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Thread: The Wisdom of the Enneagram Seven

  1. #521
    Senior Member Array riva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wailing Specter View Post
    When you say pray, is it anything like a Christian prayer, or is it something different?
    For example, a Jehovah's Witness prayer (not sure if you know who they are) would go like this:

    "Jehovah our heavenly father, I come before you to request your aid in doing your will and in helping others to come to The Truth. The signs of the last days are all around us, and I need your divine guidance to avoid being tainted by the false religions unleashed by Satan to deceive me. Please help me survive Armageddon, so I may be fruitful in your eternal paradise and enjoy the eternal youth you have provided me. Thank you for creating the beautiful world we live in, and may all come to see your perfect divine order. In your son's name Jesus, Amen."

    Amen is a Hebrew word meaning so it be done. I never thought those words would enter my mind again.
    I hadn't finished typing above. Infact i added quite a bit above after you've quoted. I keep posting to save a post.

    Anyway let me continue here -

    No it's nothing like the above. Buddha says these beings are just like humans. They cannot forgive you for your sins nor can they send you to heaven/hell and buddha says these beings (devas) are not worth being worshipped.

    That prayer you mentioned above sounds like guilt tripping and fear mongering. I have been bad, please help me.... end of days are coming, please help me come to heaven to be with you.... this is nothing like what buddhists (or hindus) do when they pray.

    Let me repeat again buddha said no deva is worth being worshipped. But buddhists pray nevertheless. Remeber buddha hasnt banned you from doing anything. Your actions have consequences so think before you do. Praying/asking for help doesn't sound like something that will have bad consequences, therefore buddhists pray (not all, but some). It is not even a sin/bad karma to leave buddhism or question buddhism (kalama sutta).

    When they pray it sounds much like what hindus say when they pray - i am in trouble (i am sick, my child is sick, i have an exam, i need a job, i need a wife) please help me. I promise to be good, better and start doing good deeds etc. It's more like asking a rich or powerful or influenzial person to help you.
    .
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  2. #522
    Senior Member Array riva's Avatar
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    Regarding christianity i should add -

    Believing in christ shouldn't prevent you from pracricing buddhism. Yes there are contradictions such as the concepts of anitta, ducca, anatma. These are the three main realizations of buddhism which you would have when you practice vipassana for long enough/what you'd realize when you attain nirvana/enlightenment.

    Anitta - impermamnence. Nothing is permamnent, life death happiness sadness and an everlasting god, heaven etc.
    Ducca - disatisfaction. You are bound to be disatisfied sooner later even if you have everything you want. For example going to paradise and being with the prophets, jesus, angels amd god will also eventually bring you disatisfaction.
    Anatma - no soul. We are no soul. We are a mere combination of 5 things (5 aggregates i think in english).

    If you have still have faith in jesus it is okay to continue to pray to him or share with him your thoughts and feelings if it relieves stress or if you believe you'll have better luck/miracles. It shouldnt prevent you from practicing vipassana/zen.

    What i am saying here sounds much like hindu concept of pantheism. They believe that everything and everyone is an extension of brahma/god. So when one person/hindu is praying to Ganesha and a christian is praying to jesus or a viking is praying to Odin although these three gods are different individuals/gods they are all the extentions of brahma, therefore they are eventually praying to the same person. This is why hindus are quite tolerant of other religions (except for islam due to the history between islam and hinduism).

    You should clarify the above with senza.
    .
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  3. #523
    The Dark Lord Array The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Buddhism doesnt dismiss the existence of other beings and other planets. According to buddhism there are other living being just like humans who live in better circumstances, environments, health, living conditions etc. Some of these traits could be considered supernatural. For example some of these being inject nutrition through their noses as opposed to the mouths as we do. They also have senses other than the senses us humans have. Etc

    However they also live and die just like us, have flaws just like us, are imperfect just like us, are mortal just like us and are subject to their actions/karma just like us. Since they die just like us it when they die they could be born into other realms (human, hell, animal etc.). One could argue this is paradise.

    However, It's NOT a permanent paradise like it is explained in abrahamic religions where you live forever and ever and ever. You die, you are born again, where you are born again depends on your karma. So being born into these heavenly realms doesn't guarantee you'd be happy forever. Basically they are like rich kids with awesome genes living in a perpetual party who could choose to live life making decisions based on their personalities. And i repeat again they are imperfect being who have negative and positive emotions just like us.

    According to buddha if you accumulate good karma you could be born into these worlds; therefore he kept insisting everyone to keep doing good deeds, make self sacrifises and avoid being an asshole. However it doesn't mean you'd be permanently happy if you are born into these worlds since you have emotions both positive and negative just like humans, you can get bored and these planets though much happier than ours have their own drama.

