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  1. #111
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    poor guy is brainwashed as all hell.

    @The Great One. I'm taking you off ignore, because this is hilarious, and I used to like you before you turned into a...

    quit talking to these people on ventrillo and start making your own decisions. you're smart enough to do that you know. You're a lot of fun to talk to when you're not trying to defend something that doesn't serve you any valid purpose.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    right yeah i remember that stuff too.. it's like the difference between the lil chihuahua viciously growling at all the other dogs vs the big ol mastiff who feels no need to do so. he just walks around calmly completely secure in his ability to handle shit.

    just to clarify that's not meant to be insulting. that's just like the visual understanding thing going on in my head. not saying this about dj specifically.

    just how i personally see cp 6 sometimes in conflict.
    I always get this impression with DJ, at least ever since he changed his type from ISTP to ESTP. Always comes across as trying to prove something. Of course someone cannot possibly change just because of a difference in two letters that people use to describe them. Therefore, who is he most trying to convince? Himself of course.

  3. #113
    So she did. small.wonder's Avatar
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    I know I'm coming in super late on this, but better late than never!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I'm not "allowed" being a core 4 with an 8-fix--the things that make me identify with both 4 and 8 somehow prove I'm a 6. My withdrawn attitudes/lack of an ability to care about petty online disputes means I have a 9-fix. My identity issues mean I'm an indecisive twat. My Burger King crown means I'm ruler of the world. Right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    Why is there such resistance to people being 8s or 8-fixed? As alluded to, I've witnessed this (on several websites actually). I've noticed the resistance mainly comes from non-8s and non-8-fixers, for whatever reason. It is based on words written (often carelessly) in posts, rather than from private one-to-one IRL interaction (which is a far more natural mode of interaction--and probably more accurate for typing purposes--than written posts, which are prone to, among other things, error in interpretation).
    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    I think there's a tendency to view types 4, 5, and 8 as limited membership clubs. You have to jump through hoops to prove you can sit at the cool kids' table.

    I tried sitting with the 5s but they weren't having any of it. They were right ... I'm really not a core 5. But that doesn't change the fact that people who adopt those labels have to fight harder to prove their point than someone who just says "Oh, I'm a 9, herp derp flurp."
    Quite an interesting thread. I was aware that 8, 4 and 5 are the least common types but not that every one who claims them is grilled about it. I'm a 458 and no one has ever questioned the validity of that, online or IRL. I even have an 8w7 friend who is 854 and when we realized we shared a tritype it was an "aha moment", not a cause for interrogation (and she's quite Enneagram savvy).

    That said, I do tend to be very careful about those type claims IRL (which is the only place I aid in typing people, I think typing someone online is far less accurate, and worthless for the most part). Especially 8 I'm pretty guarded about because it is a desirable type as many of you have said. I recently sat down with two individuals who thought they were 8's, one turned out to be a 7w8 and the other a 3w4-- the individuals came to these conclusions by reading The Wisdom of the Enneagram while I gave commentary, suggestion and ear to their thoughts, experiences and questions.

    On the comments about 6 and 8 having horrible descriptions, I respectfully disagree. I know a ton of 6's who have self typed by the description in the aforementioned text, and I agree with them. One is my counter-phobic 6w7 brother who is a very strong character, yet he still accepts his typing because it's true. Before I ever walk someone through the material, I stress raw honesty as crucial. Dishonesty will only produced false results which will not help (and probably hinder) any self work/awareness or growth. I even suggest accountability by having a close friend or loved one on hand when typing to call out any BS or sugarcoating when they are self assessing. If I know them well enough, I don't hesitate to call out falsehood either.

    I think 8 specifically is much easier to type IRL because you can feel an 8-- or I can anyway. They have a very full and solid presence that generally makes people shift stance a bit, and there's no show about it (though it feels like there is). Generally speaking if I don't feel met or pushed, an 8 is not present.
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  4. #114
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I don't see the idea of 8s being cool-headed all time. They are in the anger triad and the type who displays it, while 9s repress it unconsciously it ("forget it") and 1s repress it consciously.

    As parallels, the heart types have 2s being the most open with their self-love (as a fix for their love-need). 3s repress it unconsciously, channeling it into need for achievement. 4s repress it consciously and have the battle between elitism and poor self-image.
    The head types have 5s being consciously repressive of anxiety (ie. limiting responsibilities, interactions, etc), 6s being most openly anxious, and 7s forgetting their anxiety with the distraction of hedonistic pursuits and novel ideas.

