[Type 4] E4 feelings of insignificance

[Azure Flame]

So I had an interesting conversation with an ENFJ 4 the other day.

I was listening to some type o negative "Love you to death," seen here:

The song is incredibly depressing and tragic. These emotions are something my ex used to feel almost constantly (ISFP).

When I hung around her, it felt like I was lowered down to her level. The song is conveying a certain kind of emotion, and I was trying to figure out what it was that was being felt, and from what I gather, its expressing feelings of insignificance. (The E4 fear is of being insignificant).

With that being said, this brings up a lot of questions about E4's in my mind. When I visualize something in my mind to this song, I imagine an extremely empty world filled with ghosts, with a lot of green. Almost like a lost eden, some kind of lost paradise that is also completely devoid of other people. Its very surreal. Very melancholy. I think the emotion I experience is one of "vast insignificance." With regards to my ex, she clung to me whenever I was about to leave her. I had this feeling as if, if I left her, it was the equivalent of leaving her in the middle of the ocean with no one to talk to. "DON'T LEAVE ME!" I felt very sorry for her and there was nothing I could do about it. When I was around her, I felt her emotions, and it was as if the two of us were the only humans on the planet, as if that's how she viewed me. Its as though, if we got married, and she passed away before me, I would have been the only person she ever cared about.

I don't know if these feelings are romantic... or unhealthy.

With that being said, as an 8, I have quite a lot of "significance," perhaps too much. So much so, that I often complain a lot of people seem to want to latch onto me and steal my energy like leeches. Anytime I feel these melancholy emotions in an E4, I don't speak to them anymore. Its become a huge red flag to me. I don't know if this should be the case or not.

Is this behavior healthy? Are there any examples of fictional characters or celebrities who are healthy E4's? Ideas?

I have a sort of love/hate relationship with E4's for this reason. Maybe I'm just exhausted from dating so many damn ISFP 4's.

 

[Amargith]

Living there aint healthy - even for an enneagram 4. But those emotions are part of what we explore, at least ime. Our type is marked by the willingness to seek out and understand *every* shade of emotion, including the eerily dark ones. But to set up shop there means that something is wrong. As it does affect us the way it affects others -aka depression and suicidal thougths if things aren't addressed, though granted, it can take years to get to that stage. She sounds like she had abandonment issues, and self-worth issues which aint uncommon for an enneagram 4 still trying to figure life out.

You get to a point where you live in a fantasy world in order to escape, cope with or transform reality. But in doing so, you become a stranger to reality and at some point, that fantasy crashes, it can't be continued. The alienation, isolation and pain you were trying to avoid in the first place, or trying to transform through that fantasy into something deep, dark and romantic does get you in the end.

I'd wager you were a safe haven of sorts. Perhaps not a shelter from the pain, but someone to prove her wrong in her insignificance time and again, and I hate to say it - someone to test, to see if, when he finally saw her insignificance, if she just exposed it a little more, he too would abandon her (which is a self fulfilling prophesy unfortunately, its her way of refusing to believe someone could care enough about her broken self to stay, so you test them by driving them away) and someone who she could vicariously live through as he addressed reality (8s tend to rock that, which is one of the reasons we're often drawn to you folks as well ), which was part of the fantasy - to master that yourself. I don't doubt you were like oxygen to her though, and that she cared deeply for you. But you are right, this isn't something you couldve fixed. That, unfortunately, is up to her

In short, no, it aint a healthy place to be in - though it is a common thing to go through on your way to finding your groove in this life for a 4, I'd wager. I did, at least.

 

[Tiltyred]

It's very dark yin energy and it's pleasurable/painful to experience, and hard to manage, because it can be so narcotic. It's a sort of power, if you know how to wield it, but it takes a lot of self-discipline on the woman's part. I would imagine ISFP E4 to be like wisteria -- a cascade of gorgeous tiny purple flowers with the sweetest scent you can imagine -- that will completely invade and destroy anything it's allowed to latch onto, over time.
http://www.sent-trib.com/farm/wisteria-vine-beautiful-yet-destructive
Used constructively, it would make you feel stronger, more empowered, more virile, more alive. Used destructively, it drains your power.

