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  1. #21
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Default Feeling Gratitude for pinkgraffiti

    @pinkgraffiti

    God I don't even know how many years ago...like 7 years ago? Some friends and I went to this funky local pub...that to our surprise was having a karaoke night. None of us had ever done this kind of thing before or since...and...of course...I was the only one of my friends that decided to do it that night.

    Here's what I sang:



    Can I hear an Oh Hells Yes!!!?
    This is for you pink.
    لا تستطيع كسر المكسور

  2. #22
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    I was going to write about something here that has helped me as it pertains to e7 and yet I came to a big 'WTF?' road-block that I need unblocking first. And I'm calling in an outsider to help... although if anyone can answer...I would appreciate any answers/perspectives.

    @Zarathustra Below is A&E's list of the 100 Most Influential People of the Millennium. <-But this is just one of many I've looked at...and I now thinking I'm might be assigning more *influence* to a certain historical figure than I should be. What is your opinion of this list? Is there anyone that you feel should be mentioned but isn't?
    [no one should underestimate how confused I am right now that this figure is no where to be found on any of these lists and I almost said "one of the most influential people in history..." I was just looking at these lists to get a rough idea of where this figure falls in the top twenty! only to find this person appears to fall no where. I'm kinda stunned and questioning my understanding of the postmodern world right now]



    A&E's Biography: 100 Most Influential People of the Millennium

    --Musicians on the list are marked by an asterisk[*]--

    1 Johann Gutenberg (mass media--movable type for printing)
    2 Isaac Newton (gravity)
    3 Martin Luther (Protestant Reformation)
    4 Charles Darwin (evolutionist writer)
    5 William Shakespeare (Renaissance playwright)
    6 Christopher Columbus (explorer)
    7 Karl Marx (19th c. political writer)
    8 Albert Einstein (physicist)
    9 Nicolaus Copernicus (astromony)
    10 Galileo Galilei (astromony)
    11 Leonardo da Vinci (for science)
    12 Sigmund Freud (psychoanalysis)
    13 Louis Pasteur (bacteria)
    14 Thomas Edison (inventor)
    15 Thomas Jefferson (3rd US president, Declaration of Independence)
    16 Adolf Hitler (Nazi leader during WWII)
    17 M. Gandhi (led peaceful revolution in modern India)
    18 John Locke (17th c. philosopher)
    19 Michaelangelo (Renaissance artist/sculptor)
    20 Adam Smith (18th c. Scottish philosopher and economist)
    21 George Washington (1st US president, General of Revolutionary War)
    22 Ghengis Khan (12th c Mongul conqueror)
    23 Abraham Lincoln (16th US president)
    24 St. Thomas Acquinas (Catholic philosopher)
    25 James Watt (Scottish inventor; steam engine)
    *26 W A Mozart (great Classic composer)
    27 Napoleon (French general, president and self-proclaimed emperor)
    *28 JS Bach (great Baroque composer)
    29 H. Ford (mass production of automobile)
    *30 Beethoven (great late Classic/early Romantic composer)
    31 WatsonCrick (DNA)
    32 Descartes (philosopher)
    33 ML King Jr (US civil rights leader)
    34 Rousseau (great philosopher of French "Enlightenment")
    35 N. Lenin (Russian political lewader/writer)
    36 A Fleming (pen)
    37 Voltaire (great philosopher of French "Enlightenment")
    38 Francis Bacon (deductive reasoning)
    39 Dante Alighieri (Medieval writer)
    40 Wright Bros. (first human flight)
    41 Bill Gates (computer software giant)
    42 Mendel (genetics)
    43 Mao Tsedung (1st Chairman of Chinese Communist party)
    44 A G Bell (telephone)
    45 William the Conquerer (11th c. leader of Normans and English)
    46 Machiavelli (political philospher)
    47 Charles Babbage (17th c. early "computer" pioneer)
    48 Mary Wollstonecraft (women's rights)
    49 Gorbachev (1st Soviet premier to establish good relations with US)
    50 Margaret Sanger (crusader for birth control legislation)
    51 Edward Jenner (vaccination)
    52 Churchill (Prime Minister of Britain during WWII)
    53 Marie Curie (radioactivity)
    54 Marco Polo (explorer)
    55 F. Magellan (explorer)
    56 E. Stanton (womens rights)
    *57 Elvis Presley (first major icon of Rock and Roll)
    58 Joan of Arc (French religious martyr)
    59 I. Kant (philosopher)
    60 FD Roosevelt (longest serving US President)
    61 M. Faraday (chemist/physicist; electricity & magnetism)
    62 Walt Disney (early animation)
    63 Jane Austen (writer)
    64 Pablo Picasso (painter)
    65 Werner Heisenberg (physicist; "uncertainty principle")
    66 D W Griffith (film)
    67 Vlad Zworkin (TV/RCA)
    68 Ben Franklin (inventor, writer, statesman)
    69 William Harvey (blood circulation)
    70 Pope Gregory VII (separated church & state)
    71 Harriet Tubman (underground railroad)
    72 Simon Bolivar (great South American general and freedom fighter)
    73 Princess Diana (human rights)
    74 Enrico Fermi (nuclear physicist; quantum theory)
    75 Pincus (birth control pill)
    *76 The Beatles (most influential band in rock history)
    77 Thomas Hobbes (17th c. philosopher)
    78 Queen Isabella I (supporter of Columbus' voyages)
    79 Joseph Stalin (ruthless Russian leader during WWII)
    80 Elizabeth I (Queen of England in late Renaissance)
    81 Nelson Mandela (imprisoned leader against Apartheid)
    82 Niels Bohr (atom)
    83 Peter the Great (Russian Czar)
    84 Marconi (radio)
    85 Ronald Reagan (40th US President)
    86 James Joyce (author)
    87 Carson (environment)
    88 Oppenheimer (atomic bomb)
    89 Susan B. Anthony (US women's suffrage)
    90 Daguerre (photo)
    91 Spielberg (film)
    92 Florence Nightingale (medicine)
    93 Eleanor Roosevelt (United Nations and human rights)
    94 Patient Zero (1st AIDS victim)
    95 Chaplan (film)
    *96 Caruso (famous singer and early recording star)
    97 Salk (polio vaccine)
    *98 Louis Armstrong (great jazz trumpeter and scat singer)
    99 Vasco de Gama (explorer)
    100 Suleyman I (greatest Sultan of the Ottoman Empire)
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  3. #23
    ¤ Zarathustra's Avatar
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    The ESFP, way back in the day, was going to have a painting made for me.