    However you DON'T HAVE TO believe in the existence of these beings because:

    - You have never seem them and according to a particular sutra (kalama sutta) buddha adviced people not to believe in anything if there is a lack of evidence
    - They can't decide you fate (your karma is based on your actions and intentions alone)
    - They are NOT WORTHY of being worshipped according to Buddha
    - And it is possible Buddha made up the existence of these worlds to temp people to do more and more good deeds/good karma and make self sacrifises. Not everyone had the ability to understand the path to nirvana therefore he might have said these to encourage people to live good lives until the day arrived them to undertamd the path. I personally don't think Buddha lied and believe these worlds exist. Infact i do a lot of good deeds hoping to be born into one of these worlds .

    More
    I am now an atheist and I put my faith in the scientific method as a tool to solve mankind's problems. I still believe Jesus may have been a historical figure, but I don't believe he was god. If anything, he was similar to Buddha since he encouraged good deeds. However, he had a bit of a temper to him, claimed he was an avatar of the one true god, and said he was here to fulfill the law, not end it. The law was a number of old testament rules which require stoning of sorcerers and homosexuals and blasphemers, ect. I tend to see radical Christians like Fred Phelps as the most faithful to the book, and more moderate Christians like Mother Teresa as being inspired more by modern humanist ideas. The religion also makes some people not send their children to the doctor and to deny the findings brought to us by the scientific method and modern scientific empiricism. I also find the idea of an all-powerful personal deity troubling, especially one who can erase the consequences of your actions if you pray to him enough. I'm fine with Buddhism having some overlap with Christianity, but after being surrounded by dogmatic Christians all my life, I try to distance myself from Christianity. Buddhism seems sufficiently different for me to pursue it, but I've already been hurt by religion once, and I'm wary of getting hurt again.

    I am mainly probing because I am surrounded by
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan
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  4. #524
    The Dark Lord Array The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    Regarding christianity i should add -

    Believing in christ shouldn't prevent you from pracricing buddhism. Yes there are contradictions such as the concepts of anitta, ducca, anatma. These are the three main realizations of buddhism which you would have when you practice vipassana for long enough/what you'd realize when you attain nirvana/enlightenment.

    Anitta - impermamnence. Nothing is permamnent, life death happiness sadness and an everlasting god, heaven etc.
    Ducca - disatisfaction. You are bound to be disatisfied sooner later even if you have everything you want. For example going to paradise and being with the prophets, jesus, angels amd god will also eventually bring you disatisfaction.
    Anatma - no soul. We are no soul. We are a mere combination of 5 things (5 aggregates i think in english).

    If you have still have faith in jesus it is okay to continue to pray to him or share with him your thoughts and feelings if it relieves stress or if you believe you'll have better luck/miracles. It shouldnt prevent you from practicing vipassana/zen.

    What i am saying here sounds much like hindu concept of pantheism. They believe that everything and everyone is an extension of brahma/god. So when one person/hindu is praying to Ganesha and a christian is praying to jesus or a viking is praying to Odin although these three gods are different individuals/gods they are all the extentions of brahma, therefore they are eventually praying to the same person. This is why hindus are quite tolerant of other religions (except for islam due to the history between islam and hinduism).

    You should clarify the above with senza.
    Nobody seems to like Islam.

    One of my bosses at my current pharmacy is a Muslim, but I've found Islam just an even more dogmatic version of Christianity (which I didn't know was possible).
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  5. #525
    The Dark Lord Array The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    I've yet to find anything objectionable about Buddhism despite having analyzed it from various angles. That is impressive. Even the times Buddhists have killed people seem to have done so because of nationalism or secular reasons. Meditation seems to put me at peace, as well. I still wish we had a more diverse community where I live. Aside from a couple of young people here and there finding eastern religion on the internet and my one meditation group, it seems like everybody is a conservative christian, here. I would find it much easier examining these sutras with company and to be able to bounce my thoughts off of them.
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  6. #526
    Senior Member Array riva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Wailing Specter View Post
    I've yet to find anything objectionable about Buddhism despite having analyzed it from various angles. That is impressive. Even the times Buddhists have killed people seem to have done so because of nationalism or secular reasons. Meditation seems to put me at peace, as well. I still wish we had a more diverse community where I live. Aside from a couple of young people here and there finding eastern religion on the internet and my one meditation group, it seems like everybody is a conservative christian, here. I would find it much easier examining these sutras with company and to be able to bounce my thoughts off of them.
    I live in a buddhist majority country. Even i don't have that many people to discuss buddhist meditation techniques with. There are however millions of people here who knows about the history of buddha and buddhism which is useless unless you meditate if not vipassana/zen, atleast samadhi for a few minutes per day. Most of their knowledge on buddhism is limited to this - life is suffering and tanha/cravings cause suffering. They do not know how to eradicage suffering. And like i have said earlier, dukkha means disatisfaction not suffering. Buddhism is about eradication of disatosfaction and arivng at a permanent place of bliss. But most of my country folk don't even know that little. So you are NOT missing out on anything. Just associate with a couple of folk who are keen on the subject cus that will be the best deal you'll get atleast in this century .

