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  1. #111
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Of course healthy 4s exist. Most 4s are average health, which is why it's called "average". However, due to the strengths/flaws common to 4s, average 4s may be viewed as less functional/normal/healthy than other types at average levels of health. Conversely, many other types - say 1s & 9s - are often viewed as healthy or "well-adjusted" in average levels. I'd venture to say that 4, 5 & 8 types are often viewed as more messed up (even if really about the same level), and 6s get some pass on being neurotic, perhaps because their fixation is rather common.
    Yeah, I sort of bounce between feeling well-adjusted and somehow still feeling as though I'm not quite right. But I don't let the thought get to me. I brush it off and tell myself that everyone feels out of place. "The only normal people are the ones you don't know well." Right?
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  2. #112
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    146 – The Philosopher Archetype

    146
    If you are a 146, you are diligent, intuitive, and inquisitive. You want to be ethical, original and certain. Morally focused, you have strong emotions and are inclined to voice your feelings and intuitions. You care deeply and want to help others improve the expectations they have of themselves.

    Your life mission is to find truth and help others understand what has intrinsic value. A true philosopher, you are happiest when you can use your intuition to help others find meaning.

    You can be so identified with what you perceive is the morally correct way of being that you can come across as overly prudish, rigid and inflexible.

    146s of all core types tend to be poised and prudent, almost as though they were consulting with their inner critic to have each word screened before it passes their lips. When you're conversing with them, there's always a third party present: the judge. It can seem like they're always standing at attention. They're also oddly picky about minutiae in most (if not all) areas of life, almost as though they were looking for little things to be picky about.
    This is very true of the 146s I know. They can be so moralistic. The so/sp is even more prudent. I think Katherine says they are really hard on themselves. They are the most critical of the tritype combinations. They expect a lot from themselves and others. I feel for them.

    461: Inquisitive and discerning 4. Most compliant and rule-oriented 4. 6ish. Tends to run high anxiety especially if self-preserving.

    David Fauvre also said that 461's have a bit of a 'bite' to them.

    The 486 is much more assertive that the 416. The 416, 459 and 469 all struggle with painful self-consciousness and inhibition. The 461 tends to being very critical of themselves to avoid being criticized. This tritype is very particular. The 416 hesitates and the 486 impulsively reacts. A perceived threat to the primary instinct triggers the tritype.

    Any combination that has a 6 runs anxiety. Any tritype that has self-pres as the dominant instinct is motivated by anxiety. The tritypes that tend to run high anxiety are the 614 and 694... and then 629 and 639.

    (4)-6-1 - The Compliant 4
    4-(6)-1 - The Idealistic 6
    4-6-(1) - The Reactive 1

    This type is somewhat neurotic. Perfectionistic. May push themselves beyond their physical capability. At the same time they tend to believe themselves to be better than most.

    641, and he's a perennial hothead who does a fair bit of ranting

    I'd been assuming I was a 4-6-9, but I didn't relate to hardly any of the 9 keywords. Am I calm? Patient? No way! I'm the total opposite. To my surprise, I related more to the 1 and even the 8 keywords. My sheet of self-description had a lot of 9y things on it, but I really don't feel like a 9. We all had a bit of trouble figuring it out for me because of that, but we settled on 4-6-1, because I relate so much to the 'self-controlled' and all that, have an extremely loud superego, and am always worrying about whether I'm doing the right thing. And it really explains so much. Most of why I act so much like a 9 is because my superego is constantly pressuring me to. You wouldn't think that a 4-6-9 would be told so constantly that I 'don't know how to relax.' As a kid, I wasn't 9ish at all. I acted like a 4, 6 or 1 all the time. I have a strong compliant, conventional and 'obey the rules' streak. My 6 has got to be almost purely phobic because I don't react like a 6, although I have anxiety and doubt to boot (I joke about being a 'phobic 4' sometimes). I've often felt like I was a superego type and a really strong frustration type, and that explains it. That explains why I feel so much like I'm trapped in a cage and beating my wings against the bars, which is a feeling my type and stacking and wing didn't seem to fully explain. No wonder I didn't see much in trifix theory before--I was assigning myself the wrong one. It was a huge surprise. And god, it's a relief.

    1-4-6: Fear of desperateness, dullness and doubt. Tendency to seek things they will accept, poignance and assurance.