    Kind of a modern-day Warhol.

    Black background, single color for the face.

    It was going to contain four faces (each of a different color): Jesus, Nietzsche, Lincoln, and Martin Luther King.

    Obviously, to have Descartes, Hobbes, Locke, Rosseau, Kant, and Marx, and leave out anyone after Marx, is, well, the editor's choice.

    I think it's kind of ridiculous, and I think many intelligent people would agree with that.

    The thing about Nietzsche is that he's still a controversial figure.

    Only one of the two branches of modern philosophy really embraces him.

    The other basically hates him, and everything he stood for and inspired, because they're a bunch of douchey INTPs.

    You don't get your own wikipedia page specifically on your influence, filled with tons of influential people that you influenced (more than I've seen for anybody else [few others even come close]), without being hugely influential.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influ...rich_Nietzsche

    That being said, I thought it odd/interesting that MLK also wasn't on there.

    And, hey, no Carl Jung, either.

    Perhaps they'll be high on the list for the next millennium.

    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
    Debator

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  4. #24
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The ESFP, way back in the day, was going to have a painting made for me.

    Kind of a modern-day Warhol.

    Black background, single color for the face.

    It was going to contain four faces (each of a different color): Jesus, Nietzsche, Lincoln, and Martin Luther King.

    Obviously, to have Descartes, Hobbes, Locke, Rosseau, Kant, and Marx, and leave out anyone after Marx, is, well, the editor's choice.

    I think it's kind of ridiculous, and I think many intelligent people would agree with that.

    The thing about Nietzsche is that he's still a controversial figure.

    Only one of the two branches of modern philosophy really embraces him.

    The other basically hates him, and everything he stood for and inspired, because they're a bunch of douchey INTPs.

    You don't get your own wikipedia page on your influence, filled with tons of influential people that you influenced, without being hugely influential.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influ...rich_Nietzsche

    That being said, I thought it odd/interesting that MLK also wasn't on there.

    And, hey, no Carl Jung, either.

    Perhaps they'll be high on the list for the next millennium.


    OMG I'm sane. That's basically what you're saying right...? Not just sane...you're probably now thinking something like... 'wow, Starry isn't just sane...she's also like way smarter than those people that create those 100 lists.'

    I have speculated that some e7s avoid their own issues...but flipping out over non-issues...thereby redirecting frustration, anger, anxiety etc. into something safe. <-100% I was not doing that here. This was a very serious issue in my mind and in spite of the fact I should have left my home like 20 minutes ago to be somewhere very soon... I was like 'come-on Zara, come-on...'

    Because I didn't know there were wiki influence pages... I tore through...I don't even know how many top 100 lists this afternoon. I was like...what am I misunderstanding? I will admit to having a slightly higher than what other people would probably have if in this same situation level of anxiety over this. Every where I turn I see his influence...so much so I thought it was a given. I thought he automatically made every influencial list...possibly by mandate.

    Anyway, thank you so much. I feel relieved. And I was going to say...'no, MLK is there...he's at number 3.' Whoops.
    Additionally, you must get that painting/print created within the week...and send a photo to this ESFP.

    **omg see, in my anxious state I made a mean comment about one of our former presidents that I will now take out.
    لا تستطيع كسر المكسور

  5. #25
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    @Zarathustra

    In my confusion last night I missed a few things...


    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    The thing about Nietzsche is that he's still a controversial figure.