    Also there is nothing in buddhism (and jainism), not a single verse that encourages, allows, justifies harming others including non-believers who insult biddhism. This is what i tell people who accuse all religions to be violent and to those who point out the wars faught in buddhist countries to claim that buddhism is also violent (like christopher hitchens).

    I simply say quote me a single verse by buddha that allows, justifies, encourages violence and i'll stop practicing buddhism today.

    Religions should be a method to deal with tangible and mental issues without using violence as an option. Most religions fail at this.
    .
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  7. #527
    Senior Member Array Rico's Avatar
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    Wink

    It's been a long time since I've been here and I've been wading deep in feelery bullshit, but getting through it all by re-engaging my Se by going on walks, learning a new language, writing about Ricky, watching Quantico and sleeping my life away xD I see we have been having a discussion about meditation and Bhuddism and stuff. I've never been one to meditate but listening to music and watching TV has always helped me free my mind. As well as going outside and doing some exercize (which has been hard considering the crappy weather here). I'm not overly religious either. But that doesn't mean I don't have depth and understanding in other areas of experitise. XD For me, meditation is keeping life simple. Clutter-free and just basic. Reflecting on the important things and processing them in manner that makes sense. I still respect people and their religions and how it helps them unwind and understand the universe around them, but that route isn't for me. I tried it all before. And not going there. I have my understanding and "beliefs" and you have yours. Live and let live.

    Hope you're all keeping well.

    (Also, I am sure I am ESTP over ESFP in MBTI now but am too lazy to change it.)

  8. #528
    The Dark Lord Array The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    I live in a buddhist majority country. Even i don't have that many people to discuss buddhist meditation techniques with. There are however millions of people here who knows about the history of buddha and buddhism which is useless unless you meditate if not vipassana/zen, atleast samadhi for a few minutes per day. Most of their knowledge on buddhism is limited to this - life is suffering and tanha/cravings cause suffering. They do not know how to eradicage suffering. And like i have said earlier, dukkha means disatisfaction not suffering. Buddhism is about eradication of disatosfaction and arivng at a permanent place of bliss. But most of my country folk don't even know that little. So you are NOT missing out on anything. Just associate with a couple of folk who are keen on the subject cus that will be the best deal you'll get atleast in this century .

    Also there is nothing in buddhism (and jainism), not a single verse that encourages, allows, justifies harming others including non-believers who insult biddhism. This is what i tell people who accuse all religions to be violent and to those who point out the wars faught in buddhist countries to claim that buddhism is also violent (like christopher hitchens).

    I simply say quote me a single verse by buddha that allows, justifies, encourages violence and i'll stop practicing buddhism today.

    Religions should be a method to deal with tangible and mental issues without using violence as an option. Most religions fail at this.
    That is pretty much what I've observed. Most practicing Buddhists seem rational and well adjusted.
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  9. #529
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    According to my meditation teacher, I'm doing everything right for a beginner. I'm curious what deep meditation is like, however.

    I'm also debating spending $99 for unlimited yoga lessons through 08/31/16. I'll be in class most days, so I'm afraid I might waste the $99 if I spend it.
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  10. #530
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    Vipassana/Zen really helps as a short term method for finding peace.

    So far, I like:
    Theravada Buddhism
    Zen Buddhism
    Epicureanism
    Unitarian Universalism
    Secular Humanism

    So far, I dislike:
    Abrahamic Religions, especially the fundamentalist branches of those religions.

    Where I live, fundamentalist christian is the default worldview I see my peers holding to. I find that philosophy limiting and dangerous. The only Abrahamic religions I even see as not dangerous are the very liberal wings of the religions, though I still find their philosophical backing weak.



    I've become more aware since meditating and seeing what a calm mind is like that my mind usually runs like a motor, analyzing everything and anything in a pedantic, formalized manner. This endless analysis is likely the cause of my mindlessness and poor attention to detail in daily life, as my focus generally lies on maintaining inner order in my thought processes. I rather doubt that planning and analyzing everything is conducive to actually doing well in life.




    (It is my general experience that people usually appreciate me less than they say they do. For example, every pharmacy I go to work at starts cutting my hours down to the point I need to go to other pharmacies to get more hours. While I think teaching may be marginally easier for me than pharmacy, I don't particularly care for the idea and view it as just a job that may focus less on time management and precision. The idea that really appeals to me is going and living off the grid and being able to be my own judge. I don't know anything about living off the grid, and would probably die out there, but I know that if I went out there to and survived for a long time, I could find contentment and focus on finding happiness, which is all I really want. If I had friends, I would bring them out there with me, but as I am a bit of a loner, I suppose I could find happiness on my own as I often do while meditating. )

    At any rate:

    aid1345034-900px-Keep-from-Excessively-Daydreaming-Step-18.jpg
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

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