The reason you keep getting drawn into it is precisely because of your 8-ness -- it makes for a strong polarity.

What I suspect is really going on here is not so much psychological as biomechanical -- your girlfriends have what's called in Human Design an "open spleen."
See John Martin, Human Design teacher, here, on Open Spleen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUL_I9eUE8k
People with an open spleen tend to feel weak or not feel well most of the time, and being around a person who has a strong spleen makes them feel better. John Martin mentions elsewhere that people sometimes just feel compelled to stand next to him -- his spleen is lit up like a Christmas tree -- just being near him makes them feel better. I know this is true because I have an open spleen and when I learned about this and went back and did the charts of any man I'd been addicted to, he had a strong spleen center.

I don't know where to tell you to go with that (except you might want to study Human Design, because it's more detailed and sophisticated than MBTI for explaining dynamics of interaction), but I think that's what's going on.

 

[Azure Flame]

It's very dark yin energy and it's pleasurable/painful to experience, and hard to manage, because it can be so narcotic. It's a sort of power, if you know how to wield it, but it takes a lot of self-discipline on the woman's part. I would imagine ISFP E4 to be like wisteria -- a cascade of gorgeous tiny purple flowers with the sweetest scent you can imagine -- that will completely invade and destroy anything it's allowed to latch onto, over time.
http://www.sent-trib.com/farm/wisteria-vine-beautiful-yet-destructive
Used constructively, it would make you feel stronger, more empowered, more virile, more alive. Used destructively, it drains your power.

The reason you keep getting drawn into it is precisely because of your 8-ness -- it makes for a strong polarity.

What I suspect is really going on here is not so much psychological as biomechanical -- your girlfriends have what's called in Human Design an "open spleen."
See John Martin, Human Design teacher, here, on Open Spleen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUL_I9eUE8k
People with an open spleen tend to feel weak or not feel well most of the time, and being around a person who has a strong spleen makes them feel better. John Martin mentions elsewhere that people sometimes just feel compelled to stand next to him -- his spleen is lit up like a Christmas tree -- just being near him makes them feel better. I know this is true because I have an open spleen and when I learned about this and went back and did the charts of any man I'd been addicted to, he had a strong spleen center.

I don't know where to tell you to go with that (except you might want to study Human Design, because it's more detailed and sophisticated than MBTI for explaining dynamics of interaction), but I think that's what's going on.

Open spleen huh?

A lot of these girls do like to stand really close to me. It makes me feel very protective and heroic in a way. I like it when they do that.

 

[Azure Flame]

[MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] [MENTION=5723]Tiltyred[/MENTION]
Any examples of a healthy E4 other than yourselves?

Someone I can stalk on youtube and observe.

 

[Azure Flame]

random aside:
[MENTION=5723]Tiltyred[/MENTION]

that's an interesting system he has. Kinda hippy, but I like it. But I had trouble identifying with any of them in particular. I think I identified with the Open root the most. My first impression of the system was that he read enneagram and just rephrased everything.

 

[Tiltyred]

DJ, go here to get your free chart.
https://www.humandesignamerica.com/chart

You'll see for yourself whether your spleen area, the triangle on the left, is colored in and/or has branches coming out of it. If so, your spleen is activated, and it attracts people with no spleen activations, makes them feel protected and makes them feel more strong and well.

 

[Tiltyred]

Here's me on the left, and my boyfriend (now ex) of many years on the right. I made a yellow mark where the Spleen center is. See how mine is clear? See how his is colored in, and lit up like a Christmas tree?



(Btw, one of the gates I have from the spleen goes straight to the gate he has to his heart. And my solid ego center reinforces his open ego center; his closed root reinforces my open root, etc. etc., there are lots of ways people can connect, but spleen seems to create dependencies.)

 

[Azure Flame]

Here's me on the left, and my boyfriend (now ex) of many years on the right. I made a yellow mark where the Spleen center is. See how mine is clear? See how his is colored in, and lit up like a Christmas tree?