    First, I had intended to tell you when I first read this yesterday evening... that I want you to expand on this for me at some point in the future. Again, I merely used the A&E list because it was the easiest to cut-&-paste but I had reviewed many of the same from a variety of sources and he was noticeably missing from all of them. I imagine I could reasonably guess as to why he's considered so controversial but would prefer to hear your take on it all (nothing extensive - just a few words on the topic.)

    I'd also be interested in what makes him more controversial than some of the other controversial figures that made it onto multiple lists... ? My guess is he's controversial and easier to hide/deny than someone more directly influencial like Adolf Hilter, etc. Still, I'd prefer to hear your thoughts on the manner


    That being said, I thought it odd/interesting that MLK also wasn't on there.

    Likewise, I'd like to insert a small section from the A&E list in order to show you something else I missed...


    30 Beethoven (great late Classic/early Romantic composer)
    31 Douchey INTPs
    32 Descartes (philosopher)
    33 ML King Jr (US civil rights leader) <---------------------
    34 Rousseau (great philosopher of French "Enlightenment")
    35 Starry
    36 A Fleming (pen)



    I think the fact the author in this case failed to include his title of 'Dr.' coupled with the fact his name appears between two French dudes ss-y names made his more difficult for the eye to catch. He's there though.


    And lastly, would you give me your quick opinion on 748 or 749 as I am going to respond to pinkgraffiti' s post and could use it for that. Thank you for this hard work you're doing for this haha
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  6. #26
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I'm not quite sure what came over me yesterday but every time I attempted to continue on with what I had started in this thread... a great deal of emotion would sweep over me and my eyes would fill tears. Happy, emo tears... but still tears that caused a couple people to look at me funny at Starbucks haha
    Such moments are indeed rare, and thus such tremendous treasures.

    Not a single one of us asked to be born, we all have made the best sense of the world possible with the mixed bag of genes/environment/fate that is our early lives, and on we go with limited forethought of what it all means – or what we wish our unique part in it to be.

    So off we go making the best things happen as often as we can. Patterns emerge. Let’s make a go of it, let’s make that good stuff happen again! How good it felt to spin that illusion, and how hard it was to recognize that the only constant in all things is change. How desperate when we woke up and realized that no matter how things went, the only thing we had control of during any of it was ourselves, our own actions, words, feelings, beliefs, and thoughts.

    And then when we figured out how to cry, and that it was part of the journey, and that it was Ok – we gained an understanding of our feelings and began to realize that uncovering their meaning was the first glimpse we ever really had to understand our very own being.

    To those who revel in living life’s journey for the sake of living it well, the tears don’t begin until we realize that being at peace when life stands still, is just as important as mastering all the steps of the journey.

    Here's a great blurb about 7s I've always liked...

    Quote Originally Posted by Enneagram Institute
    THE ENTHUSIAST
    Enneagram Type 7
    The Busy, Variety-Seeking type:
    Spontaneous, Versatile, Acquisitive, and Scattered
    Busy? Since birth!
    Variety seeking? Totally! I never do the same workout twice.
    Spontaneous? So much that I take medication for it - ZING!!!!
    Versatile? Like MacGuyver!
    Acquisitive? Only to the degree we wish to do neat stuff.
    Scattered? Our curiousity, energy and zeal for living predisposes us to be into everything, as often as possible.

    So, for the sake of framing the basic elements of e7s for readers of this thread - I offer the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I just shared with another e7 member earlier today that I had arrived here (to this forum) a mess. My life having crumbled to the ground for so many reasons that were truly beyond my control... but for reasons that were made substantially worse by way of 'e7 unawareness.' I was out of touch with my thoughts and feelings. I was unknowingly ignoring all problems and potential problems. Basically, I was perpetually riding the *wave of optimism*... waiting for my 'happily ever after' to arrive.
    Oh dear God was I a complete train wreck when my (30+ year) wave of optimism crashed upon the shores of reality. I realized that an overwhelming majority of my debaucles were clearly my own doing. I also realized that unless I came to terms with how I felt about life, why I felt that way, and what it all meant (to me) that my chances of doing better in the future were as random as before. And there it is. There is the real challenge. Before you can truly master the journey, you must first master yourself. So sit the fuck down and figure it out, right?!

    It’s hard to focus on problems when you are in many ways a being of perpetual motion. If not a perpetual motion machine, a freight train – barreling down the tracks of life. The more cargo you carry, and the faster you travel, the harder it is to slow down – or STOP when you want to, or need to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ^^And it's not like I've lived the kind of simple, peaceful life I imagine one would need to live in order to have the luxury of such immaturity and immature thought. To the contrary I've had many hardships in my time...I've had many opportunities to adjust my thinking and exist in the collective reality.
    My dear friend, Jack, once said to me “Alex, we all have our own crosses to bear in this life. Every human being wonders why other people suffer over whatever it is that ails them. Everybody grows at their own rate, at different times, and for different reasons.”