    The types which are most open with their center "use" it against others. It becomes a tool almost. 6s use anxiety to protect themselves; that's almost why they look to confirm suspicions or fears. 8s use anger to bully or intimidate others, which gives them power to satiate their needs. 2s use displays or promises of "love" to woo others into giving them what they need.

    7s can get bossy or bullying also, as a way to push for their desires to be fed (because the anxiety of having to face any pain/boredom/whatever begins to creep up), but they try to please & coerce more. 8s may just BLOW. IMO, this is most true of se-dom 8s. I'm quite sure I know an ESFP e8 and the dude just has no hold-back. It's not fear-drive, it's just like he's quick to punish or assert power by screaming at someone if some desire of his is being opposed. This is very much anger-driven, and they have no hesitation to unleash it on someone; it's like a toddler screaming for their way - there's an entitlement in their lust. Is there is a threatened theme? Is there a rush towards the fears? Yes. But this is not out of line with 8 traits. Consider these points Naranjo aligns with the low-functioning 8: hostile affectivity (flares readily into arguments & attacks), assertive self-image (proudly characterizes self as self-reliant), malevolent projection (claims others devious, controlling, & punitive; justifies own mistrustful, hostile & vengeful attitude by ascribing it to others).
    The trait structure mentions under lust: a pleasure in fighting for pleasure.
    Under punitiveness: "Of all characters, this is the most angry and the least intimidated by anger)... This character retaliates angrily at the moment & quickly gets over his irritation".
    Under dominance: "Hostility may be said to be in the service of dominance, and dominance, in turn, regarded as an expression of hostility."
    Insensitivity: "confrontativeness", "intimidation", "disdain for... weakness... & particularly fear".
    Conning & Cynicism: skepticism, distrust the motive of others
    Exhibitionism: bragging, arrogant claims [that are] consciously manipulative
    Defense Mechanisms: "over-masculine" 8 strives through excessive assertiveness & aggression to avoid "feminine powerlessness". Guilt-denial and unawareness of pain (as a result of conscious absence of shame- sadism & punitiveness towards the self). "explains typical attraction of lusty people towards anxiety, which is not avoided but sadistically transformed into stimulus."

    On the surface, cp e6 & e8 may certainly share some traits. What people point out as markers for cp 6 seem to be shared surface traits.

    Naranjo's 8 sounds more like Jung's Se-dom (whose Te-dom sounds very much like Naranjo's 1). I don't think either successfully separated the etype fixation from the cognitive preference, but in reading each, it's clear Te-dom seek "restraint" more than Se-dom, so a TJ 8 may be less explosive than a Se-dom 8.

    Also, 8s are reactive types, along with 4s & 6s.

    I have a feeling many are imagining an NTJ for e8s. NTJ e8 is not going to look like Se-dom e8. S-doms are arguably the most emotionally driven types. ENTJ e8, with inferior Fi, may internalize anger & then unleash it via some strategy. That's not a Se-dom style.

    ---

    I have no invested interest in the OP's type (but find e6n witch hunts silly), but the main 6ish element he's described for himself is that for some reason people seem to think he needs protection (or something like that). This is more of how people react to 6s, as even cp 6s can have phobic aspects such as drawing others to you for support by seeming vulnerable. That I don't see in an 8, but nothing else really stood out to be as decidedly non-8.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #115
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by small.wonder View Post
    On the comments about 6 and 8 having horrible descriptions, I respectfully disagree. I know a ton of 6's who have self typed by the description in the aforementioned text, and I agree with them. One is my counter-phobic 6w7 brother who is a very strong character, yet he still accepts his typing because it's true. Before I ever walk someone through the material, I stress raw honesty as crucial. Dishonesty will only produced false results which will not help (and probably hinder) any self work/awareness or growth. I even suggest accountability by having a close friend or loved one on hand when typing to call out any BS or sugarcoating when they are self assessing. If I know them well enough, I don't hesitate to call out falsehood either.
    When I was typed at 6, telling myself that descriptions were bad was just a part of my denial. Yet, I was surprised by how many other 6s came forward to say that they couldn't initially see themselves as 6s, either. It seems like a relatively common phenomenon to me, based on this.

