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  1. #1
    Riva
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    Default Questions about e6s.

    (1) From what little i've read on enneagram types phobic and counterphobic are 'exclusively' mentioned in e6s and never anywhere else. So the question is does it only apply to e6s or does it apply to other types too without such intensity? 'It' seems more applicable to e6s than any other type though.

    (2) can there never be a middle ground for e6s?

    (3) I always associated phobic with 6w7s and counterphobic with 6w5s. Is this assumption correct? But i'm beginning to think i'm wrong because i've noticed a few 6w5s who are phobic and a few 6w7s who are counterphobic in rl and fiction.

    (4) does the phobic counterphobic factor change according to the circumstances? I've noticed this too. At times (and at certain people) they are surely counterphobic but at other times (especially to other people) they are extremely phobic.

    (5) something else I have noticed is that counterphobics almost always are sx doms, the so s seem phobic but tends to get CP suddenly and sp doms seem rather neutral (probably because their needs are less others oriented than the other 2types?). Are these observations correct?

    (6) in jest - e6s are ideal characters for movie villains because of their obvious anxious nature (i'm using the word anxious alone for convenience.

    (7) continuing from the previous question have I typed these characters correctly - benjamin linus (lost) so/sp 6w5 phobic or 6w7 phobic, sith lord (star wars) 6w5 counterphobic, lord shen (kung fu panda) 6w5 so/sp counterphobic?
    Last edited by Riva; 06-02-2013 at 01:33 AM.

  2. #2
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    1. I've been wondering the same thing for a while, actually. I have a hard time thinking that there aren't other "splits" that occur with other enneatypes, but I haven't really successfully applied the idea. I guess with 6 it happens because 6s orient either "towards" or "against" an object, instead of grounding themselves, and that's the fundamental problem for the type.

    2. I believe that there is and that it is probably more common than "straight" phobic or cp, though most 6s probably tend to lean one way or the other. In terms of myself, I'm working on figuring out if there's a pattern to when I act phobically and when I act counterphobically. I know that with strangers I tend to be phobic, but in close relationships I tend to be counterphobic. I'm not sure yet otherwise. I do think with 6 there's a "health" axis of amplitude of response and then a phobic-cp axis.

    So like...



    I do think it's hard for 6s to be neutral between phobia and counterphobia - that in the middle area of being assertive but not passive or aggressive.

    3. I think the general tendency is true, because w7 will tend to prioritize enjoyment, and the most efficient route to fun is via not upsetting people, while w5 will tend to prioritize knowledge, and the most efficient route to knowledge often involves cracking situations open. But there are certainly deviations from that pattern, including w7 being more outgoing and somewhat entertained by chaos, and w5 being more introverted and less interested in creating a fuss.

    4. Yeah, I believe so. Like I said, I'm trying to figure this one out on myself. I think it might have something to do with risk calculation - like determining whether it's riskier to say something or not. I feel like this happens to me at work - like today I was managing in the morning, and one of my coworkers didn't actually start his work until 30 minutes after he got in, and I was trying to decide whether to say something to him, whether to just ignore it, whether to say something to my boss, whether to say something to the manager coming in later, and so on. I don't really personally care when he starts his work, but I do care about my employer being annoyed with me for not having his work out on time while I'm supposed to be keeping an eye on everything. It bugs me a little because he tends to take inappropriately long breaks without saying anything to anyone, but he's an enneagram 3 and a pain in the ass to confront - he gets really huffy about it - but it's not really my responsibility to monitor his time, so I figure it's best to just let nature run its course and let someone higher up address it later. The situation was kind of pitting group harmony against personal security, which is a crappy choice to have to make, so I decided just to lay low and only say something later if I was asked, instead of the phobic response of running to tell my boss or the counterphobic response of confronting my coworker. He ended up drinking a lot of coffee and getting his work done quickly, so ultimately it didn't matter.

    Anyway, it was 2 decisions on that graph - one on the response/not axis, and one on the p/cp axis. But it's a little inaccurate, because technically it would be more limited if there's no response... so like...



    With the green double lines being the realistic "bounds", since less response could not be as counterphobic or phobic.

