sx → sx/so → so/sp → sp/sx
    Direction: Compelled against people. Seething belligerent outsiders; 'antisocial', provoking, reverse-flow change catalysts. In some profound sense, rejecting the human condition, their own and/or that of others.

    The two flows move in the opposite directions. This antithesis can be seen if the instinctual stackings are compared in pairs:

    so/sx - including, associating, affiliating, networking, incorporating, interconnecting, introducing, unifying, linking, bonding, annexing, cooperating, receiving
    sx/so - excluding, eliminating, dividing, separating, contradicting, subverting, confronting, rebuffing, ridiculing, challenging, interrupting, reforming, rupturing

    sx/sp - intensifying, escalating, rising, surging, enlivening, invigorating, accelerating, stimulating, energizing, vitalizing, reviving, animating, inspiriting
    sp/sx - dulling, calming, quieting, grounding, descending, lowering, dampening, numbing, desensitizing, exhausting, deadening, extinguishing, making still

    sp/so - conserving, protecting, maintaining, preserving, supplying, repairing, sustaining, stewarding
    so/sp - utilizing, employing, implementing, expending, exercising, spending, capitalizing, expropriating
    From http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tual-Stackings

  8. #28
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    @Amargith, I really don't relate to it at all. I can be closed off and difficult to access at times, but... I'm a lot more open and inclusive than that. More than anything, what I noticed in orangeappled and misty's posts made me think of the concept of syn-flow and contra-flow. So maybe that's why you, as a fellow contra-flow person, relate to it, I think there's an element of exclusion to the contra-flow types that isn't how I operate. Also, when I read their posts I thought of a person lighting a match and them immediately snuffing it out with their fingers. Meanwhile, I would encourage the flame to get bigger and brighter until it burnt my fingers. I also thought of big iron gates and them slamming them shut.

    I really think the contra-flow vs syn-flow distinctions are some of the most obvious and right-on observations about instincts. It also shows how much difference a stacking makes.



    From http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tual-Stackings
    It's not a natural response for me though. My natural response is to kindle it, to the point of exquisite intensity, to include everyone, connect everyone within reach to each other. But life has taught me that that is a) not desirable for others and b) painful to say the least when it doesn't go according to my ideal preferences, not to mention c) leaves me open to incredible harm at the hands of those that would either do so deliberately or due to the panic reaction they have when they perceive me as 'invading their space'.

    One of the reasons I love sx-sps is because with them, I don't have to do this - provided they are up for social contact. With them, I can slowly build it up or go instantly all out and they just look at me exhilarated and pile on. With them, I can build a world on the energy between us that is made up of an infinite amount of mirrors reflecting just the two of us, till we cannot take any more.

    But that is not a productive approach when you walk amongst people with different, yet equally valid preferences and needs. I don't like putting up walls, on the contrary. But it is useful, especially to navigate big, faceless crowds with too much chaos.

    It is about what is needed in the situation to me. I'll chameleon to adjust. For that matter, I'll often start out with walls - more for their benefit than mine, actually -, then send out feelers to see if people around me are willing and up for that kind of openness. And if there is potential, I'll slowly build up to that, to the point where we all can be that inclusive, vulnerable, open and yet protected. Now that is definitely one of my favourite ways of spending time. It is in fact my preference. I've just learned to flex and wait for the opportune time to build towards my preference out of respect for the wishes of others.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  9. #29
    brainheart
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    @Amargith, interesting. I don't really know many sx/sos, so I'm curious: do you relate to the sx/so qualities in the contra-flow list? If not, is there another one you relate to more? (Just wondering how accurate this list is.)

  10. #30
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    @Amargith, interesting. I don't really know many sx/sos, so I'm curious: do you relate to the sx/so qualities in the contra-flow list? If not, is there another one you relate to more? (Just wondering how accurate this list is.)
    I'd say I feel like a combo between sx-sp and so-sx, then
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

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