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  1. #31
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I disagree. I think it's legitimate to enjoy the process itself of creating an appearance & style for its own sake. I've worked out of the home & gone days & weeks without seeing anyone & I still felt better when I got dressed & groomed. Other times I'd find an excuse to go out for a reason to get dressed, not to interact with people. That is not to say I never give a thought to impressions or use appearance as communication (I noted that above), but it's not necessarily the main or sole drive for all people giving attention to their appearance.

    As a child, I liked to play dress up, not to impress anyone, but because it was fun to me. As an adult, it's similar, and sometimes I may be creating a character as much as "expressing myself". I think people who don't do that just have trouble grasping it. They always want to attach "social" to it because that's their own motive or experience of it.

    If you were a hermit & isolated, would you stop creating anything?
    That is important to hear that way of approaching it, and that could well be the case for the OP.

    I live somewhat hermit like except I do come into town for work. To be completely isolated socially would have psychological remifications I can project to know, but it could also be quite different than one could imagine. I choose to create at great cost in my life as a strongly introverted person, but still within a required social context.

    Edit: I can't get this question out of my mind because even though I have a self identity of autonomy especially in creative endeavors to a large extent, but have more recently been learning how human identity is multileveled, and Western culture tends to deny that in favor of the individual. Here's a question, do feral children create, and how does that compare to socialized children?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I know this is directed at the OP, but I have & have had many unstylish, unattractive friends my whole life. I hung out with some awkward nerdy types or tomboys in school, and they had to overcome prejudice of ME for having an interest in fashion & aesthetics.

    So there is another misconception here; that stylish people are stuck-up and judge people according to their own tastes. Yet, I increasingly find that people who are stylish & interested in aesthetics are judging the unstylish far less than the unstylish are judging them for being supposedly shallow, snobby, or vain.
    I do not have an assumption that stylish people are snobby by default Some are. Some are not. I get that there are many reasons to create through clothing. It can help for a person to ask if they reject in others what they reject in themselves. I have tended to accept more in others than in myself, and when the irrational nature of that is brought to my mind it has greatly helped balance a sense of self.

    My assumptions about the OP contained several possibilities including that he might already accept more flaws in others, and by seeing that it would be easier to balance the scale and be more accepting of self as another equally valuable human being.

    It's what helps me with performance anxiety in music. I always ask myself what I would think of someone else messing up, and when I realize I would still respect them, I realize it is possible to respect myself and be at peace even in the face of failure. I do have colleagues who are intolerant of mistakes of others in performance, and I don't think badly of them because of it. They are technically classical music snobs, but are only that way because of being judged all the time, or for another non peaceful reason, so I'm not interested in adding insult to injury and judging them yet again. It make more logical sense to me to just help people feel more peace about themselves and others regardless of the baggage they start with.

    So assuming anything about the OP motives seems irrelevant to me. Accepting others, accepting self, having peace. That is what I care about regardless of motives or starting points, or the process by which it needs to be achieved.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #32
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is not about empathy or respect. You may empathize with others & respect them easily & direct that at yourself, but still find yourself dull or uninteresting or even not likable. I notice the kind of esteem issues image types deal with are not ones of respect or empathy, but a kind of less principled love. They want the kind of love (in the broad sense) that comes not from being human, but from being their specific individual self (an issue the 4 is most aware of but skews what their true self is). What you have is someone who may generously have a principled respect & empathy towards others & themselves, but not particularly feel likable. Because really, respect & empathy do not equal "likable". There's something more about taste & dynamic there than an inherent human worth. Image types tend to seek special attachment from others, not basic human respect.

    An example of this for myself is I've always balked at being loved/liked mainly for a role filled - things like "daughter", "sister", "wife", "student", "employee", etc. Even being a "good person". The wholeness of yourself is not represented in any of these. It may seem as if "love" is directed at the role, or given out of that principled obligation, not something stirred in response to your individual self outside of any role.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "principled respect & love", but I don't understand how someone can find themselves "dull or uninteresting or even not likable" whilst also still directing empathy and respect at themselves. Unless "dull or uninteresting or even unlikeable" is perceived as acceptable, but generally "dull or uninteresting or even unlikeable" infer negative characteristics which might make someone unworthy of others' attention (and therefore, unworthy of their respect or empathy).

    eta: okay actually, I can see there existing a very conditional 'empathy and respect'- but that's kind of the point. Cultivating a less conditional empathy and respect will ultimately bring about less of a need to feel attractive to others in order to feel acceptable.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  3. #33
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by "principled respect & love", but I don't understand how someone can find themselves "dull or uninteresting or even not likable" whilst also still directing empathy and respect at themselves. Unless "dull or uninteresting or even unlikeable" is perceived as acceptable, but generally "dull or uninteresting or even unlikeable" infer negative characteristics which might make someone unworthy of others' attention (and therefore, unworthy of their respect or empathy).

    eta: okay actually, I can see there existing a very conditional 'empathy and respect'- but that's kind of the point. Cultivating a less conditional empathy and respect will ultimately bring about less of a need to feel attractive to others in order to feel acceptable.
    So you've never had respect & empathy for someone but did not particularly like them?
    I'm not saying you disliked them, but you were not drawn to them personally & were not moved to form a close bond with them?
    I mean, do you automatically REALLY like someone simply because they deserve your unconditional respect & empathy?
    Are not some people more "beautiful" to you, despite not being worth more as a human in the most basic sense?