    When the 4 and 6 are in the tritype there is more negativity as a strategy to prevent making a mistake that will bring shame, blame and criticism. This is most true of the 461 and then 468 and then the 469.

    1-4-6 : these Ones are quite imaginative, creative and a bit melancholic. They are extreme perfectionists and can easily feel discouraged and let down by the imperfect world around. They don’t easily trust others and tend to avoid society, but at the same time they crave being loved and belonging. They also have a bit of a temper so their anger can show especially when feeling misunderstood. They tend to support the underdog and they can have a passionate, belligerent streak to them.
    usual subtypes: sexual, social, 1w2
    similar tritypes: 1-6-4, 4-1-6
    flavours: imaginative, passionate, suspicious and sensitive

    1-6-4 : very dutiful and faithful but also prone to angry reactions and, rarely, depression bouts in isolation. This is a more anxious One that finds it harder to hide his anger and his concern with the loyalty and reliability of those around. Can experience strong like/dislike feelings about people and situations and is more suspicious and prejudiced towards newcomers and different groups. They are typically traditionalists, but will at times go against tradition in a rather rebellious way, especially when insecure.
    typical subtypes: sexual, social 1w2
    similar tritypes: 6-1-4, 1-4-6
    flavours: faithful, anxious, discriminating and sometimes defiant

    (from InsightfulInnovations [146] philosophy is centered around the belief that people should be honest, hard-working, tasteful and well…strive for perfection.
    The Six in his tritype exacerbates the appearance of phobias. Jeff [Lewis] is likely the 164 tritype which heightens his emotional reactivity (both Fours and Sixes are reactive types) and creates a more persnickety personality style. As a One, Jeff channels his persnickety nature into keeping extreme order, efficiency and practicality in his work and home life. However, with the Four thrown in he ends up behaving a bit like a frustrated diva when things aren’t done to his specifications.
    The following was excerpted from Katherine Fauvre’s seminal work on tritype:
    146: The Philosopher
    Archetype: They are “diligent, intuitive, and inquisitive. You want to be ethical, original and certain. Morally focused, you have strong emotions and are inclined to voice your feelings and intuitions. You care deeply and want to help others improve their lives and the expectations they have of themselves.”
    Core Triggers: Feeling wrong, inadequate and/or uncertain.
    Core Fears: The core fears are of being wrong, bad, evil, angry, inappropriate, unqualified, corruptible, nonredeemable, condemned, being inadequate, emotionally cut off, mundane, ordinary, commonplace, being abandoned, fear itself, danger, being alone, cowardice, submitting, and deviance, uncertainty, targeted, and chaos.
    Blind Spot: The blind spot is that they can be so identified with what they perceive is the morally correct way of being that they can come across as overly prudish, rigid and inflexible. When they feel insecure, they can be overly critical of themselves and others and appear to be a snob.
    Growing Edge: The growing edge is to recognize that authenticity is not cultivated. Their inclination is to create a sense of self around an identity of being informed and educated. Sophistry is a mimic of being. True awareness comes from being present to the moment rather than developing an image of being ‘in the know’.

    614
    The Philosopher. Discerning and intuitive 6. This is the most particular 6. This 6 is very creative especially with the 7 wing. They can be torn between the need for meaning and need to be dutiful and responsible. This 6 is often drawn to teaching.

    The core fears are of fear itself, danger, being alone, cowardice, submitting, deviance, uncertainty, being targeted, chaos, being wrong, bad, evil, angry, inappropriate, unqualified, corruptible, condemned, being inadequate, emotionally cut off, ordinary, commonplace, and being abandoned.

    Anxiety and worry increase with the 1 and doubt and uncertainty with the 9. Examine your motivations rather than your behaviors. This is especially difficult for the 6, but more so for the 649 as all 3 types tend to doubt as a defense strategy. This is the Tritype that is most reluctant to take a stand for their "own" opinion until they are angry. The 641 has all 3 types that fear making a mistake and being at risk for having done so. They tend to be more likely to show frustration and to correct and instruct others ( especially for the so 641).

    your descriptions sound more like sp1 in the gut. As a sp6 you have a natural iine of connection to sp9. Research has shown that you move to your wings and lines of connection with the same dominant instinct running the show. When your sp6 moves to sp9 and sp3 it is momentary and adding to you sp6. When you shift in your tritype your sp6 shifts to the 1 for solutions and runs all permutations of the 1 driven by the needs and concerns of the self-pres. The confusion may be that sp1 worries much like a 6 but the focus is on improving. So your instinct may have made it more difficult to land on the 614. Take your time. The 694 is much more hidden and inhibited. The 641 is focused on the perfecting and refining...getting it right.