    I don’t think there is a “formula” that can nicely slice & dice a given person’s life variables that predicts the moment in time they “should” become self-aware. If anything it’s a “series of trips” through our own circuitry, through our own experiences that begins the process of understanding our own mechanics, intentions, compulsions, wants, and needs – and those of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    It's just that I'm stubborn... I have a bit of the *fight* in me... And there was just no way in hell I was giving-up on *the dream.*
    Sounds a little bit familiar…

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I was a good-hearted, loving person...and from what I understood... automatically entitled to Life becoming what I wanted it to be...and not the other way around - of course not. It would never have occurred to me that I become the best of what Life wanted me to be.
    This is a huge conundrum for 7s. We know that control is an illusion, yet we are awfully damn good at surfing through the many illusions that exist within life. We know that there is no voodoo to cast, yet we are damn good at making the best of the voodoo we’re surrounded by, and so it drives us batshit crazy when things don’t add up! How can this be? (Apples + 749)/blue = <*sound of birds chirping*> - DUHHH!!! Everyone knows that, right?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    And I was starting to get a little anxious frankly...a little pissed-off here and there. Life sure seemed to be taking a super long time becoming perfect. And all the while I'm being subjected to all kinds bullshit and horrors... (<-referring here to what we all see every night in the evening news.)
    Waiting for life to become perfect is not a good plan.
    Working your ass off to build a perfect life seems like a better plan, but can wind up being equally fruitless.
    Being grateful for all the moments you have to build your perfect life is a great plan.
    Developing meaningful friendships is an amazing plan.
    Doing all you can each day to be the best person you can be, to make the most with what you have to work with, and to be present in the lives of those you love, and those who love you – THAT is a plan that never gets old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    So I would wonder, who missed how sensitive I am to pain and suffering and put me into this waiting room huh? Who dropped the ball on this? Who's responsible for this fuck-up? Who's to blame? I totally know myself and there's no way I'd sign up for this gig. So, something's wrong - there's been some mix-up. There must be some kind of written record of this. This sure the hell better not be some sort of bait & switch racket as I know my rights... Right?
    Just as we didn’t have a choice to be born, we sure as hell were not issued a field manual telling us what we needed to know. The pages of life’s field manual are at best scratch off lottery tickets; you only get to read the wisdom under each experience that rubs the glitter off the pages. “What” to do is quite a big mystery, “How” to do any of it is a book of many chapters, and “Why” the hell should we do anything – is something we have to face at some point, right? Oh wait, we also need to know how we feel about all this? And that our actions have a huge impact on the lives and feelings of others? And that the pain and suffering we so cleverly ignored for so long would one day have the power to sneak up on us and rip our hearts out and wrench our guts as we gazed in horror at our own ignorance – that was brutal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Still, these were merely momentary doubts pushed-out as fast as they crept-in. For the most part I was quite happy...enjoying people and life...ignoring problems...all because I could...holding a one-way-ticket to Neverland and all. Then Life decided to show me who was really in charge. <-Now, not every e7 makes it this far. To the final destination point for The Entranced e7. For some it is their Life circumstance that never takes them that far and so they continue to walk the old path.
    I agree.
    Most people accept accountability for their lives at some point between their birth and their death.
    Some people do so when quite young.
    Some choose to do so right near the middle.
    And some wait as long as they possibly can – but they still must give in eventually.
    It’s not “if” – it’s “when” it will occur, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Other e7s may simply be more mindful and allowing in general and are capable of adapting and incorporating healthy aspects of e5 into their lives over time. And then there is a breed of e7 that appears to like their lessons hard. That possess a very bad combination of devotion, idealism and pig-headedness.
    I think these paths are temporary.
    At least I hope they are; for they don’t go anywhere nice or good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    These are the warriors. The e7s that are bold enough to...in spite of no promises having ever been made to them...proclaim that a Life that doesn't align perfectly with their righteous-vision of what should be clearly has no meaning. <-Balls-y these ones. And omfg...when they finally concede to Life? I'll just sum it up by saying 'expect tantrums.'
    Um yeah, it gets loud and very unpleasant for awhile… or so I’ve read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I feel sometimes I've walked thousands of miles in the name of e5 integration...for what in reality could be likened to a few steps to the otherside of a small room. And I don't know if this is just me or not. The ideal for me would be to save others the journey...but perhaps it is the case that everyone must walk thousands of miles in order to come full-circle... And then head out on the new path.
    Absolutely. Live, love and learn!
    I’ve benefitted immensely from learning about other people’s experiences.
    That type of info is more interesting than any book, to me at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    “Finish each day and be done with it. You have done what you could. Some blunders and absurdities no doubt crept in; forget them as soon as you can. Tomorrow is a new day. You shall begin it serenely and with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.”

    ― Ralph Waldo Emerson


    ************************************************** *****************
    A friend of mine gave me a greeting card with the above quote on it during a time I was really trying to figure out what the hell e5 integration was all about. And because of this… in spite of the fact when I read that quote I know with every ounce of who I am – that it is Truth… there was a part of me that was actually uncomfortable holding this card in my hand.
    That’s an amazing quote, by an amazing man.
    Good stuff!