    I'm talking about a response that has nothing to do with morality, but taste. The sort of aesthetic equivalent of human interaction & response to each other, but in regard to personality not physicality. This is the difference between an active attraction & a passive or default respect/empathy.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  4. #34
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    The way I look does matter to me. I wear pretty nice clothes and am reasonably well groomed. It's important to look presentable. I'm not really into nor do I know much about style. I just dress pretty conservatively - classic like. When I was younger, I always wanted to be better looking to attract girls. It's not so importnat today. I guess I'm good enough and it's not something I think about much. I still want to lose 20 more pounds however, more for my health than anything else. I think paying attention to your appearance and also your health does reflect a level of respect you have for yourself.

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  5. #35
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    So you've never had respect & empathy for someone but did not particularly like them?
    I'm not saying you disliked them, but you were not drawn to them personally & were not moved to form a close bond with them?
    I mean, do you automatically REALLY like someone simply because they deserve your unconditional respect & empathy?
    Are not some people more "beautiful" to you, despite not being worth more as a human in the most basic sense?

    I'm talking about a response that has nothing to do with morality, but taste. The sort of aesthetic equivalent of human interaction & response to each other, but in regard to personality not physicality. This is the difference between an active attraction & a passive or default respect/empathy.

    I don’t understand what this has to do with my response (I'm not saying there's no connection, I'm just saying I'm not seeing it.). The extent to which we are able to see value in “nobodies” (as the op mentioned feeling like a ‘nobody’ without “looks or a sense of style”) is the extent to which we will not be afraid of being worthless if/when we do not feel especially attractive. There’s a big difference between feeling worthless when we don’t feel attractive vs. simply not feeling especially attractive when not feeling attractive (whilst still maintaining a fundamental sense of worth).

    I can feel respect and empathy for people I’m not particularly drawn to. Liking or being drawn to some people more than others doesn’t mean I lack that fundamental sense of worth for myself. [Which is why I added the caveat: “Unless ‘dull or uninteresting or even unlikeable’ is perceived as acceptable”- but I would still find that a peculiar relationship to have with oneself. Since what’s ‘likeable’ is largely aesthetic, subjective- I don’t need my own interests to be of interest to every I know, nor need for them to have the same interests as me to feel my interests are valid….but it seems peculiar to think of one’s own interests as not interesting or ‘dull’ and yet be able to find oneself still worthwhile and acceptable on a fundamental level? I might be able to openly acknowledge that many people might find my interests dull and still feel acceptable- but to find them dull myself, seems, I dunno. Now you've confused me. I need chocolate.]
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  6. #36
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Most of the time I'm oblivious to how I look -- until much later on when I see a photo of myself then I form my judgment, but by then it's already too late

    I do have a self-image, and sometimes it doesn't exactly match up with the thing I see in the mirror, but for some reason that self-perception does not change. My inner self-image is usually quite vague, and embody things like a calm, peaceful, dark-haired girl in a white dress in a dreamy field, seen from behind and from faraway, or something like that. It usually involves more the subjective 'what I should be feeling' than the objective 'what I look like'. Now that I think about it it's quite strange. I feel like my ideal self doesn't have a clear visual element, but will consist of a narrative and will read like a book.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  7. #37
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I don’t understand what this has to do with my response (I'm not saying there's no connection, I'm just saying I'm not seeing it.). The extent to which we are able to see value in “nobodies” (as the op mentioned feeling like a ‘nobody’ without “looks or a sense of style”) is the extent to which we will not be afraid of being worthless if/when we do not feel especially attractive. There’s a big difference between feeling worthless when we don’t feel attractive vs. simply not feeling especially attractive when not feeling attractive (whilst still maintaining a fundamental sense of worth).

    I can feel respect and empathy for people I’m not particularly drawn to. Liking or being drawn to some people more than others doesn’t mean I lack that fundamental sense of worth for myself. [Which is why I added the caveat: “Unless ‘dull or uninteresting or even unlikeable’ is perceived as acceptable”- but I would still find that a peculiar relationship to have with oneself. Since what’s ‘likeable’ is largely aesthetic, subjective- I don’t need my own interests to be of interest to every I know, nor need for them to have the same interests as me to feel my interests are valid….but it seems peculiar to think of one’s own interests as not interesting or ‘dull’ and yet be able to find oneself still worthwhile and acceptable on a fundamental level? I might be able to openly acknowledge that many people might find my interests dull and still feel acceptable- but to find them dull myself, seems, I dunno. Now you've confused me. I need chocolate.]
    It's a matter of significance. The nobody thing is more about not wanting to be insignificant not about innate worth. The difference is that it's about meaning something distinct to others vs just basic human worth. That's why you may extend principled empathy and basic human value to all but they are still "nobody" to you. They have no special meaning in your life.

    I personally am not concerned with being "somebody", but have a need to feel very significant to a select few, like most people. Like many heart types, appearance can be used to attract/repel. You'll notice the op wants not just to be seen, but in a specific way. I think a basic idea about reality that heart types operate off of is that there is not enough love to go around. This sense of scarcity of love makes any path to attracting love a focus for heart types.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  8. #38
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Hmm, I've never had a solid personal definition of attractiveness. Chris Pine is my man either way.

    Attractiveness is subjective - people like what they like. Not everyone will find you attractive but not everyone will find you unattractive either. How common people find you attractive/unattractive is a different question, but as long as I can find a mate who finds me attractive and who I also find attractive I'll be a happy camper. Because, ideally, I would want to spend the rest of my life with this person. If other people find me attractive, great. If they don't, it's okay because I'd have my mate and we'd revel in our mutual attraction. I find it great for my self-confidence when people (especially guys) tell me I'm attractive, but I don't rely on it. Relying on my outer image completely is boring to me. Building on my inner image of who I am is much more satisfying. That's my view on attractiveness as an e7.

    PS: Probably not a Heart thing.
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