    Both 4s and 6s can be emotional. The questions is what are you emotional about? In terms of difficult behaviors...
    6s identify a source to prove
    4s identify a source to impress
    641 particular, fussy

    Compliance (1-6) meets frustration (1-4) meets intensity (4-6). Very anxiety-prone combination ("stressure"). High-strung perfectionists who strongly value the "correct" way of doing things. On the high side, they often make excellent teachers of the arts or anything they're passionate about.

    I see the fix as somewhat harmonious. Six and Four share reactivity. Six and One share compliance. Four and One share DOI/DOD (direction of integration and disintegration). Regarding respective (emotional) triadic roles, One represents repression, Four introversion, and Six ambiversion/ambivalence. If anything, I think this trifix would result in a kind of over-obedience and lack of spontaneity/open-endedness. A less "extraverted" gestalt

    146 - There is also a "zeal" for action for this type, but it will realize much earlier if what they're doing has no real meaning and will look for something else. They still might feel that they've "sold out" just to ensure security and doing the "right" thing. They need to trust what they intuitively sense and act accordingly, and learn to do this with others, i.e. they must trust what others feel is right for themselves and gives these people room to do that despite the very strong intuitions of this tritype.
    This sounds sorta like me. I wish it had a stronger focus on the 4-1-6 and 4-6-1 variety.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  3. #113
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Actually I suspect a healthy 4 is a 4 who lifts others up as opposed to brings others down. Pretty huge generalization I know but this is how i think.
    This is sort of true. As @brainheart mentioned, healthy 4's should not lift others up the same way 2's do. Ick, even the notion gives me the creeps! It's true though that we do lift others up in health, often times by exposing our flaws or painful stories to encourage others that they aren't alone. Other attributes of a healthy 4 are increased organization/productivity in their creative pursuits, more ability to control their emotional volatility, socializing and feeling a sense of community or belonging with other people. Oh yeah, and not feeling exempt from doing real life things!

    There are a lot more really.
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

  4. #114
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    If the main character of my book is a healthy infj 4 sx, which I suspect, then a healthy 4 becomes stoic and controlled, independant and heroic in a messianic kinda way. At first needing the help of others but eventually becomming a pillar of emotional and moral guidance for others.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    If the main character of my book is a healthy infj 4 sx, which I suspect, then a healthy 4 becomes stoic and controlled, independant and heroic in a messianic kinda way. At first needing the help of others but eventually becomming a pillar of emotional and moral guidance for others.
    I think this is correct. I have been typed as an sx dom and a 4 (though more than likely I am a meagre so-dom) and the above is exactly what I imagine I would be like if I were to be self-actualised and in my healthiest state (though I imagine I would also go so far as to sacrifice myself to save the world). That or become some sort of intellectual super genius who discovers and build a silver-bullet technology which saves humanity through other ways. Of course what you mentioned also sounds potentially like the archetypal hero story formula so perhaps they would differ in some ways.

  6. #116
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    @IndyAnnaJoan

    Here's my contribution to your thread!! Remember, everything I say is based on extremely limited observation, or even pure speculation. Others are welcome to write in and tell me I'm wrong; these are just some initial thoughts--

    Types of 4s.
    The fixes:

    1-fixed--These constitute the critical, high-minded, more frustrated side of 4 in my experience. The ones I've seen have tended to identify with the Fi "strong value system" thing, even if not Fi-dom.
    9-fixed--They seem to be more prone to the sensitivity described by most, due to the receptiveness of the 9-fix. I think they are the ones to internalize the pain of others moreso than 1- and 8-fixers.
    8-fixed--Ever 8-fixed 4 I've spoken with thus far has initially mistyped, often as a head type. There's a resistance towards seeing oneself as the helpless, oversensitive victim that some descriptions emphasize.

    5-fixed--I don't have enough to comment on here
    6-fixed--tend to have fewer tendencies towards the elitism and pretentiousness that some descriptions over-emphasize
    7-fixed--MORE likely to show elitist strains and may have a certain desire to appear "deep" or "more evolved" (especially if also 1-fixed) than certain others.