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Reading about the e5…(as well as encountering a handful of members at the time that could seemingly speak endlessly on the topic of what makes an e7 an automatic total bastard haha)… my response to it was an anxious one. Like ‘Finish each day and be done with it’…? Are you sure? Isn’t that what turns people into assholes? Seriously. I think we’re all supposed to ‘Finish each day and subsequently analyze the hell out of it for several weeks thereafter…’ <-That’s what healthy people do right?
    Only if someone seeks to do bad things each day, and begins again without remorse are they assholes, IMHO. If you have a balanced perspective on life, if you do the best you can with what you have to work with, then sleep well and begin again in peace. That’s kind of the super-reductionist version I guess!

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Have you ever noticed there really isn’t anything out there of substance on the topic of integration? Like no one knows what to do…there are no guides. So the only thing I could come up with on my own was to read the works of famous/historical e5s…alongside every single e5 description I could get my hands on. And I now believe I have uncovered the ancient trick of the enneagram so listen closely…
    You are right; I’ve read over integration in the context of the Enneagram numerous times (via the occasional tidbit as such in my daily “EnneaThought” e-mail) but honestly never really pondered on it. To me the concept of a person oscillating between “unhealthy” and “healthy” extremes intuitively made more sense, as that example is quite linear. However, the concept of a 7 “integrating” (healthfully developing) into 5 is a bit harder of a concept to grasp. And on the flip side “disintegrating” (operating under stress) into 1 is equally obtuse at first.

    Here’s my ad-hoc study of this:

    (The below is paraphrased from: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/intro.asp#directions )

    Quote Originally Posted by Enneagram Institute
    The inner lines of the Enneagram connect the types in a sequence that denotes what each type will do under different conditions. There are two lines connected to each type, and they connect with two other types. One line connects with a type that represents how a person of the first type behaves when they are moving toward health and growth. This is called the Direction of Integration or Growth. The other line goes to another type that represents how the person is likely to act out if they are under increased stress and pressure—when they feel they are not in control of the situation. This second line is called the Direction of Stress or Disintegration. In other words, different situations will evoke different kinds of responses from your personality. You will respond or adapt in different directions, as indicated by the lines of the Enneagram from your basic type.
    And so for Sevens…



    Quote Originally Posted by Enneagram Institute
    …The Direction of Stress or Disintegration means that an average to unhealthy Seven under stress will eventually behave like an average to unhealthy One;
    The Direction of Integration or Growth means an integrating Seven goes to Five.
    And now I’m compelled to summarize 1, 7, and 5…
    I apologize for doing my homework here, but if I don’t do it now – well, ummm…

    FROM: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ty...p#.Ul0riYvD_IU

    Type Seven in Brief
    Basic Fear: Of being deprived and in pain
    Basic Desire: To be satisfied and content—to have their needs fulfilled

    Sevens are extroverted, optimistic, versatile, and spontaneous. Playful, high-spirited, and practical, they can also misapply their many talents, becoming over- extended, scattered, and undisciplined. They constantly seek new and exciting experiences, but can become distracted and exhausted by staying on the go. They typically have problems with impatience and impulsiveness. At their Best: they focus their talents on worthwhile goals, becoming appreciative, joyous, and satisfied.

    FROM: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ty...p#.Ul0zqovD_IU

    Type One in Brief
    Basic Fear: Of being corrupt/evil, defective
    Basic Desire: To be good, to have integrity, to be balanced

    Ones are conscientious and ethical, with a strong sense of right and wrong. They are teachers, crusaders, and advocates for change: always striving to improve things, but afraid of making a mistake. Well-organized, orderly, and fastidious, they try to maintain high standards, but can slip into being critical and perfectionistic. They typically have problems with resentment and impatience. At their Best: wise, discerning, realistic, and noble. Can be morally heroic.

    FROM: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ty...p#.Ul0z84vD_IU

    Type Five in Brief
    Basic Fear: Being useless, helpless, or incapable
    Basic Desire: To be capable and competent

    Fives are alert, insightful, and curious. They are able to concentrate and focus on developing complex ideas and skills. Independent, innovative, and inventive, they can also become preoccupied with their thoughts and imaginary constructs. They become detached, yet high-strung and intense. They typically have problems with eccentricity, nihilism, and isolation. At their Best: visionary pioneers, often ahead of their time, and able to see the world in an entirely new way.

    CONCLUSION:
    Yeah, I really think there is something to the concepts of integration and disintegration.
    At my best I am content as I revel in the present, and also direct some of my energy toward creating awesome future possibilities, like badass e5s.
    At my worst I am horrendously impatient, and perfectionistic to the point of my gears almost locking up, like unhealthy e1s.