    I obtained a copy of Wisdom of the Enneagram about a month ago (which tends to be the most widely-read description), and I can see why mistypes might happen. Their depiction of the type sounds, in places, more like an anxiety disorder, and they emphasize inter-relational security (rather than wanting to find a solid foundation in life) and a fear of "trying new things"--which might stand for an SJ 6, but an ENTP 6w5, for example, might be a loner enthused at ideas of diversity and a brighter future (my father being one such). They also state that 6s are always aware of their anxieties, yet many cp6s actually think they are angry rather than anxious.

    I've likewise met 1-fixed 6s who mistype at 8 due to the ethos of "stand your ground, look after yourself, trust no one, and struggle hard for your existence". In Wisdom, anyway, the open self-interest and even sadistic qualities aren't especially emphasized. I can see why there would be many mistypes.

    It is possible that the 6s I spoke with were mistyped, and also possible that other types fail to see themselves in their respective types at a similar frequency to 6s, of course. I certainly have my share of gripes with the 4 description in Wisdom.

    Just to be semi-constructive here, I find that the works of Tom Condon, Helen Palmer, Naranjo, as well as the descriptions on Ocean Moonshine to be very accurate in portraying the core psychology of the types. Other descriptions aren't necessarily as accurate--I saw one site telling me that 6w7s were all Republicans and 6w5s were all Democrats, for instance. This can be confusing for a casual surfer.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't see the idea of 8s being cool-headed all time. They are in the anger triad and the type who displays it, while 9s repress it unconsciously it ("forget it") and 1s repress it consciously.
    I think this is actually a fair point that no one seems to mention. Eights are a reactive type and express anger openly. They are often less inclined to see threats than a cp6 (or at least, perceive threats differently) and can be less volatile in certain respects--maybe roll more things off their back--but there is also an extremely low threshold for frustration and annoyance.

    You've articulated it far better than I ever could, so I'll leave it here, but I think you are right to divert our collective attention back to that fact.

  6. #116
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    @DJ Arendee - I haven't read all this but thought I'd weigh in. I tested several times as an 8 and assumed myself to be that for a while. A few people on this forum questioned the typing, which led me to getting this done professionally by Katherine Cherncik Fauvre (enneacards test plus on phone interview). She typed me as Six with apparent counter-phobic SX tendencies. She provided some great insight and advice as part of the discussion.

    6 seems like the most complicated type to understand because of the contradictions. I didn't really understand it for a while but it does fit and is right.

    I don't know if you are an 8 or a 6 but if so many people are questioning the 8, you might want to have this professionally assessed.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  7. #117
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    When I was typed at 6, telling myself that descriptions were bad was just a part of my denial. Yet, I was surprised by how many other 6s came forward to say that they couldn't initially see themselves as 6s, either. It seems like a relatively common phenomenon to me, based on this.

    I obtained a copy of Wisdom of the Enneagram about a month ago (which tends to be the most widely-read description), and I can see why mistypes might happen. Their depiction of the type sounds, in places, more like an anxiety disorder, and they emphasize inter-relational security (rather than wanting to find a solid foundation in life) and a fear of "trying new things"--which might stand for an SJ 6, but an ENTP 6w5, for example, might be a loner enthused at ideas of diversity and a brighter future (my father being one such). They also state that 6s are always aware of their anxieties, yet many cp6s actually think they are angry rather than anxious.

    I've likewise met 1-fixed 6s who mistype at 8 due to the ethos of "stand your ground, look after yourself, trust no one, and struggle hard for your existence". In Wisdom, anyway, the open self-interest and even sadistic qualities aren't especially emphasized. I can see why there would be many mistypes.

    It is possible that the 6s I spoke with were mistyped, and also possible that other types fail to see themselves in their respective types at a similar frequency to 6s, of course. I certainly have my share of gripes with the 4 description in Wisdom.

