User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 32

  1. #1
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default Knowledge and Foresight

    I've noticed some interesting patterns regarding 6s and their desire to predict outcomes. I'd like to know more about if I'm on the right track and how 6s feel about these things, so I have some questions. I realise they may be different depending on whether you lean towards Phobic or counter-phobic. Feel free to skip the questions you don't feel like answering or don't really apply to you.

    1. Is it important to you to be able to predict how things will turn out?
    2. Do you think of potential or hypothetical futures/outcomes for yourself a great deal?
    3. Do you ever predict things in an overly optimistic way, or do you tend to always err on the side of caution?
    4. When/if you assume the worst, do you do it because you genuinely believe it will really happen, or do you intentionally lower your expectations so you won't end up disappointed/unprepared?
    5. How do you feel when things turn out better than expected? Are you just relieved, or does it bother you that you went a bit overboard?
    6. Do you often find yourself saying, "I told you so" or, "I knew that would happen" or just generally relishing being right?
    7. Does naivety or lack of foresight in others really bother you? If so, why?
    8. Do you feel compelled to get involved or speak up if someone is making bad decisions? Is it hard for you to keep your mouth shut when people are, or a situation is, 'sure to fail' (eg. at work)?
    9. How do you feel about risk? Do you enjoy it times or prefer to minimise it (or is some sort of combination of the two)?
    10. How do you react when something (small or large) negative happens that you couldn't possibly have predicted?
    11. How do you react when something (small or large) negative happens that you could/should have predicted?
    12. Do you ever find yourself caught between enjoying/remarking at something surprising/shocking, and at the same time claiming you knew it would happen all along? If so, how does that work in your head? Have you missed the contradiction, or are these positions somehow congruent in your head in ways others don't understand?
    13. Have you ever been outright tricked, conned or played by someone?
    14. Do you sometimes charge into a situation convinced that things will turn out well? If so, what gives you that confidence?
    15. What/whom do you put faith and trust in? What does it take to qualify as being so?

    Anyway, that's it for now.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte
    Likes Patrick liked this post

  2. #2
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Oh, good questions!

    1. It's important to me to feel like I'm ready for whatever might happen. I'm not as focused on the exact turnout, but rather, being prepared for the worst case possible. Essentially it boils down to never wanting to be caught off guard. Lately I've been trying to be less situationally prepared and more living a lifestyle in which I don't mind being caught off guard.

    2. All the time. ALL the time. This may be exacerbated by N dom. Mostly it's exciting possibilities for the future, when the possibilities aren't immediately possible, but basically as soon as they become tangible, I begin running worst-case scenarios. It's sort of a weird reversal of how it should work - it's like as soon as a door of opportunity is open, I start convincing myself of why the option wouldn't be good. My boyfriend (ISFJ 9w1) has really been helping me see this and work through it.

    3. I usually run many scenarios at the same time, both pipe dream and cataclysm. I try to anticipate just a little worse than what I think is likely, to optimize not wasting resources but being prepared. So I am just a little bit of a pessimist. :]

    4. I genuinely believe it may happen - my "worst cases" are geared to have decent (though small) likelihood. But there's a certain point at which you're just so thoroughly fucked it's not even worth attempting to prevent. I do like to be more prepared than necessary, but I'm generally aware that I'm overpreparing.

    5. Usually happy, but a little bothered, sometimes, if I sacrificed something that I can't get back, and sometimes little annoyed at people who were convinced the turnout would be good without much rationale, since they didn't sacrifice anything and are still reaping the benefits.

    6. I try to warn people beforehand if I have concerns, in a way that's not uppity or intrusive. But it sucks to watch a trainwreck that I figured was going to happen. I don't really get any joy out of it. :[

    7. It bothers me when people seem to deny that they carry an inherent degree of responsibility for the impact of their choices. That intentional blindness can cause great harm to others.

    8. Not very often. I have an INFJ 6 coworker who does this a lot more - I think she's a lot better at predicting what is most likely to happen, though, with her Ni, and she's very protective in her Fe way. I mostly just try to alert people when I feel like there are significantly likely possibilities that they would want to be prepared for.

    9. I don't like it, but I understand the value of it. I try to simultaneously provide myself with a safety net while taking risks that might have good yield.

    10. I'm actually surprisingly good at adapting in the moment, when there is little time for fear. I generally enjoy the thrill of it. I wish I had the willpower to just stop myself from thinking until the moment!

    11. I get pissed at myself. But again, I'm fairly good at adapting. The fear is largely an artifact of mental masturbation.