    I think there’s value in knowing the extremes one is pre-disposed to arrive at, for better or for worse. Such awareness serves as the beginning of the signaling mechanisms needed to give early warning of a course gone afoul, and adjust one’s course to minimize potential damage and return to the glory that is equilibrium.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I now believe that the creators of the enneagram may have matched each type up in such a way that anyone seeking out the profound wisdom inherent in their point of integration would read and fairly soon thereafter say…”You know I’m just going to go rogue on this…I just can’t…I’m gonna try and work-it-out with what I already have here and turn it into something healthy all on its own…so yah thanks though...that was...yah thanks.”
    Well stated!
    Arrrghhh!!! I did that SO many times (and didn’t even know it)!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    ^This is precisely how I felt about e5 intergration. Halla was my example of the best of everything possible in the e7...which lead me to believe I could at least give it a try. That I wouldn't have to become what I was not in order to be healthy…but rather I could work with what I have. Just this time try working with my eyes open (minus rose colored glasses as well unless intoxicated. okay I'm joking haha.) This has been a great gift.
    You are so kind!
    I’m humbled; I’m speechless actually. Thank you very much.

    One of the hardest things I’ve done in the last few years is to accept “my nature.”
    I’ve always “loved myself” – but “accepting one’s nature” is different than having a healthy concept of self-love; without self-love you’re not likely to keep yourself in good order, to eat well, to exercise, to keep your mind sharp and engaged. But even still – it’s possible to have a well-developed sense of self, without ever having accepted yourself. I was there for a while – a long while…

    Over the course of life we all receive feedback, about all kinds of things we do (our work, our behavior, our actions, our words, our writing, our facial expressions, everything!).
    We’re told that some of the things we do are good, and some are bad.
    Some of use are even told that the way we are (think, feel, act, move) necessitates being categorized as having a behavioral health disorder, in my case ADHD.

    - Being diagnosed with ADHD never bothered me.

    - Reading/hearing/learning what the negatively perceived characteristics of ADHD didn’t bother me either.

    - Being slapped upside the head time and time again when very real events in my life went completely bad as I had never anticipated possible, especially when such things were hurtful to people dear to me – THAT – is what tore me down and rocked me to the core one day.

    That’s the moment in time I realized that over time I had (unwittingly) built a very sophisticated house of cards. Did I want to live in that house for the rest of my life? Hell no. So I owned my errors, I owned my predispositions, and held them dear. By recognizing them I disarmed them, so long as I remained cognizant as such – and I have.

    So, I torched my house of cards, and began rebuilding – but this time I’m going to build a castle.

    Don’t fret over what you can’t change.
    Instead, change your perspective and create opportunities from obstacles.
    Is the glass of water half empty, or half full? Only you can decide that.
    To those who have propagated negative views toward the behaviors of people with ADHD, I wish that one day the literature will focus as much on ADHD’s positive aspects (things like being creative, being able to think in abstract terms, having enormous amounts of energy, and being in a good mood most of the time) and serve to guide people who have it in constructive ways.


    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I feel like I’m standing in the warmth of the brightest sun. And kinda like I was just knighted as well. In my pajamas.

    Booyah!
    I’m glad to know you, Starry!
    Pajamas! The official uniform of the E7 Army!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    In my mind it's a simple math formula. How long can an individual go on living an intrepid lifestyle of all beginnings and no ends...AND all the while simultaneously never addressing their issues in a meaningful way? Well, you factor into the formula things like physical health, enablers, affluence, etc. and you should be able to get a rough estimate as to when the e7s life will collapse in on itself. It's just kinda a shame that everything about the e7 will prevent the e7 from knowing what hit them.
    ^That is the straight dope!!!
    WOW!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    As for who I was/am 'before and after'... I mean, I got to where it seemed kinda pointless to try and talk to people seeing I no longer knew how to answer casual questions...seeing I no longer really knew who I was. And I said countless times to people here and people I met irl that I 'wish they knew me before...' But that fog is lifting... and since I'm typing directly above Halla's post right now and can see his use of 'the Phoenix rising from the ashes' <-I'm having that butterfly-shivers feeling... thinking EXACTLY!
    Isn’t it nice to realize after time has passed and your efforts directed inward that you are exactly the same person as you’ve always been? That feeling makes up for a lot of the pain that it takes to get to the tipping point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    As this dust settles and dissipates I can better recognize that I'm still here...just transformed, stronger, wiser, my 'line-of-sight' has figuratively increased.
    Hell yeah you are!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    And I've developed the ability to stop time...and draw fake mustaches and glasses on people with lipstick and markers and then start time again. <-That is just so not true that last one.
    That’s hysterical!

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Ataraxia (ἀταραξία "tranquility") is a Greek term used by Pyrrho and Epicurus for a lucid state of robust tranquility, characterized by ongoing freedom from distress and worry.
    Sounds pretty amazing to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    For the Epicureans, ataraxia was synonymous with the only true happiness possible for a person. It signifies the state of robust tranquility that derives from eschewing faith in an afterlife, not fearing the gods because they are distant and unconcerned with us, avoiding politics and vexatious people, surrounding oneself with trustworthy and affectionate friends and, most importantly, being an affectionate, virtuous person, worthy of trust.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ataraxia
    To those who live a life of love, each second of the eternal here and now is the best moment ever.

