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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    I would never buck the system just to buck the system. I walked away from God when I was 18 because I was just so full of pain and bitterness at the world and bought into temporary fulfillment in other things. I think it was also a little because I felt abandoned, I didn't realize God was just growing me (painful as it was). I returned to my faith at 20 because of the unsatisfying train wreck that those two years of cheap and temporary thrills were. I didn't leave my faith as a rebellion against authority (that sounds way more e6 to me), I left because I was genuinely disillusioned and needed to experience that the alternative was like "chasing the wind" as Soloman puts it.

    Whatever 4's you are encountering (if they are 4's, still sounds 6-ish to me) no amount of push will change their perspective. We need to crash, burn and see the truth ourselves-- that's where the redemption theme of 4 comes in. IMHO anyway.
    yeah!

    hey I never actually knew E4's were about redemption. Is there an article I can read about that?

    I've always felt 4's needed to "experience hell" first hand. As an ESTP, I feel the same need, but psychological darkness is not a place I'm willing to go. I do kinda feel like everyone in the world needs to experience life on the edge of madness before they can return to a life of holy values.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I've always felt 4's needed to "experience hell" first hand.
    Uh huh.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Abbey's Avatar
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    I'm an INFP 4w3 sx/sp and a Christian. I ask God everyday why he made me. I don't understand! It wasn't for him; he doesn't need me. If it was for me, out of love, I don't understand! I suffer, we all suffer, half my days I wish I didn't exist. So how is that loving? Regardless, I have a lot of problems with the church trying to bring people in by appealing to their senses (when Jesus says to deny yourself (Matthew 16)). In any case, I try to separate myself from the group, which I know is annoying, but if I am treated like I'm so bizarrely different, then why would I try to be accepted? I think that I am normal and everyone else is bizarre (why do people care about what they do: nice-looking houses, clothes, jobs, money, etc.).

  4. #64
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    yeah!

    hey I never actually knew E4's were about redemption. Is there an article I can read about that?

    I've always felt 4's needed to "experience hell" first hand. As an ESTP, I feel the same need, but psychological darkness is not a place I'm willing to go. I do kinda feel like everyone in the world needs to experience life on the edge of madness before they can return to a life of holy values.
    I may have chuckled a bit when I read "psychological darkness".

    This excerpt from this description touches on the redemption aspect a bit, but note that it's only in healthy 4's.

    "In healthy Fours, however, the rich life of the unconscious becomes accessible and is given shape. More than any other personality type, healthy Fours are the bridge between the spiritual and the animal in human nature because they are so aware of these two sides of themselves. They sense in themselves the depths to which human beings can descend, as well as the heights to which they can be swept up. No other personality type is as habitually aware of the potentials and predicaments of human nature: human beings are spiritual animals occupying an uneasy place between two orders of existence. Fours sense both sides of their potentially conflicting natures, and they suffer intensely or are ecstatic because of them. This is why, at their best, healthy Fours create something which can move others deeply because they have been able to get in touch with the hidden depths of human nature by delving deeply into their own. By doing so, they transcend themselves, and are able to discover something universal about human nature, fusing personal conflicts and divergent feelings into art."

    Also this from the same place:

    "By overcoming the temptation to withdraw from life to search for themselves, they will not only save themselves from their own destructiveness, they will be able to bring something beautiful and good into existence. If they learn to live this way, Fours can be among the most life-enhancing of the personality types bringing good out of evil, hope from hopelessness, meaning from absurdity, and saving what appeared to be lost."

    Reading that makes me breathe so deep and beam with thankfulness for all the crap I've endured! It's all been for a purpose, I've seen my story used to bring light into the lives of others, make them feel less weird or alone. Ack, it's so beautiful but absolutely none of my doing.
    Find my Enneagram writing here. Also, I'd love for you to take my six question Enneagram surveyEnneagram survey!✨

  5. #65
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    Thanks for sharing your perspective from experiencing those kinds of cultures, I'm sure that really would bring so much context to understanding scripture! I've always wanted to travel to the Middle East, and I believe I'll be going on a serving project to Africa (either Zambia or South Africa) this summer. It's heartbreaking and infuriating to see the way so much of the world lives, but I do believe some of us must see it so that the truth of those conditions can spread, and change can happen. You seem like you totally get that though.
    You're welcome! I think I am the only person in the world who really has this perspective, sometimes, which is often why various theological arguments fall a little flat with me.

    Anyway, I am excited to hear of your future travels! Very cool! I've always wanted to go to southern/eastern Africa myself, so your project has my personal stamp of approval!!

    Yeah, Jesus was a pretty rad dude. It bothers me so much when people paint him as that docile, sheet-wearing guy with a perm in the painting at your Grandmother's house. He loved people well in the face of death and ridicule, and firmly but peacefully defended the little man, the outcast and the shamed. I also love the time he flipped some tables in the temple out of righteous anger at the disrespectful dealings happening there. I mean, not to mention all of the healing, miracles and such.
    Oh yes. The blonde, gay-looking, Victorian-era martyr and sheep. My step-father espoused this notion of Christianity and did more than anyone to keep me firmly unaffiliated (which he then branded "paganism" and insisted I was ruining the family, lol, he had issues). That's not what Jesus was about at all! People should forget our cultural bias and do their own research (and hence, I don't see why independent-minded people like 4s and 5s can't be Christians).

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    The reason I asked this, is because most of the 4's I encounter have seemingly ditched christianity as a rebellious move. They give god the finger so they can delve into despair. I've seen it so many times. It makes me feel like these E4 ex-christians would actually return to christianity, they just need a push.
    How do you know they're 4s? If they're rebelling for the sake of rebelling, that sounds a bit more like type 6. If not, they may have given God the finger because they are already in despair and don't see the futility of something that they don't see giving them hope.