    5. Yeah, I think you're totally on the ball. Definitely sps are less impacted by social anxiety, which can make them more neutral. At work, I know one so 6w7 who is very phobic, an sp/sx 6w5 who leans counterphobic, and an sx/so 6w7 who is so counterphobic I thought she was an 8 for a while. I feel like the social instinct makes it harder to be very counterphobic, since you're painfully aware of how you're potentially burning bridges. And with sx, I think because you prioritize those close relationships, and the intensity of conflict isn't so unpleasant to you, it's easier to be counterphobic. It gets you into those exhilarating situations more when you're fighting than when you're not.

    6. I think 6s make good story characters in general because they are generally easily relatable, and because their struggles are often fairly evident from the outside.

    I don't really know any of those movie characters well so I can't comment on their types.

  3. #3
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    A lot of enneagram literature notes that many e6s individuals have both phobic & counter-phobic traits & tendencies, but externally people may appear as more one than the other. I suspect this is emphasized so much for 6s mainly because fear is a very common ego fix for people, and so it manifests in such a variety of ways & in so many different kinds of personalities that there's a need for "subtypes" to illustrate how differently it can manifest so people identify their ego fix correctly.

    Anyhow, I posted some thread somewhere around here with descriptions of the instincts & how some may manifest as "counter types"; every type has a "counter type" then, or one who appears to act against their ego fix as if they don't possess it at all.

    The main point, though, is that the ego fix can be a reaction that looks counter to the fix itself, but nonetheless, the person is driven by it or interprets their reality through it. Example: many 4s often appear counter-envious - being disdainful of some things as "mundane", perhaps. 9s can be counter-lazy - keeping busy physically & mentally & even diving deep into spiritual & emotional philosophies so as not to face unpleasant, personal truths that would upset their equilibrium. I suspect these are less individuals who are always counter-type than one way many avoid acting outside of their ego by pretending it doesn't even exist but instead the problems are outside of themselves (not their own mental hurdles). So there are many times individuals will act counter-type, and perhaps some do it enough to be viewed as a counter-type over all.
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  4. #4
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    Just as a rule of human nature, I would imagine counterphobia exists in all enneagrams with how we deal with our fears, otherwise sayings like "learn to face your fears head on" wouldn't really exist. (Unless these sayings were made by 6's).

    Animals attack humans because they notice the human is vulnerable to attack. So the animal would rather kill the human than deal with the distant possibility that the human would ever kill the animal.

    As an 8, my fear is of being harmed or controlled. The great thing is, when people get an emotional reaction out of me, its like, the biggest deal in the world. So, as a result of me being my stoic self, I have a tendency to attract a lot of fucking retards with pointy objects in their hands thrusting them at me to see the scared look on my face. Often times my reaction is hands up telling them to back off, and then if they don't, I tackle them and inflict harm onto them as revenge for threatening me. However, this has more to do with being cornered and left with no options other than to halt the offender's advance with my own offensive assault, than it has to do with a reflexive ass beating, which I've not done once in my life. Everyone I've ever attacked was attacked on the grounds of, "they need to be sent a message."

    In my experience with CP6's, it manifests most often a pre-emptive attack based on imaginary circumstances. IE: "He looked at me funny!" I also tend to have 6's punching me so they can demonstrate their lack of martial arts expertise on me without my permission.

    DERP I KNOW MARTIAL ARTS TOO, WATCH ME HIT YOU WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR GUARD DOWN AND YOU'RE ACTUALLY FRIENDS WITH ME! NOW'S MY CHANCE TO PROVE MYSELF TO MYSELF BY HITTING AN UNARMED FRIEND! fyi I really don't get along with 6's.

    @Riva... Lord Shen looks 8w7 to me, or even 3w4. Based on a quick vid of him invading the palace. All that speak of controlling destiny and world domination etc.

    edit: just watched the movie, its hard to say. His demeanor completely changes from angry sadistic to running away and being ambiguous.