View attachment 10002

(Btw, one of the gates I have from the spleen goes straight to the gate he has to his heart. And my solid ego center reinforces his open ego center; his closed root reinforces my open root, etc. etc., there are lots of ways people can connect, but spleen seems to create dependencies.)

ok, what does this mean:

You are a Generator. You only have energy to do things that you like to do. In a job you don't like, you may be too tired to function, but if you go and do something you love with friends, you may have all the energy in the world. For you, the problem is finding the activities that bring out your passion. With a healthy connection to your passions, you will naturally have all the energy and dedication you need to succeed. Within your unique chart configuration, there are dilemmas that can get in the way of your success. The following is an example of this.

You have an Undefined Throat Center. The Throat represents communication and expression. As an open Throat, your expression and communication can be inconsistent. In healthy interactions, you can find fulfilling expression. You have lots of energy and potential, but when you lack the interactions and connections you need, you can tend to obsessively attract attention to yourself in an attempt to express your energy.

When you make commitments that are not compatible with your energy, you can become stuck and your energy can become drained.

 

[Ginkgo]

I think when I'm on the fence about the significance of my feelings, ideas, and experiences, I can come off like a counter-phobic 6 because I'm trying to tackle those feelings by proving them in some way that isn't strictly internal. Just as much energy is sometimes used to prove the insignificance of something. Regardless of the final outcome of my condition, my feet tend to be planted in a "glass is half empty" position. Even when I'm acting proactively upon eustress, I tend to see the flaws in the world around me first and foremost. At best, I can appreciate these flaws without any negative emotions trailing behind, and it's during those moments when I feel most fulfilled because I find self-evident significance in being a "fixer" on a mission. It goes beyond ideas of "rescuing" people, of being "rescued", and lets me occupy a sense of duty that totally bypasses self-doubt, self-pity, and emotional dependency on anyone or anything. That said, I strongly identify as an E1 during these periods, and my love for these phases has even led me to assume that pretty much everyone loves the concept of their integration point. However, I've recently had this notion disproven to me.

 

[Tiltyred]

ok, what does this mean:

For purposes of this discussion, it means you have a defined Spleen center, just as I suspected. I suspect the girls you're talking about have undefined Spleens, and that's why you're seeing what you're seeing in the relationships. You would have to do their charts to be able to see it.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I think when I'm on the fence about the significance of my feelings, ideas, and experiences, I can come off like a counter-phobic 6 because I'm trying to tackle those feelings by proving them in some way that isn't strictly internal.

I think I can relate to this. It's like a counter-shame of trying to prove you are important. It tends to look elitist & arrogant. In asserting your own significance you can dismiss that of others.

-----

When I feel insignificant, instead of trying to latch onto someone else's perceived significance (which, er, sounds 9ish to me), I tend to resent or reject their significance. It may stir envy, basically, but consciously I experience it as a disdain of sorts, or a rejection of whatever seems to make them significant to others. Often, I may end up making that person feel less significant, and they can resent me for it also. Or if I am nice to them or show interest in them, then they may feel a sense of condescension from me; but it may seem needy, as if "I'm only talking to you right now because I need human contact that badly, not because I really like you". If this is true on any level, then I also feel shame, which probably just exacerbates everything.

However, if someone I deem significant shows an interest in me or a liking or care for me, then I may get a sense of being in their class. But now it's like we're an elite class. We "get" each other. If I see that person is just that way with everyone, then I may feel less special and not deem them as significant anymore, out of bitterness I guess. I'll suddenly write them off as mundane & chastise myself for wasting emotional energy on them, and I may feel angry that someone who is so mundane did not appreciate me.

When I truly face my own feeling of insignificance, then I just get depressed, I withdraw, and I convince myself no one will notice I am gone. I may have a sadness about me that is passively seeking to draw out concern in others, so they come to me & validate that I am worth caring about.

So the clingy neediness & withdrawals are obviously not healthy. Instead of using signals from others to gauge my significance (distorted by my emotions) or my inner ideals (impossibly high), it's better if I act in a principled way on what I believe to have significance.

I guess when I am integrating, I feel I have the significance any human does & the power to bring something meaningful into the world, but not in a prideful 2ish way (which looks like elitism or neediness in a 4). It's almost like my own significance doesn't really matter so much, because it's some self-evident thing & now I am focusing on how to use it to do something meaningful & not whether or not I possess it. That's really what transcending the ego is all about, IMO - it's not finding a solution, it's realizing there is not the problem you thought there was to begin with. The fixation is NOT reality.