  6. #66
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    The reason I asked this, is because most of the 4's I encounter have seemingly ditched christianity as a rebellious move. They give god the finger so they can delve into despair. I've seen it so many times. It makes me feel like these E4 ex-christians would actually return to christianity, they just need a push.

    Then again I haven't hung out in church fellowship long enough to notice otherwise.
    Oh, I see. You mean like the victim/feel-sorry-for-oneself mode? I don't know enough about enneagram to know if that tends to be a 4 trait or not...

    No, not me. I don't usually have that vacuous of a stare. I think that is an ISFJ look. My stare is more iron cold and aloof.

    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    Wow, I can't even imagine that mistype but I suppose I'm on the more volatile end of 4. Have you read the 4/9 misidentification article at the Enneagram Institute site? It may be helpful to you, but I think you have to register (it's free) to read the whole thing. If you'd rather not, I'd be glad to PM the text to you.
    Oh, yeah. I went there but didn't want to sign in. Pretty sure I'm a 9 overall, but nothing fits me well, imo, with the enneagram. Except the variants.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    How do you know they're 4s? If they're rebelling for the sake of rebelling, that sounds a bit more like type 6. If not, they may have given God the finger because they are already in despair and don't see the futility of something that they don't see giving them hope.
    hmm. Maybe I'm just so jaded by E4's "fml" mentality that I refuse to believe its anything other than a choice, haha. My ISFP 4 ex lived a rather peachy life up until she was 25 when her entire family died and now its the definition of her life. Makes me wonder if enneagram tendencies are actually nurture as opposed to nature. I personally see myself becomming more 8-like overtime. It seems like, each time I'm angry in my life, I'm angrier than the last one, to the point that I feel like I'm slowly going insane. I see myself slowly developing more and more of the "excessive" tendencies when angry. Maybe I'm just finally starting to notice them and they've been here the whole time.

  8. #68
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    hmm. Maybe I'm just so jaded by E4's "fml" mentality that I refuse to believe its anything other than a choice, haha. My ISFP 4 ex lived a rather peachy life up until she was 25 when her entire family died and now its the definition of her life.


    How are you drawing typological conclusions from this?! This isn't "when she broke up with her boyfriend and now its the definition her life," it's HER ENTIRE FAMILY DIED. Whose life would not be utterly transformed by this kind of event, regardless of type (enneagram, MBTI, or otherwise)?

    (That said, your evaluation of 4s overall attitude may well be correct, but this particular anecdote is like proving that global warming is real by pointing out how hot it is in the Sahara desert.)

    Makes me wonder if enneagram tendencies are actually nurture as opposed to nature. I personally see myself becomming more 8-like overtime. It seems like, each time I'm angry in my life, I'm angrier than the last one, to the point that I feel like I'm slowly going insane. I see myself slowly developing more and more of the "excessive" tendencies when angry. Maybe I'm just finally starting to notice them and they've been here the whole time.
    It's always both nurture and nature. Nature is your "operating system" if you will, and nurture is the software that you run.

    Types 8, 9 and 1 are characterized by how they handle anger. Interestingly, you'd think that 8s were the most conscious of their anger, but in spite of the overall tendencies, I'd suggest that 9s are more aware of their anger but deny their anger in any particular instant. 8s instead act on their anger without thinking, not realizing how it appears to other people, thinking that that forceful style of expression is normal. For the anger types, becoming more aware of one's own anger is integration, not disintegration, so your self-awareness on this scale should be regarded as personal improvement - not that there isn't a long way to go ...
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #69

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    I'm not religious, but spirituality as a quest to uncover deeper meaning in life and within oneself is at the very forefront of my existence. I do think there is some sort of energy that flows through all life linking it together, but I don't necessarily see it as some form of omniscient being.

    I focus more on honing my awareness of it through meditation and by developing deeper connections with people and nature. That and studying various philosophies has given me plenty of guidance and inspiration to live a kind, meaningful life. I think this is fairly common among NFPs at least, probably 4s as well. Keeping an open mind to possibilities and slowly deciphering what rings as "true" inside.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post


    How are you drawing typological conclusions from this?! This isn't "when she broke up with her boyfriend and now its the definition her life," it's HER ENTIRE FAMILY DIED. Whose life would not be utterly transformed by this kind of event, regardless of type (enneagram, MBTI, or otherwise)?

    (That said, your evaluation of 4s overall attitude may well be correct, but this particular anecdote is like proving that global warming is real by pointing out how hot it is in the Sahara desert.)


    It's always both nurture and nature. Nature is your "operating system" if you will, and nurture is the software that you run.

    Types 8, 9 and 1 are characterized by how they handle anger. Interestingly, you'd think that 8s were the most conscious of their anger, but in spite of the overall tendencies, I'd suggest that 9s are more aware of their anger but deny their anger in any particular instant. 8s instead act on their anger without thinking, not realizing how it appears to other people, thinking that that forceful style of expression is normal. For the anger types, becoming more aware of one's own anger is integration, not disintegration, so your self-awareness on this scale should be regarded as personal improvement - not that there isn't a long way to go ...
    Ha. ok maybe its not the best overall example. But from my perspective if my entire family died... if there was vengeance to be sought, that might define my life, but if they all died of cancer or something natural, as was her case, my only choice would be to move on with life. So, while her family died, she still dwells on it despite there being nothing she can do.

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