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    hmm, I wonder if shen is a 3

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    (1) From what little i've read on enneagram types phobic and counterphobic are 'exclusively' mentioned in e6s and never anywhere else. So the question is does it only apply to e6s or does it apply to other types too without such intensity? 'It' seems more applicable to e6s than any other type though.
    It's more applicable to e6s because enneagram 6 is the place where one's fear is generalized.

    In all the other enneagram types, the fear is very specific.

    The only other place I've seen "counter"-something referenced is wrt e4s, as envious and counter-envious.

    There as well, like eith e6s, it's the sx's who are likely to manifest the more counter-envious mindset.

    (interestingly enough, I would say SS and I are both counter manifestations of our types)

    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    (2) can there never be a middle ground for e6s?
    Yes.

    Molina actually makes a more interesting distinction for sixes than just counterphobic and phobic.

    He says there are actually three types of 6s (something paralleled, iirc, in Naranjo's work, wrt three different manifestations of paranoid personality disorder), one with an Intrinsic focus (more phobic), one with an Extrinsic focus (more counterphobic), and one with a Systemic focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    (3) I always associated phobic with 6w7s and counterphobic with 6w5s. Is this assumption correct? But i'm beginning to think i'm wrong because i've noticed a few 6w5s who are phobic and a few 6w7s who are counterphobic in rl and fiction.
    There is a correlation, but it is not 1:1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    (4) does the phobic counterphobic factor change according to the circumstances? I've noticed this too. At times (and at certain people) they are surely counterphobic but at other times (especially to other people) they are extremely phobic.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    (5) something else I have noticed is that counterphobics almost always are sx doms, the so s seem phobic but tends to get CP suddenly and sp doms seem rather neutral (probably because their needs are less others oriented than the other 2types?). Are these observations correct?
    Sx doms definitely tend to be counterphobic.

    I'm not sure about your other two obsersations.

    I've always imagined Sp's being rather phobic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    (6) in jest - e6s are ideal characters for movie villains because of their obvious anxious nature (i'm using the word anxious alone for convenience.
    I think e6s are often protagonists and heroes in movies, actually.

    Action movies seem to be rather filled with 6 protagonists.

    (many MMA fighters also seem to be 6s.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    (7) continuing from the previous question have I typed these characters correctly - benjamin linus (lost) so/sp 6w5 phobic or 6w7 phobic, sith lord (star wars) 6w5 counterphobic, lord shen (kung fu panda) 6w5 so/sp counterphobic?
    Benjamis Linus, I'd say yes, or at least something close to that. I don't know if he's phobic, tho.

    Not sure enough about the other two figures. Haven't seen Star Wars in a long time, and never saw Kung Fu Panda 2.

  7. #7
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    (1) From what little i've read on enneagram types phobic and counterphobic are 'exclusively' mentioned in e6s and never anywhere else. So the question is does it only apply to e6s or does it apply to other types too without such intensity? 'It' seems more applicable to e6s than any other type though.

    According to everything I've read, it only applies to E6s.

    (2) can there never be a middle ground for e6s?

    Yes I think so. Also, I believe that nobody is strictly phobic or counterphobic. There is a spectrum of responses with a person tending to lean towards one extreme or the other. My natural interaction style is to confront. I guess that is counterphobic. Even with that being the case, I could be acting in a counterphobic way 75% of the time and a phobic way 25% of the time.

    (3) I always associated phobic with 6w7s and counterphobic with 6w5s. Is this assumption correct? But i'm beginning to think i'm wrong because i've noticed a few 6w5s who are phobic and a few 6w7s who are counterphobic in rl and fiction.

    It's an interesting theory. I don't know why that would be the case. 7s are more out there in the world than 5s and being counter-phobic has to do with confronting fears vs. retreat, which I would associate with being out there.

    (4) does the phobic counterphobic factor change according to the circumstances? I've noticed this too. At times (and at certain people) they are surely counterphobic but at other times (especially to other people) they are extremely phobic.

    Yes it does change as I described above. I think there are probably patterns of situations where you would tend to be one vs. the other.

    (5) something else I have noticed is that counterphobics almost always are sx doms, the so s seem phobic but tends to get CP suddenly and sp doms seem rather neutral (probably because their needs are less others oriented than the other 2types?). Are these observations correct?

