I did think twice, and I've thought twice before posting this post about how you're wrong.
You're comparing religion to slavery. You're literally comparing religion to a situation where there free will is deprived by physical restraint. I'm not even going to follow up on how that makes no sense, since will and action are different. You can do something you don't believe in, which is why it's called free will -- you're free to think and believe even if all senses and bodily functions are disabled.
Where exactly do you live? Iran? Spain during the Inquisition? Salem, Massachusetts? In what world do you live where a religious institution physically deprives their members of independence by physically detaining them and forcing them to believe by risk of physical punishment? That's a cult, not a religion.
It's completely possible -- particularly for fours, but possible for everyone -- to decide of their own will to associate with a different philosophy. I used to be a communist for fuck's sake, and now I'm an anarchist. People change their minds. We aren't talking about babies, we're talking about adults with their own minds.
I'm telling you, along with all of the others in this thread who have already told you, that it's completely possible for a Four to adhere to a religion without losing any amount of free will and individuality. It's done by scrutinizing religious texts and different ideas for oneself, applying them to one's own functioning worldview.
If you have a stick up your ass about religion being a bunch of brainwashing cultists that suck the soul out of their members and turn it into a colony of hive-minded insects, then that's the thread you should be making. If you aren't willing to listen to someone tell you the reason why it's not an issue for them to reconcile their religion with their individuality, then why did you make this thread at all? To find and hear people who want to join your anti-religious circlejerk?
In case you're still wondering, here's me thinking it for a second time:
You're wrong. There is a distinct point where active participation in a religion is an act of free will. I'll tell you what I told you Superunknown. You have a warped definition of free will if waking up early on a Sunday morning, getting dressed up, and driving from your house to the church for an hour-long church service isn't free will.
WTF? I didn't make this thread! The thread was made by DJ Arendee... I just thought it's interesting and I want to join the conversation and post my thoughts and opinions as a person of free will... So you say religions are not prisons? Well not all of them, but a lot of them... and there is no way have anyone can vindicate the thoughts all religions allowed to have a free will...Because it's bullshit. Yeah I am not talking about those highly developed and open minded religions, that allows you to have a free will...I am talking about religions, that exist here in world and people can become literaly a slaves for them. And oh...christianity has the rich history in brainwashing, manipulation, cruelity and violence...and if you don't see it put off the pink glasses. I am not saying all christians are bad, I am just saying you can't possible think, that religion that caused deletion of most of anthic amazing knowledge by terrible book burning, meaningless executions because someone just had differnt opinion, spreaded fear in society just simply because it needs power ower the people so much, the religion that caused Crusades, that slowed down the developemnt of science just because it negates the bible, the religion that prohibited autopsy just because god says...imagine where our medicine could be if the christians would alowed autopsy hundereds years before. Imagine the knowledge we could have if only we knew the greek phylosophy and science better. If we really had the acces to their books. You know what book are we reading about anthic philosophy? The books that were sent from greek to turkey, where they were translated into arabian language, alot of books were lost in their travels from one country to another and then the books were sent back to europe to be translated once again from arabian to latin and then they were translated to other eurpean languages. And I am not saying about the rest that christians just burnt... History you say... It's different now... maybe but did we forget what Hitler did? No! None tells you...history...everybody tells you he was that bad guy...So how the fuck it is possible christians get all fine with this? If the religion is spread by people like this, it's nothing more just a manipulation tool... and if you talk so much about free will, you will accept this opinion as the act of my free will...
What if the rules/regulations coincide with how the 4 thinks he/she should be living their lives?
I am not saying it's impossible, but rather uncommon.
I could agree with that. But be careful not to fall into the trap of those that have cult-like behaviour. Just because some extremists decide to go blow up a building, doesn't mean everybody is like that and everybody conforms to that and support it.
I was born into Catholicism to very 'by the book' Catholics. I think my problems with it had more to do with being a Fi dom than anything, but maybe it is an e4 issue as well. More than anything, I've just never felt the need to have some external guide to tell me what's right and what's wrong. It's always been something I've just known inside of me. Also, I always felt far more spiritual and divinely connected alone in nature. I remember when I first encountered transcendentalism and Taoism I thought, that's totally how I am.
I've never been one to be able to pick and choose on values. Once I found out The Church's stance on homosexuality I was forever severed, because it so completely contradicted my own. Also, I could never deal with how everything is always the same in church. Tradition bugs me. It's so... redundant. There are a couple of things that I like about Catholicism, though, and I think they are quite in sync with being a 4:
The saints, especially those who followed their own values despite opposition from most people: Saint Francis, Joan of Arc, Elizabeth of Hungary, most of the martyrs.
The idea of loving people for their inherent humanity not their external accomplishments.
The tragedy and suffering of Christ. A Catholic Church- at least the older ones- are filled with some pretty gory and intense images. I was always drawn to that. The idea that pain is something admirable, that will lead to something greater appeals.
The art and music. New churches are ugly and gross, but I love me a gorgeous Cathedral with a big ol' pipe organ. I don't want to 'participate' in the Mass, but I love to be in such a beautiful environment. I also love to sing so I like that part too. I think if I lived in a city with a gorgeous cathedral I would probably go to church on occasion, just to sit and think and enjoy the surroundings- ideally when mass wasn't going on.
Also, as @OrangeAppled mentioned, I think the idea of a savior/rescuer is something a four could definitely latch on to. I know that when I was very young I believed in God and had faith in Christianity. At some point that ended and there is a part of me which wishes I could feel like that again. But I also know I can't. It's part of the tragedy of my existence, honestly, that loss.
As a Christian 4, I want to seek out the heart of the belief system. What is it trying to teach despite what other follows think? To me, Christianity is about love: Love God, love others and love yourself. I believe that's the over all theme and everything else is just the details as to how to do it and how not to do it. I think we can get too caught up in the rules when the reality is (within the Christian belief) is that Jesus died on the cross for our sins: yesterday, today and tomorrow. If we are so loved that he would die for us, that he wants that relationship with us, then that should affect how we treat each other. If he died for me, he died for you and it doesn't matter what you do, what people think of you or any other bull-everyone is worthy of that gift.
I can't sit here and scream about "oh the Bible says not to do this so you're a horrible sinner and going to hell" because I don't believe that. There is nothing loving about that. As long as you believe it, you can have it. I use my belief as a means of freedom and not restraint, to look at how I can grow and show that love to others. That's it.
As for the whole 4 individuality thing, I think the more you dig and figure out your own connection with God, the more you can find your individual purposes and learn to like your individual self if you don't already.
Anyway! If you have questions, shoot me a pm or whatever. I hope that explains one 4w3's view and use of Christianity.
Originally Posted by MacGuffin
ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.