    12. Well, let me try to explain. A coworker of mine was fired recently. I was surprised that it happened on that particular day, because I hadn't been thinking about it lately, and it's hard to predict exactly how you will feel upon sudden shock like that. But I wasn't surprised in general, and I said that aloud. Some of my other coworkers looked surprised and vaguely annoyed at me for saying that, but I explained that I always spoke with the fired coworker during a certain weekly task, and it seemed like he was frequently in a dispute with the manager. I had seen them openly argue and it was clear the two didn't like one another. On top of that, the manager and the employee had very different work styles, plus the manager is not shy about firing people when he dislikes them. So... it was not surprising, but it was surprising. Do you see what I mean?

    I very much dislike when my INFJ 6 coworker tells us about her "prophecies", though. I think it's unlikely and inflated. It's nice if you have foresight but it's shitty if you're taking pride in it and not using it to help others. Not that INFJ 6s do this - she's just kind of crazy.

    13. I gave some money to a guy who said he needed gas with some elaborate story that turned out to be a local con. I was aware there was that chance at the time, though. And I'm relatively gullible in terms of falling for people's little whimsical stories.

    14. Yes, when it's too late to do anything else. I was in charge of a big gathering last weekend and had 2 hours to go, and I had no idea if I'd have everything ready. I just blazed into it like it will turn out great because no other way of approaching it would have been better. It's very linked to how mental 6's fear is. 6's don't actually have trouble with action, just anticipation that blocks them from acting.

    15. That's a very hard question. The only thing I trust completely is the ultimate good of existence and the universe, because ultimately it doesn't matter if I'm wrong; I'd rather live my life like the universe is purposeful and good. That's kind of the attitude I take towards things when I do trust them - it's because I prefer to live in a world where I trust them. I want to trust my close family and my boyfriend. I've had some bad experiences with people because I think the sx in me tends to get attached to people that are attractive to me, instead of ones that treat me well, and I've been trying harder lately to make good friendships with people that are kind and trustworthy. Lately I've really been looking for compassion and a sense of equality in people when considering how far to trust them.

  3. #3
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    260

    Default

    1.Is it important to you to be able to predict how things will turn out?

    I’m an Ni-dom too, so trying to predict things is like breathing to me. I wouldn’t phrase it that it’s important to me; I would phrase it that I do it all the time unconsciously.

    2. Do you think of potential or hypothetical futures/outcomes for yourself a great deal?

    Yes

    3. Do you ever predict things in an overly optimistic way, or do you tend to always err on the side of caution?

    Sometimes I do, yes. Especially when I’m thinking about long-term scenarios. Like if some new movement that I believe in is picking up speed, I’ll start imagining how if everything goes right for them that such-and-such world issues will be solved. (But that euphoria normally only lasts for a short time, and then I’ll start predicting things more realistically once the excitement wears off.) But for some reason, when it’s short-term predictions, it’s more geared toward pessimistic thoughts.

    4. When/if you assume the worst, do you do it because you genuinely believe it will really happen, or do you intentionally lower your expectations so you won't end up disappointed/unprepared?

    I can’t say I consciously try to lower my expectations so that I won’t end up disappointed. But I do like to be prepared for the worst-case scenario. I will sometimes start running through the worst-case scenarios in my head as a way of calming myself because if I flesh it out, I can better tell how it’s unlikely to actually happen, or how even if it happens, it still won’t impact me significantly in the long run and I can still get through it.

    However, if I actually believe the worst will happen, it is genuine belief.

    5. How do you feel when things turn out better than expected? Are you just relieved, or does it bother you that you went a bit overboard?

    Both. There’s obviously relief when things go well, but the older I’m getting, the more irritated I am at wasting time fearing bad things that don’t happen. I know logically that spending too much time worrying about something that doesn’t happen is suffering for no reason, and I also know that even if the bad thing does happen, it’s like suffering twice for it, so it’s still not a good thing. This is why I try to predict how likely something is to happen, and how much impact I could actually have on the situation, so that way I try to only worry about things that have a decent chance of happening and that I can actually do something about. (For instance, there’s a good chance that at some point an asteroid will collide with the earth, but I can’t do a damn thing about it, so I don’t worry about it.)

    6. Do you often find yourself saying, "I told you so" or, "I knew that would happen" or just generally relishing being right?

    I wouldn’t say often. But it can be really frustrating sometimes when people don’t listen to me. When no matter what you say, it’s like talking to a wall. So I can’t deny a feeling of being vindicated in those scenarios when the things I predict pan out. I normally don’t actually say “I told you so,” though, since that’s rude and can’t change the situation anyway. However, I am more likely to say something like “I knew it” if it’s a prediction that I never told people about beforehand and so they never actually rejected it. Then I’m not rubbing it in people’s faces that they didn’t believe me. But it’s something bad that happens (as opposed to an outcome that’s more neutral and doesn’t really hurt anyone), I don’t relish it at all. I just feel sad.