    There is a direct relationship between SX and counterphobic. I don't know about the other two. Sounds interesting.

    (6) in jest - e6s are ideal characters for movie villains because of their obvious anxious nature (i'm using the word anxious alone for convenience.

    If I look at my own type (INTJ), which would be a more likely villain - An INTJ 3, 5, 6 or 8? I'm not sure 6 would be at the top of the list.

    (7) continuing from the previous question have I typed these characters correctly - benjamin linus (lost) so/sp 6w5 phobic or 6w7 phobic, sith lord (star wars) 6w5 counterphobic, lord shen (kung fu panda) 6w5 so/sp counterphobic?

    Don't really know on these but Benjamin Linus could easily be a 6.

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  8. #8
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    1. I've been wondering the same thing for a while, actually. I have a hard time thinking that there aren't other "splits" that occur with other enneatypes, but I haven't really successfully applied the idea. I guess with 6 it happens because 6s orient either "towards" or "against" an object, instead of grounding themselves, and that's the fundamental problem for the type.

    2. I believe that there is and that it is probably more common than "straight" phobic or cp, though most 6s probably tend to lean one way or the other. In terms of myself, I'm working on figuring out if there's a pattern to when I act phobically and when I act counterphobically. I know that with strangers I tend to be phobic, but in close relationships I tend to be counterphobic. I'm not sure yet otherwise. I do think with 6 there's a "health" axis of amplitude of response and then a phobic-cp axis.
    You always have such interesting things to say.

    I am the opposite of you though. With strangers I'm counterphobic and with close relationships I tend to be more phobic. I don't mean to get off subject but in your opinion, do you think that the difference between us has anything to do with instinctual varients, or just wings, MBTI or maybe all?
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riva View Post
    (1) From what little i've read on enneagram types phobic and counterphobic are 'exclusively' mentioned in e6s and never anywhere else. So the question is does it only apply to e6s or does it apply to other types too without such intensity? 'It' seems more applicable to e6s than any other type though.

    (2) can there never be a middle ground for e6s?

    (3) I always associated phobic with 6w7s and counterphobic with 6w5s. Is this assumption correct? But i'm beginning to think i'm wrong because i've noticed a few 6w5s who are phobic and a few 6w7s who are counterphobic in rl and fiction.

    (4) does the phobic counterphobic factor change according to the circumstances? I've noticed this too. At times (and at certain people) they are surely counterphobic but at other times (especially to other people) they are extremely phobic.

    (5) something else I have noticed is that counterphobics almost always are sx doms, the so s seem phobic but tends to get CP suddenly and sp doms seem rather neutral (probably because their needs are less others oriented than the other 2types?). Are these observations correct?

    (6) in jest - e6s are ideal characters for movie villains because of their obvious anxious nature (i'm using the word anxious alone for convenience.

    (7) continuing from the previous question have I typed these characters correctly - benjamin linus (lost) so/sp 6w5 phobic or 6w7 phobic, sith lord (star wars) 6w5 counterphobic, lord shen (kung fu panda) 6w5 so/sp counterphobic?
    1) yea prolly...
    2)feels like no, but I'm a judger. middle ground just doesn't happen with ease
    3)I think it can vary...Throughout my whole life I was counterphobic. I started getting into MBTI and found out I was an ENTJ....gave me even more reason to think I was a fearless SOB. 6 years later I'm on this site and saw something about Te defending Fi, same thing goes for Counterphobic for me. The counterphobic in me was just protecting the seriously phobic individual inside. So...now I'm not near as counterphobic as I used to be. And I have a wing of 5. Mostly by default. I'm not much like a 7 at all.
    4)yes definately
    5)I don't know many 6's nor am I good at typing someone on instinctual varients yet.
    6)Yes...because if they're anything like me...They may not even know themselves enough to know deep down they're a softy.
    7)Don't know any of them sorry.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  10. #10
    Riva
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    I've noticed that e6 women are terrible at flirting. I hsve noticed that in all e6 women i know. Could it be a coincidence or is it type related? I have never attempted to flirt with an e6 though.

    E6 men seem to be okay with it.

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