    Carpe Diem!



    Respect, gratitude, and best wishes,

    -Halla74
    Last edited by Halla74; 10-16-2013 at 12:14 PM.
    --------------------
    Type Stats:
    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

    Quotes:
    "If somebody asks your MBTI type on a first date, run". -Donna Cecilia
    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro
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  7. #27
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinkgraffiti View Post
    THIS. so much this.
    Yep.



    you mean what i did after my *life*realisation*thing* blah blah?
    ...mmm, baby steps? i think i just have a silent belief that in the end the universe is a balanced system with karma rules etc and eventually things sort themselves out. i'm just doing my life, following my passions etc and i'll see where the road takes me. after you have a *trauma* (to which you reply with anxiety, confusion, identity crisis, etc) and step by step notice/feel that life is followed by a pretty peaceful sequence, with no other comparable traumas, step by step you adjust your anxiety levels to fit that.
    Umm..I'm just gonna go ahead and say that what you describe above...that sounds hmmm...perhaps a hundred-thousand times more gracefully navigated than anything coming out of me when under what I believe to have been a similar set of circumstances.

    I'm not sure how clear it was in my earlier post but...my experience wasn't anything like "I've been shaken to the core and now I'm just going to take baby steps from here on out until I get my bearings, etc." <--I mean, unless toddler feet kicking and stomping during a tantrum falls under the banner of 'baby steps' but I get the sense these are two different phenomenons.

    ^^When I say this though I should include that I'm not trying to deny my experience and the appropriate...as well as warranted feelings I had surrounding it. I don't notice any of this in what you are describing...but what I eventually recognized in myself...and what I have seen in other e7s here as well as irl...is how a sense of entitlement (a entitlement to an all-good life) interfered with my ability to...take baby steps. I was at first appalled...and then needed to be infuriated for a really long time... at having discovered Life was not Disneyland. <-And that's just time well spent is what I say. haha...actually I think for me it will prove to be. I feel excited at the prospect that I now have it in me to do e7 right from here on out and hope to see that happen.


    actually this weekend something funny happened that made me question my notions of myself again. my INFP-4w3-pristinly attuned Fi-girlfriend was telling me how i spend too much time trying to convince myself that i'm perfect and have no faults/insecurities/weak spots. she was saying i should own up that, contrary to what i like to believe and say about myself, i'm not naturally monogamous at all. and that it's ok, i should just accept that about myself. and also that, contrary to what i like to believe about myself, i can be a liar and i can be manipulative, i'm not a perfectly innocent honest human being. this kinda shocked me at first, because i was convinced that i was in sync with myself and my issues. but she was right. and it makes me think that maybe i'm not so different after all from who i was aged 20 or whatever: that even after a traumatic situation etc, i still revert to my comfortable 7ness cloud of "this isn't happening" "there are no negative things here" "aren't i such a lovely person?" (whose reverse side-coin, which i appreciate, is "this is so cool and shiny" "i want to try living in a foreign country" "i want to change my job" "i want to learn a new language" "i want to meet different people" etc etc).
    So amazing what you just packed in that quote above. I said this to Lady X and Halla yesterday and another friend the day before that when I started this thread...

    There are a couple of e7s on the site that are struggling...and because they are struggling they are, of course, doubting they are e7s. <-Ironically, I knew if I were to address that...if I were to say 'Oh no, e7s have rainy days too...check out this hurricane" there would be 7s that wouldn't participate because that's how deep this goes. That's how strong this compulsion is to avoid the negative. But it's not until you can look the negative in the eye...

    It's one thing to only see the good in Life...to only acknowledge the good things and stay positive and forward-moving. But the way I see it today is you don't become a True e7 until you can look at the whole of Life...lucid, awake, alive...and turn that into something which contains profound meaning. To stay positive and forward-moving when nothing is denied...when you no longer need to look away or dull your senses. This process appears to begin when we can admit to all our flaws and faults. And I'm not talking about "Oh look at me I'm so quirky! (and therefore kinda cool and fun)" No, I'm talking about when we can say..."look at this shit." And then we take the faults...and uncover all the beauty and gifts hidden within. That's e7 wisdom.

    I'm learning so much from you.


    edit: i just realised you were talking about integration to a 5. i have no fucking clue. i'm still not out of it so much that i can gain a sense of perspective on whether i learned anything from it and grew into a better person or not. but i'd love to investigate more on what my integration to 5 should be like. what else do you know about it?

    ^^I keep throwing out the phrase 'e5 integration' and then in a different post I may have appeared to discredit the process idk. What I should say here is...I can totally see how taking on healthy qualities of e5 would be precisely what is needed (for some) to turn an entranced e7 into a wise e7. Part of what I kinda wanted to convey in this thread though is while enneagram theory seems to suggest a 'one-size-fits-all' integration pathway for everyone under the same type...I no longer believe this is appropriate.