    TYPICAL 4S--
    Helen Palmer describes a 4w3/INFJ/sx-sp/471 or 479 tritype
    Riso and Hudson describe a social 4w5/496/INFP

    Or at least, my bones of contention with descriptions are on these grounds. I haven't done enough analysis of other authors to give you any more, but I feel that most 4-descriptions are heavily 9-fix-biased.

    COGNITIVE FUNCTIONS
    Some thoughts.

    Fi-dom--I see these fours as the super-hardcore "This is me and I know exactly who I am" type of 4, esp if 4w5. These are the 4s who are big on "knowing oneself". Probably more prone to the outward passiveness that defines this type, and they frequently report being more stoic, less prone to outward drama

    Ni-dom--dunno that many. The ones I've seen have gotten disillusioned with the enneagram when it doesn't accord to their own model. The whole "symbolism" thing is probably bigger with this type than the Ne's. I think the Se-inferior gives a certain tendency toward the "decadence" sometimes associated with this type.

    Ne-dom--more prone to picking up on facets of themselves in others (especially if 4w3) and getting confused about which qualities are "genuine" due to the mercuriality of Ne. I've also seen them be especially prone to internalizing others' opinions of them, due to extraversion's habit of external identification. More mercurial and outwardly dramatic, often test as introverts. More inclined to get hung up on past identity due to the nature of Si-inf.

    THE TRITYPES.

    478 All the 48s I've met have either mistyped or been mistyped by others. The Fauvres say the painis "hidden".

    479 INFP--social--The 4 I know of this orientation always tended to have friends, yet, for no apparent reason, claimed to be "alone". Dreamt of a "rescuer", yet was not an apparent 4. Easily mistaken for 9 or 2. Liked emo, saw herself as "better" than her family. Devoid of anxiety, except for certain shitloads of social anxiety which she channeled into "charm". I considered her to be extremely narcissistic and a "poser". Clearly, I don't like her, but I guess those are the downsides of this tritype. She was very sensitive and gentle to others on the high side. "The ultimate wimp" (her words).

    469--INFP (tritype probable)--This 4 was a "true headcase" who constantly fell apart in the real world. Bi-polar, anxiety disorder, SAD. Super-nice to hang out with, sensitive, ready smile. Her voice is always wavery, as if on the brink of tears (goes well beyond the normal 4ness). Very spiritual, spent about a decade in silent retreat, but very easily stressed.

    486 Ne-dom--Me. Didn't think I was "sensitive" enough to be a 4. Around my own family, I'm kind of insensitive, obnoxious, and take up too much room psychically. See myself as a weirdo who can't fit in with the rest of society (meanwhile considering myself to be enough of an "average citizen" to complain about everything). I've struggled with isolation and physical violence. Strong 1-connection.

    459--I've never met a 4 of this tritype (with the possible exception of my boss), but I associate the tritype in general with an aura of peace and melancholy and acceptance. I find their presence to be most comforting, radiating a quiet benevolence.

    THAT IS ALL. THANK YOU.

    Please feel free to modify or correct my views. Together, we can build a greater understanding!!

  7. #117
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    @IndyAnnaJoan

    Here's my contribution to your thread!! Remember, everything I say is based on extremely limited observation, or even pure speculation. Others are welcome to write in and tell me I'm wrong; these are just some initial thoughts--

    Types of 4s.
    The fixes:

    1-fixed--These constitute the critical, high-minded, more frustrated side of 4 in my experience. The ones I've seen have tended to identify with the Fi "strong value system" thing, even if not Fi-dom.
    9-fixed--They seem to be more prone to the sensitivity described by most, due to the receptiveness of the 9-fix. I think they are the ones to internalize the pain of others moreso than 1- and 8-fixers.
    8-fixed--Ever 8-fixed 4 I've spoken with thus far has initially mistyped, often as a head type. There's a resistance towards seeing oneself as the helpless, oversensitive victim that some descriptions emphasize.

    5-fixed--I don't have enough to comment on here
    6-fixed--tend to have fewer tendencies towards the elitism and pretentiousness that some descriptions over-emphasize
    7-fixed--MORE likely to show elitist strains and may have a certain desire to appear "deep" or "more evolved" (especially if also 1-fixed) than certain others.

