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  1. #21
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Your inner self and outer self are one.
    That which you wish to project is irrelevant if not genuine.
    Just as you cannot choose the object of your desires as an audience, your greatest admirer cannot choose when you are to manifest in their presence.
    Which is why it is of greatest importance for all to project themselves truly, for failure to do so leads only to the fulfillment of emptiness.
    Probably a 4 thing, but there can be an inner duality of sorts, a conflict between an idealized self & a self felt to be ugly (I mean an inner ugliness). Both are YOU; the idealized self can even be as the true you in some ways.
    This is likely why 4s may see beauty in things which are conventionally ugly, dark or tragic.
    The outer image can be an attempt to turn the inner ugliness into something beautiful, and you want that acknowledged by others (although admitting that feels yucky also). This sort of bridges the gap between the ugly & ideal inner parts of you.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #22
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Hi OrangeAppled!
    I always like your commentary, let's check this out...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Probably a 4 thing, but there can be an inner duality of sorts, a conflict between an idealized self & a self felt to be ugly (I mean an inner ugliness).
    Which "self" is projected to others?
    The idealized self?

    If so, when is the "inner ugly self" representative of the person?
    Is this different than someone not liking their shortcomings?

    Trying to understand...

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    Both are YOU; the idealized self can even be as the true you in some ways.
    Ok, but do BOTH have the capacity to command one's total being?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled
    This is likely why 4s may see beauty in things which are conventionally ugly, dark or tragic.

    The outer image can be an attempt to turn the inner ugliness into something beautiful, and you want that acknowledged by others (although admitting that feels yucky also). This sort of bridges the gap between the ugly & ideal inner parts of you.
    Is not (1) self-acceptance, (2) recognition of one's shortcomings, and (3) commiting to work on one's shortcomings a plan to bridge the gap between an "inner ugly self" and an "idealized self?"

    Cheers!



    -Halla74
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  3. #23
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    just stop looking in the mirror.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  4. #24
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Which "self" is projected to others?
    The idealized self?

    If so, when is the "inner ugly self" representative of the person?
    Is this different than someone not liking their shortcomings?
    Generally the ideal self is projected with a romanticized piece of the ugly, or at least that is how you want to be seen. It's okay if the flaws are seen as long as it's this sort of tragic beauty or enigmatic moodiness or whatever.

    It's probably not any different other than over-identifying with the shortcomings (you don't have them, they ARE you) & a more melodramatic measuring of them. The voids & flaws get blown out of proportion, and then to cope they are countered with an ideal that has to be blown out of proportion also. This is a bad cycle because you never can live up to the ideal.

    Ok, but do BOTH have the capacity to command one's total being?
    No, because you cannot fully be rid of the flaws (no human can), but obviously some aspect of the ideal is you since you created it, so you are not fully the ugly side either. Yes, self-acceptance is certainly a key.

    But it's like: if you are so very ugly & flawed, then your self-acceptance is not worth much. Hence, the desire to be deemed attractive to others as validation. You devalue your own self-love. It's a hard cycle to get out of.

    Is not (1) self-acceptance, (2) recognition of one's shortcomings, and (3) commiting to work on one's shortcomings a plan to bridge the gap between an "inner ugly self" and an "idealized self?"
    Intellectually I know this, but emotionally it takes longer to sink in.

    Not speaking for the OP but it sounds like he is coming to this point: there can be a concern that this is a shallow shortcut of sorts; that the appearance is ONLY an IMAGE of that authentic self which combines the ideal & the flawed human. That without this image, you are perhaps empty & not the fascinating character you desire to be & present to others. I realize the image is your creation, it stems from YOU, but this disconnect between the two causes a kind of contempt for yourself. There's also this neediness in it that is yucky (the desire for validation from others).

    No it doesn't "make sense". That's kind of the point.

    Thanks for your comments; you certainly make good points. I'm sure I overcomplicate it, but that's just how it's experienced by me.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #25
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    just stop looking in the mirror.
    Yes. That's what I do. And when I do look, it's just to make sure nothing is out of place that woukd draw attention to myself. I almost never admire or scrutinize myself.

  6. #26
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    *handshake kidney punch*
    Standard parting protocol.
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    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

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    "Enneagram is psychological underpinnings. Cognitive Functions are mental reasoning and perceptional processes. -Sanjuro

  7. #27
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Not speaking for the OP but it sounds like he is coming to this point: there can be a concern that this is a shallow shortcut of sorts; that the appearance is ONLY an IMAGE of that authentic self which combines the ideal & the flawed human. That without this image, you are perhaps empty & not the fascinating character you desire to be & present to others. I realize the image is your creation, it stems from YOU, but this disconnect between the two causes a kind of contempt for yourself. There's also this neediness in it that is yucky (the desire for validation from others).
    This point is familiar to me, except with a more moderate and less yucky perspective on the need for validation.

    I've erred more towards enjoying it/depending on it/consciously attracting it too much than feeling uncomfortable. At my best, I see a certain moderate range of reaching for validation as justified by function: hence makeup and resumes. There are times and places to sell myself, and I don't feel uncomfortable with that.

    But to go beyond that range is to build a house of cards. Attractiveness and "niceness" beyond the point where you could back it up with substance when needed only looks good until you inevitably have to back it up. Challenge people to back it up. Call them out when they can't. I can remember each time I have been called on it as vividly as the present because of how much of a better person they made me and how much bigger and more complex of a world they introduced me to. It hurts in the moment, but inspires later. Sometimes I wonder what other colorful human universes I have yet to open my eyes to because I haven't yet faced the shock.