    Just to be semi-constructive here, I find that the works of Tom Condon, Helen Palmer, Naranjo, as well as the descriptions on Ocean Moonshine to be very accurate in portraying the core psychology of the types. Other descriptions aren't necessarily as accurate--I saw one site telling me that 6w7s were all Republicans and 6w5s were all Democrats, for instance. This can be confusing for a casual surfer.
    The one time, I made a thread that asked other 6s if anyone had known right away when they started studying this stuff that they were a 6, and I was basically the only person who hadn't wavered around with other types. (Which of course, in true 6 fashion, made me question for a minute if I was in fact a 6.) So this is more evidence of this being a common 6 thing. My guess is that it's a combination of the bad rap this type gets in some places and the natural tendency of people this type to be skeptical.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    @DJ Arendee - I haven't read all this but thought I'd weigh in. I tested several times as an 8 and assumed myself to be that for a while. A few people on this forum questioned the typing, which led me to getting this done professionally by Katherine Cherncik Fauvre (enneacards test plus on phone interview). She typed me as Six with apparent counter-phobic SX tendencies. She provided some great insight and advice as part of the discussion.

    6 seems like the most complicated type to understand because of the contradictions. I didn't really understand it for a while but it does fit and is right.

    I don't know if you are an 8 or a 6 but if so many people are questioning the 8, you might want to have this professionally assessed.
    I SHOULD get it done professionally.

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I think this is actually a fair point that no one seems to mention. Eights are a reactive type and express anger openly. They are often less inclined to see threats than a cp6 (or at least, perceive threats differently) and can be less volatile in certain respects--maybe roll more things off their back--but there is also an extremely low threshold for frustration and annoyance.
    I wonder how much people's perception of eight has to do with the instinct type of the eights that they know (or the eight that they are). These comments about the instincts of six and eight from Naranjo might be insightful. I'll just put sexual instinct for six because that seems to be the most applicable:


    Sexual Six: Strength and Beauty. The strength is a strength of impulse, a knowledge that if sexual life is
    going to operate there has to be some kind of voltage, and let's say that fear is interfering with that
    process. It's as if there would be compensation. A drive to make it unfold, as if fear were not there. A
    "push" forward as if "You're not going to hold me back!" "Counterphobic" is an alternative term for
    Strength and Beauty. They might be body builders, but women can be just as strong as men. There
    might be an ability to stand by one's ideals or being confrontive with an element of moral integrity. But
    even the men have a thing about "beauty" – the word for "beauty" in the Latin language is bellum, which
    comes from war - so it has something to do with aggression, passion about beauty; e.g., Michaelangelo
    was a counterphobic Six who would speak up, not let himself be bossed around. (Tells story of female
    friend who is an analyst and who said to a taxi driver, "Slower please!" and Naranjo remarked "You have
    more authority than I" because there was command in her statement. He commented "I'm shyer than you
    are," and she replied "It's not courage, it's panic.") The kind of strength that Pop-Eye has with spinach is
    a natural instinct that’s "boosted," an element of intention that has become automatic. Very strong
    people, powerful men and women who typically don't have a very happy sex life. They can be abrasive
    but underneath shy and sensitive and not very fulfilled in relationships. Here, you harm yourself by
    developing your physical muscles or your psychological "muscles" in your capacity to intimidate—a kind
    of bulldog. For the sexual Six "the best defense is aggression." The real courage is to drop the fire-arms,
    to develop more of the "wisdom of insecurity," to be able to say "I'm scared."
    In comparison to the eight instincts:

    Enneagram Eight

    Self-Preservation: Satisfaction. Less known about this subtype because they don't want to talk about it.
    More Machiavellian. You do what you need to do to get what you want. More anti-social. Great desire for
    privacy, more Five-ish, less feeling. More contained, less visible as an Eight.

    Sexual: Possession/Obsession. Very angry and dramatic. More emotional, hysterical, in the broader
    sense (more bravado). The will to take hold of the other and make them do what you want, tyrannical;
    passion for possession and surrender (like the Praying Mantis). "Going whole hog including the postage,"
    full involvement, more "sadistic." More angry, more liking to humiliate or insult, sometimes to cause
    suffering (e.g., Stalin or Hussein).

    Social: Complicity (friendship without judgment). Easy to confuse with counterphobic Six, but more
    body/motor focused (where the Six in more "in the head'). Harder to recognize, not apparently angry but
    very friendly. Key element = "accompliceship" or survival through alliance. More "narcissistic."
    Seductiveness makes it possible to be an Eight in the world. Overwhelms out of selfishness,
    incontinence, gusto
    From http://www.breakoutofthebox.com/NaranjoSubtypes.pdf

  10. #120
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    I saw one site telling me that 6w7s were all Republicans and 6w5s were all Democrats, for instance. This can be confusing for a casual surfer.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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