    TYPICAL 4S--
    Helen Palmer describes a 4w3/INFJ/sx-sp/471 or 479 tritype
    Riso and Hudson describe a social 4w5/496/INFP

    Or at least, my bones of contention with descriptions are on these grounds. I haven't done enough analysis of other authors to give you any more, but I feel that most 4-descriptions are heavily 9-fix-biased.

    COGNITIVE FUNCTIONS
    Some thoughts.

    Fi-dom--I see these fours as the super-hardcore "This is me and I know exactly who I am" type of 4, esp if 4w5. These are the 4s who are big on "knowing oneself". Probably more prone to the outward passiveness that defines this type, and they frequently report being more stoic, less prone to outward drama

    Ni-dom--dunno that many. The ones I've seen have gotten disillusioned with the enneagram when it doesn't accord to their own model. The whole "symbolism" thing is probably bigger with this type than the Ne's. I think the Se-inferior gives a certain tendency toward the "decadence" sometimes associated with this type.

    Ne-dom--more prone to picking up on facets of themselves in others (especially if 4w3) and getting confused about which qualities are "genuine" due to the mercuriality of Ne. I've also seen them be especially prone to internalizing others' opinions of them, due to extraversion's habit of external identification. More mercurial and outwardly dramatic, often test as introverts. More inclined to get hung up on past identity due to the nature of Si-inf.

    THE TRITYPES.

    478 All the 487s I've met have either mistyped or been mistyped by others. The Fauvres say the pain is "hidden".

    479 INFP--social--The 4 I know of this orientation always tended to have friends, yet, for no apparent reason, claimed to be "alone". Dreamt of a "rescuer", yet was not an apparent 4. Easily mistaken for 9 or 2. Liked emo, saw herself as "better" than her family. Devoid of anxiety, except for certain shitloads of social anxiety which she channeled into "charm". I considered her to be extremely narcissistic and a "poser". Clearly, I don't like her, but I guess those are the downsides of this tritype. She was very sensitive and gentle to others on the high side. "The ultimate wimp" (her words).

    469--INFP (tritype probable)--This 4 was a "true headcase" who constantly fell apart in the real world. Bi-polar, anxiety disorder, SAD. Super-nice to hang out with, sensitive, ready smile. Her voice is always wavery, as if on the brink of tears (goes well beyond the normal 4ness). Very spiritual, spent about a decade in silent retreat, but very easily stressed.

    486 Ne-dom--Me. Didn't think I was "sensitive" enough to be a 4. Around my own family, I'm kind of insensitive, obnoxious, and take up too much room psychically. See myself as a weirdo who can't fit in with the rest of society (meanwhile considering myself to be enough of an "average citizen" to complain about everything). I've struggled with isolation and physical violence. Strong 1-connection.

    459
    --I've never met a 4 of this tritype (with the possible exception of my boss), but I associate the tritype in general with an aura of peace and melancholy and acceptance. I find their presence to be most comforting, radiating a quiet benevolence.

    THAT IS ALL. THANK YOU.

    Please feel free to modify or correct my views. Together, we can build a greater understanding!!
    Last edited by Sanjuro; 12-04-2013 at 11:01 PM.

  8. #118
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Interesting thoughts, @Sanjuro. I don't disagree with how it relates to me personally. I can't say I know a lot of 4s IRL to say about the rest but it doesn't seem way off.

    I would say, under your theory, I would be a 1-fixed 4. I was disappointed that you excluded the 451 tritype (which is what I would be). But then I don't know how common it is...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  9. #119
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    ^ I'm a 1-fixed 4 also. And a 451. But I think having sx higher in my stack & having an so blindspot makes me a bit more fiery.

    No one has ever called me "gentle" before and I'm no basket-case. I can appear to "have it all together" to people, kind of irritatingly perfect like a 1, which can lead to people zeroing in on where I do fall short (ie. running late, not having a friendly demeanor, general moodiness, etc). Some of this sounds like the sp-dom 4 too though.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #120
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I'm most likely a 459. I have had it said to me that I seem friendly, calm, put together, etc. Sometimes I get the feeling that I impress and sometimes intimidate people with how purposeful I seem. That always takes me a-back, because none of that is how I feel. What people see is me attempting to impose something in my ever unruly innerworld, and that little mess is what I identify with.

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