In short, a healthy 4 is doing stuff they find meaningful (this is not to be confused with self-indulgence or obsequiousness towards others), not just lamenting their lack of meaning, the world's lack of meaning, etc. So I think instead of feeling like they've clung to you to bring meaning into their life, you would feel they are creating meaning with you.

 

[Azure Flame]

I think I can relate to this. It's like a counter-shame of trying to prove you are important. It tends to look elitist & arrogant. In asserting your own significance you can dismiss that of others.

-----

When I feel insignificant, instead of trying to latch onto someone else's perceived significance (which, er, sounds 9ish to me), I tend to resent or reject their significance. It may stir envy, basically, but consciously I experience it as a disdain of sorts, or a rejection of whatever seems to make them significant to others. Often, I may end up making that person feel less significant, and they can resent me for it also. Or if I am nice to them or show interest in them, then they may feel a sense of condescension from me; but it may seem needy, as if "I'm only talking to you right now because I need human contact that badly, not because I really like you". If this is true on any level, then I also feel shame, which probably just exacerbates everything.

However, if someone I deem significant shows an interest in me or a liking or care for me, then I may get a sense of being in their class. But now it's like we're an elite class. We "get" each other. If I see that person is just that way with everyone, then I may feel less special and not deem them as significant anymore, out of bitterness I guess. I'll suddenly write them off as mundane & chastise myself for wasting emotional energy on them, and I may feel angry that someone who is so mundane did not appreciate me.

When I truly face my own feeling of insignificance, then I just get depressed, I withdraw, and I convince myself no one will notice I am gone. I may have a sadness about me that is passively seeking to draw out concern in others, so they come to me & validate that I am worth caring about.

So the clingy neediness & withdrawals are obviously not healthy. Instead of using signals from others to gauge my significance (distorted by my emotions) or my inner ideals (impossibly high), it's better if I act in a principled way on what I believe to have significance.

I guess when I am integrating, I feel I have the significance any human does & the power to bring something meaningful into the world, but not in a prideful 2ish way (which looks like elitism or neediness in a 4). It's almost like my own significance doesn't really matter so much, because it's some self-evident thing & now I am focusing on how to use it to do something meaningful & not whether or not I possess it. That's really what transcending the ego is all about, IMO - it's not finding a solution, it's realizing there is not the problem you thought there was to begin with. The fixation is NOT reality.

In short, a healthy 4 is doing stuff they find meaningful (this is not to be confused with self-indulgence or obsequiousness towards others), not just lamenting their lack of meaning, the world's lack of meaning, etc. So I think instead of feeling like they've clung to you to bring meaning into their life, you would feel they are creating meaning with you.

Your definition of meaning is a little hard for me to understand. Does this equate to "creating a bond?"

 

[OrangeAppled]

^ Well, that may be part of it, but it cannot be a fix in the sense that filling some void for romance becomes the answer for the 4. Because e4s tend to focus on what is missing in their life, envy those who have it, and make it the THING that would finally bring them sublime happiness & fulfillment. Then they get it, and like a child with a new toy, tire of it & start crying again.

So in a healthy bond, yes, they are bringing something to YOU, which is not just emotional highs or whatever. The relationship is not a distraction from other voids either. To me, the relationship becomes almost like it's own entity, it creates meaning also. Because you're both giving to it, then it's able to give back to you, and you have this positive cycle that's self-sustaining.

You see this with couples where their relationship brings meaning to other people also because the combined force of the two is more powerful than their individual force. There's an overflow almost, instead of just voids demanding fulfillment. In short, it's productive outside of just you two. I'm thinking of relationship commitment phases, and the pinnacle is the "creation" phase.

If someone is just sucking energy or needing a crutch or you are just playing hero or getting high off of someone else's drama, then it's stunted. The relationship will shrivel up or blow up. It can't sustain itself.

 

[Chiharu]

I experience periods of intense emotional turmoil. For me, maturation has not involved ridding myself of these periods, but accepting them, understanding the cause of them, and finding new emotional routes to move past them. I can't how any E4 without strong Fi functions. I think the OP's ex has the potential for growth- but only out of a relationship. You have to dive into the pit of self and see what's there.