    7. Does naivety or lack of foresight in others really bother you? If so, why?

    Not so much naivety but lack of foresight. For instance, when I was watching the first season of Breaking Bad, I kept yelling at Walter White, who is a generally smart guy, for not noticing that his plan obviously would lead to his family’s downfall and put them in more danger instead of securing their future. I guess that’s it, that if something seems obvious to me, it’s like, “Why didn’t you already anticipate this?” and can be frustrating. I’m thinking this may be more Ni related than 6 related. But I’m less bothered by this as time goes on because I realize that not everyone is like me in constantly thinking about the future.

    8. Do you feel compelled to get involved or speak up if someone is making bad decisions? Is it hard for you to keep your mouth shut when people are, or a situation is, 'sure to fail' (eg. at work)?

    I only speak up when I think there’s a good chance they will listen to me, or if the situation is important enough for me to say something even if there’s only a small chance they’ll listen. Or if someone asks me my opinion. But there’s a lot of times when I bite my tongue because I feel like my efforts will be more likely to have a bad outcome than a good one. Plus, people don’t really like advice that isn’t asked for. So if I do say something, I try to phrase it like it’s just my thoughts on something instead of telling them how to change, etc.

    9. How do you feel about risk? Do you enjoy it times or prefer to minimise it (or is some sort of combination of the two)?

    This may be a phobic/counter-phobic thing. Since I’m mostly phobic, I hate risks. Just reading that question got me antsy, haha. How can I enjoy risks? But sometimes my counterphobic side kicks in, and I’ll be attracted to dangerous situations just to prove that I can do it. Like I have a weird thing where I love driving in heavy snow or blizzard conditions for that reason.

    But at the same time, I know that in the big picture, risks are necessary if you want to go after your goals and your dreams. So I do take risks sometimes for this reason, even though I hate the uncertainty at the time and can’t wait for when I will have more security.

    10. How do you react when something (small or large) negative happens that you couldn't possibly have predicted?

    I often just freeze up. I only have inferior Se, so my in the moment flexibility isn’t that great. I really hate those moments.

    11. How do you react when something (small or large) negative happens that you could/should have predicted?

    The same in that I freeze up and hate it. But then I also get pissed at myself since I feel like I should be able to anticipate everything, haha.

    12. Do you ever find yourself caught between enjoying/remarking at something surprising/shocking, and at the same time claiming you knew it would happen all along? If so, how does that work in your head? Have you missed the contradiction, or are these positions somehow congruent in your head in ways others don't understand?

    In reading over @skylights’s answer, I realized that this is true for me too—that the timing of it is surprising, not so much that it happened.

    13. Have you ever been outright tricked, conned or played by someone?

    Yes, sometimes I’ll go to other extreme and trust people too much because I want to trust them.

    14. Do you sometimes charge into a situation convinced that things will turn out well? If so, what gives you that confidence?

    If I ever am totally convinced that a situation will go well, it’s something I’m not aware of, haha. But there are times when I’m convinced that nothing particularly bad will happen, which makes me not worry. This happens after I’ve run through all the likely bad scenarios in my head and realized that even the bad ones happening wouldn’t be that bad. For instance, I graduated from college the other day (*does dance*). And during the rehearsal, the president of the university was telling us all these warnings, like how we need to walk carefully so we don’t trip down the stairs like people in the past have done, and how we’ll look stupid on stage if we do such-and-such . . . but when the time came to actually do it, I was pretty calm. I went through all those scenarios and more in my head, and realized that even if I did trip, it would just be a funny story to laugh about later at reunions, or that if I did look stupid on stage or whatever, no one would even care since they’ll forget about it a second later, etc. So I wasn’t worried and had a good time (and none of those things happened at all anyway).

    15. What/whom do you put faith and trust in? What does it take to qualify as being so?

    Hmm . . . I’m not sure how to answer this at this point.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  4. #4
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    260

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    5. Usually happy, but a little bothered, sometimes, if I sacrificed something that I can't get back, and sometimes little annoyed at people who were convinced the turnout would be good without much rationale, since they didn't sacrifice anything and are still reaping the benefits.
    YES, I feel this way too. It feels irrational to me to feel irritated with people just because they weren't pessimistic like me, but yeah. I think for me there's a bit of jealousy going on.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  5. #5
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Oh, good questions!
    Really? I was worried they weren't, for one reason or another. I'm glad it's of interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    1. It's important to me to feel like I'm ready for whatever might happen. I'm not as focused on the exact turnout, but rather, being prepared for the worst case possible. Essentially it boils down to never wanting to be caught off guard. Lately I've been trying to be less situationally prepared and more living a lifestyle in which I don't mind being caught off guard.
    How does this work, you being a Perceiver? You mention being adaptable too - is it a different sort of adaptability?