    One of the reasons I was asking you if you thought you had a counterphobic wing is due to the fact that having one would mean you already have some strong connections to e5... What I am trying to say is that e7s that are already connected to e5...focusing on e5 as a pathway to health is not going to be the best thing to do in my mind. Too bad I didn't get that right away haha! I am eventually going to share the one thing I took away from e5 (which...I know this is going to sound so confusing but I believe this work comes from an e5 that was making a positive connection to e7 at the time of all things haha... which in an even more confusing way proves the point I'm trying to make in the first place...) but for me the pathway to health has been about claiming e7. Letting go of anything having to do with e5 and trying to figure out how I can do e7 right. A return to e7 *angel music and zen chimes*

    i'm not really sure how to distinguish counterphobic 6 from 8. also, i'm not sure if the 8 i feel in me is my assumed 8 wing, or my assumed 8 gut fix (or both). if i rethink about my childhood/teenage years etc i dont see a lot of anxiety issues, moreso i had pretty strong principles that i defended with rage if i had to....so it makes me think that a cp6 is not natural in me, but possibly a circumstantial thing of the last few years (post-"trauma")..but since this last weekend i've realised that i'm unaware of many things about myself, it's something i'm not sure about and am open to discuss
    For what it is we're discussing...I'm not sure how to distinguish a cp-wing from 8 (wing, fix) either. This is a total stab in the dark but I get a sense from individuals that have some serious e8 going on that the anger is like a pilot light that keeps them warm. omg ha no...not that 'keeps them warm' part. But there's the dull whisp and hum of a pilot light always going in the background. So the potential is always there for a fire to break-out. <-If you have that feeling I would attribute that to a strong 8 fix.

    If you feel pretty decently positive most of the time, have a good deal of energy and courage to take risks <-that to me would be an 8-wing.

    If you are going about your business (no pilot light)...enjoying your thoughts...thinking about how beautiful a flower is...or a smile, etc. and then you notice a massive human rights violation that no one else can see especially Si>Fe or Fe>Si...and so you spontaneously combust <-then I would be starting to think...hmmm do I have a cp6 wing?
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  8. #28
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    it should be noted that i have a very strong urge to delete that...still unsure if i've ever experienced what you're discussing here.

    help orient me starry and i'll refine that.
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  9. #29
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    it should be noted that i have a very strong urge to delete that...still unsure if i've ever experienced what you're discussing here.

    help orient me starry and i'll refine that.
    I'm here. I was reading Halla's post... and for that I was thinking..."I'm now going to have to delve into the ultimate vault of inspirational music...like Let it Be or Amazing Grace or Imagine..."

    Let me take a look at what's going on here to see what your talking about and I'll be right back.
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  10. #30
    Not Sexy. Not ENFP. Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    it should be noted that i have a very strong urge to delete that...still unsure if i've ever experienced what you're discussing here.

    help orient me starry and i'll refine that.
    I don't know if you are still online or not...so I will post a short message and then eta.

    I think what you wrote was lovely...and will feel fine with whatever you choose to do with it.
    I also see you as an e7 that is very much awake.


    added to @Lady X

    *long confusing analogy to follow

    I was irritated in 1995 when Samuel L. Jackson did not win the academy award for best supporting actor for Pulp Fiction. But it went deeper than just that... and so to vent my frustration I did what every young weird person does in those moments and wrote a school paper on it.

    Most American literature is based on a structure that has its roots in Puritan Conversion narratives. And you still see this kind of thing in churches all over the country today. What do they call it...something like 'giving testament?' Basically, a member of church stands in front of the congregation and talks about how they were transformed by Jesus. So they first go through all the stories from their life when they were figuratively blind (yet not knowing they were blind)...hitting a crossroad of some sort where Jesus enters their life and they accept him and are subsequently saved...and then they talk about all the wonderful things that are going on for them now that they are 'down with Jesus.'

    ^^Americans love this kind of thing...and it is very much in our history to love it. [The argument of my paper was this: Pulp Fiction was based on the Puritan Conversion narrative. The way you identify the main character in a Puritan Conversion narrative...is they will be the character that actually goes through a conversion. Samuel L. Jackson was the main character in Pulp Fiction...and should have been nominated as such. And yet John Travolta...a supporting character won Best Actor. I suspect racism. No one really digged my paper at the time though but I'm still very proud of it.]

    For many reasons...the fears of an e7 tends to shape their lives in a way that seems to cause it to unfold like a Puritan Conversion narrative. That does not mean it will automatically happen this way.

    Your life is not unfolding this way and so you don't fully relate and that's totally cool...it appears you had a sense of awareness from early on and have walked a more gradual path which I envy.

    Part of the reason I created this thread was to issue a bit of a warning to those e7s like me that were so in denial I guess (and not that anyone would have noticed this in me btw)...that they were grounded by the crossroad (life explosion.) Again, you are on a more gradual path is what I think...which I wish I was.
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