    @"All I have is my looks": That statement begs the question of what the fuck that person was doing with their time when they could have been developing skill in other things.
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

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  8. #28
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stansmith View Post
    My whole identity and source of confidence is based on my looks and sense of style; if I didnt have that, I'd feel like a nobody. When I look or dress bad, I literally don't feel like myself; I am how I look. Is this a heart triad thing, or an instinctual variant thing?
    My impression is that it is social at its core. Appearance and style are social by nature because if you were a hermit and isolated it would not be relevant. You mentioned that you feel that your appearance and style are your strongest points over other skills. It is natural to want to stand out socially, to have something that places you above the masses. It can help to realize that it is okay to be "nobody".

    How do you feel about people who are unattractive and without style? If you can focus on embracing and respecting people who are "nobody", then that can help us to embrace the same within ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Actually I take that back. You won't have to face it. You could just seek another means of finding connection, like becoming a religious fanatic or getting fibromyalgia and going for people's sympathy. Or maybe you could avoid it altogether and become an alcoholic. There's more. Just saying, you don't have to face it, ever I guess.
    Not sure if this post is serious, but it struck me as ironic because both extreme religious attitudes and chronic pain typically create isolation from other people, but these can form tight bonds with small social groups of people with similar perspectives/issues. I know several people with extreme chronic pain, including fibromyalgia, and it completely isolates them from others, and it is a rare person that has any empathy. I only have a slight version of it -enough for it to be annoying, but not debilitating, so I try to extend the sympathy, but I've heard amazing incidences of social isolation and stupidity in response to these people's issues. The religious fanaticism is more likely to form small, tight social bonds, but it completely isolates people from the larger social context. I would say that thinking religiously and politically the same as whatever context you are in is the best way to form social bonds, and one of the main ways that people do -not that it is preferable to trying to learn truth. I'm not as familiar with addictions, except that it is also isolating by nature.
    @Stansmith, I would say that going to a good counselor is an important way to face any issue head-on. It is helpful because you don't have to filter anything you say. There are no social consequences, so it provides the opportunity to have complete self honesty, and develop a continually deeper self-awareness. I suspect it could be helpful for most any person.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #29
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _fia
    How do you feel about people who are unattractive and without style? If you can focus on embracing and respecting people who are "nobody", then that can help us to embrace the same within ourselves.
    Yeah, this. The more rigid conditions exist in a person's mind as to whether or not others deserve respect and compassion/empathy, the less a person will be able to feel unconditionally worth respect and compassion/empathy themselves.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  10. #30
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    My impression is that it is social at its core. Appearance and style are social by nature because if you were a hermit and isolated it would not be relevant.
    I disagree. I think it's legitimate to enjoy the process itself of creating an appearance & style for its own sake. I've worked out of the home & gone days & weeks without seeing anyone & I still felt better when I got dressed & groomed. Other times I'd find an excuse to go out for a reason to get dressed, not to interact with people. That is not to say I never give a thought to impressions or use appearance as communication (I noted that above), but it's not necessarily the main or sole drive for all people giving attention to their appearance.

    As a child, I liked to play dress up, not to impress anyone, but because it was fun to me. As an adult, it's similar, and sometimes I may be creating a character as much as "expressing myself". I think people who don't do that just have trouble grasping it. They always want to attach "social" to it because that's their own motive or experience of it.

    If you were a hermit & isolated, would you stop creating anything?

    How do you feel about people who are unattractive and without style? If you can focus on embracing and respecting people who are "nobody", then that can help us to embrace the same within ourselves.
    I know this is directed at the OP, but I have & have had many unstylish, unattractive friends my whole life. I hung out with some awkward nerdy types or tomboys in school, and they had to overcome prejudice of ME for having an interest in fashion & aesthetics.

    So there is another misconception here; that stylish people are stuck-up and judge people according to their own tastes. Yet, I increasingly find that people who are stylish & interested in aesthetics are judging the unstylish far less than the unstylish are judging them for being supposedly shallow, snobby or vain.


    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Yeah, this. The more rigid conditions exist in a person's mind as to whether or not others deserve respect and compassion/empathy, the less a person will be able to feel unconditionally worth respect and compassion/empathy themselves.
    This is not about empathy or respect. You may empathize with others & respect them easily & direct that at yourself, but still find yourself dull or uninteresting or even not likable. I notice the kind of esteem issues image types deal with are not ones of respect or empathy, but a kind of less principled love. They want the kind of love (in the broad sense) that comes not from being human, but from being their specific individual self (an issue the 4 is most aware of but skews what their true self is). What you have is someone who may generously have a principled respect & empathy towards others & themselves, but not particularly feel likable. Because really, respect & empathy do not equal "likable". There's something more about taste & dynamic there than an inherent human worth. Image types tend to seek special attachment from others, not basic human respect.

    An example of this for myself is I've always balked at being loved/liked mainly for a role filled - things like "daughter", "sister", "wife", "student", "employee", etc. Even being a "good person". The wholeness of yourself is not represented in any of these. It may seem as if "love" is directed at the role, or given out of that principled obligation, not something stirred in response to your individual self outside of any role.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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