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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Unless you live in a theocracy or during the Inquisition, it's a choice what you believe and who you seek out to associate with.
    I understand the notion. I merely find it impractical as an absolute.

    I don't find my being of no real religious denomination of grand coincidence, either.

  2. #22
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I understand the notion. I merely find it impractical as an absolute.

    I don't find my being of no real religious denomination of grand coincidence, either.
    It's impractical that going to church is free will? Is going to the grocery store not free will either?

    Having discussions about Fours and not believing that free will is practical as an absolute is an impractical concept in and of itself. Fours live their lives based on the concept of free will. Why are you in this conversation if you don't think subscription to an idea is an act of free will?

    You might as well talk about squirrels and not believe that nuts are a good source of nutrition.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    It's impractical that going to church is free will? Is going to the grocery store not free will either?

    Having discussions about Fours and not believing that free will is practical as an absolute is an impractical concept in and of itself. Fours live their lives based on the concept of free will. Why are you in this conversation if you don't think subscription to an idea is an act of free will?

    You might as well talk about squirrels and not believe that nuts are a good source of nutrition.
    At some level of human existence, going to the grocery store is far more a compulsion than an act of free will, one more link of the chain stretching back billions of years.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Fours live their lives based on the concept of free will.
    I don't think this is true. I believe they can live without free will vs determinism ever coming into it.

  5. #25
    Senior Member wildflower's Avatar
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    i'm a follower of jesus and a 4. i do tend to be a bit fringy in my preference of churches or ministries. i like more of a contemplative form of faith. God is way bigger than any personality type, but i can understand not wanting to do too much of the large church thing. been there, done that. it's challenging, but a faith community in some form is pretty necessary. it just doesn't have to be large or what the majority may be doing. there really is a lot of variety in the church world with groups like ihop, alpha, the emerging/missional church, vineyard churches, house churches, taizé, etc. we're not all baptist.

  6. #26
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    I get 4w5 sp and I'm Christian. I have a problem with the church though.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Christianity (or whatever religion) is a philosophy and ideology, not an institution. The Church is the institution of the religion. The institution is what would negate the individuality, not the religion itself.

    And even if it did, membership in a religious institution is a voluntary act, made through an individual choice. There's no point along the road where membership in a church is a negation of individuality.

    I'm a Christian 4. I don't really belong to a church right now, but that isn't related to my personality nor my ideology.
    I am not talking about institute like church. I was talking about religionist system...rules, prohibitions, regulations. When the person becomes a part of this system, he becomes a part of comunity, that also believs the same things. That is why I say religion negates individuality. And please don't say, that becoming a part of church is an act of free will. Most of the people were born to families, that already had some faith and for example christened their new born babies, so the baby automaticly becoms a part of church and I don't think the baby has much to say. And it's not jus that sweet babies dewy by "saint" water. It's also men, women, who were born into slavery of inhuman churches, sects etc. and they can't do anything to set themselves free from humiliation and unfreedom. So how can you say a thing like that? Think twice, before you make such a statement.

  8. #28
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I am not talking about institute like church. I was talking about religionist system...rules, prohibitions, regulations. When the person becomes a part of this system, he becomes a part of comunity, that also believs the same things. That is why I say religion negates individuality. And please don't say, that becoming a part of church is an act of free will. Most of the people were born to families, that already had some faith and for example christened their new born babies, so the baby automaticly becoms a part of church and I don't think the baby has much to say. And it's not jus that sweet babies dewy by "saint" water. It's also men, women, who were born into slavery of inhuman churches, sects etc. and they can't do anything to set themselves free from humiliation and unfreedom. So how can you say a thing like that? Think twice, before you make such a statement.
    What if the rules/regulations coincide with how the 4 thinks he/she should be living their lives?
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  9. #29
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polly View Post
    I am not talking about institute like church. I was talking about religionist system...rules, prohibitions, regulations. When the person becomes a part of this system, he becomes a part of comunity, that also believs the same things. That is why I say religion negates individuality. And please don't say, that becoming a part of church is an act of free will. Most of the people were born to families, that already had some faith and for example christened their new born babies, so the baby automaticly becoms a part of church and I don't think the baby has much to say. And it's not jus that sweet babies dewy by "saint" water. It's also men, women, who were born into slavery of inhuman churches, sects etc. and they can't do anything to set themselves free from humiliation and unfreedom. So how can you say a thing like that? Think twice, before you make such a statement.
    I did think twice, and I've thought twice before posting this post about how you're wrong.

    You're comparing religion to slavery. You're literally comparing religion to a situation where there free will is deprived by physical restraint. I'm not even going to follow up on how that makes no sense, since will and action are different. You can do something you don't believe in, which is why it's called free will -- you're free to think and believe even if all senses and bodily functions are disabled.

    Where exactly do you live? Iran? Spain during the Inquisition? Salem, Massachusetts? In what world do you live where a religious institution physically deprives their members of independence by physically detaining them and forcing them to believe by risk of physical punishment? That's a cult, not a religion.

    It's completely possible -- particularly for fours, but possible for everyone -- to decide of their own will to associate with a different philosophy. I used to be a communist for fuck's sake, and now I'm an anarchist. People change their minds. We aren't talking about babies, we're talking about adults with their own minds.

    I'm telling you, along with all of the others in this thread who have already told you, that it's completely possible for a Four to adhere to a religion without losing any amount of free will and individuality. It's done by scrutinizing religious texts and different ideas for oneself, applying them to one's own functioning worldview.

    If you have a stick up your ass about religion being a bunch of brainwashing cultists that suck the soul out of their members and turn it into a colony of hive-minded insects, then that's the thread you should be making. If you aren't willing to listen to someone tell you the reason why it's not an issue for them to reconcile their religion with their individuality, then why did you make this thread at all? To find and hear people who want to join your anti-religious circlejerk?

    In case you're still wondering, here's me thinking it for a second time:

    You're wrong. There is a distinct point where active participation in a religion is an act of free will. I'll tell you what I told you Superunknown. You have a warped definition of free will if waking up early on a Sunday morning, getting dressed up, and driving from your house to the church for an hour-long church service isn't free will.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  10. #30
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Religionist systems, that depends on which interpretation of Christianity/following, which could lean over to cult-like or even extremists. Which seems to combine religion and culture as one system. That is only one way of looking at it. @tkae. explained Christianity well. The system, which is the church, and today seems like a commercial entity nowadays doesn't seem to reflect what Christianity is all about. Conquering countries in the name of <religion>? Sounds more like power hungry individuals than the religion itself. Christianity is entered on the basis of free will. You still stay an individual.

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