    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter
    ’m an Ni-dom too, so trying to predict things is like breathing to me. I wouldn’t phrase it that it’s important to me; I would phrase it that I do it all the time unconsciously.
    Yes, I noticed the cross over and was wondering how that might factor in. Do you think they work in the same way or slightly differently?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    2. All the time. ALL the time. This may be exacerbated by N dom. Mostly it's exciting possibilities for the future, when the possibilities aren't immediately possible, but basically as soon as they become tangible, I begin running worst-case scenarios. It's sort of a weird reversal of how it should work - it's like as soon as a door of opportunity is open, I start convincing myself of why the option wouldn't be good. My boyfriend (ISFJ 9w1) has really been helping me see this and work through it.
    Interesting. Does Ne become an added problem, in that it can think up lots of possibly outcomes that aren't desirable?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    3. ...I try to anticipate just a little worse than what I think is likely, to optimize not wasting resources but being prepared.
    Optimisation is involved? So is it in part trying to affect the best outcome for yourself (and/or others), rather than simply minimising the damage from negative outcomes? In other words, it's not just damage control ahead of time, it's a more active management of risk?

    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter
    3. Sometimes I do, yes. Especially when I’m thinking about long-term scenarios. Like if some new movement that I believe in is picking up speed, I’ll start imagining how if everything goes right for them that such-and-such world issues will be solved. (But that euphoria normally only lasts for a short time, and then I’ll start predicting things more realistically once the excitement wears off.) But for some reason, when it’s short-term predictions, it’s more geared toward pessimistic thoughts.
    What happens when long-term scenarios become more immediate, do you become more pessimistic? Is it just nerves as things become more real and present possibilities?

    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter
    4. I will sometimes start running through the worst-case scenarios in my head as a way of calming myself because if I flesh it out, I can better tell how it’s unlikely to actually happen, or how even if it happens, it still won’t impact me significantly in the long run and I can still get through it.
    This is fascinating! You're employing the 6 inclination to over-think to such positive ends - it also seems like achieving some sort of balance between being Phobic and Counterphobic. It's like the statement, "What about all the terrible things that could happen?!", becomes, "Oh, well. What's the worst that could happen?".

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    5. Usually happy, but a little bothered, sometimes, if I sacrificed something that I can't get back, and sometimes little annoyed at people who were convinced the turnout would be good without much rationale, since they didn't sacrifice anything and are still reaping the benefits.
    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter
    5. Both. There’s obviously relief when things go well, but the older I’m getting, the more irritated I am at wasting time fearing bad things that don’t happen. I know logically that spending too much time worrying about something that doesn’t happen is suffering for no reason, and I also know that even if the bad thing does happen, it’s like suffering twice for it, so it’s still not a good thing. This is why I try to predict how likely something is to happen, and how much impact I could actually have on the situation, so that way I try to only worry about things that have a decent chance of happening and that I can actually do something about. (For instance, there’s a good chance that at some point an asteroid will collide with the earth, but I can’t do a damn thing about it, so I don’t worry about it.)
    So there is a desire to perfect your prediction ability and maximise the appropriateness of the response? Is this something you are constantly working on to get it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    6. ...I don't really get any joy out of it. :[
    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter
    6. I wouldn’t say often. But it can be really frustrating sometimes when people don’t listen to me. When no matter what you say, it’s like talking to a wall. So I can’t deny a feeling of being vindicated in those scenarios when the things I predict pan out. I normally don’t actually say “I told you so,” though, since that’s rude and can’t change the situation anyway. However, I am more likely to say something like “I knew it” if it’s a prediction that I never told people about beforehand and so they never actually rejected it. Then I’m not rubbing it in people’s faces that they didn’t believe me. But it’s something bad that happens (as opposed to an outcome that’s more neutral and doesn’t really hurt anyone), I don’t relish it at all. I just feel sad.
    Yes, vindication I would expect - especially if people would reject or laugh at you. But it seems like you really don't get pleasure out of knowing you were right. Do you think it has to do with the fact that 6s tend to toward pessimistic predictions? Is it like the displeasure of seeing your fears come to life, rather than satisfaction of seeing things click into place just as you said they would - a chaotic vision rather than the comforting expectation?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #6
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter
    7.Not so much naivety but lack of foresight. For instance, when I was watching the first season of Breaking Bad, I kept yelling at Walter White, who is a generally smart guy, for not noticing that his plan obviously would lead to his family’s downfall and put them in more danger instead of securing their future. I guess that’s it, that if something seems obvious to me, it’s like, “Why didn’t you already anticipate this?” and can be frustrating. I’m thinking this may be more Ni related than 6 related. But I’m less bothered by this as time goes on because I realize that not everyone is like me in constantly thinking about the future.
    No, my Mum's a Si-user 6 and she's exactly like that. She seems to see that sort of foresight as crucial part of personal responsibility (especially towards others), and she's very unforgiving of those that don't anticipate such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    10. I'm actually surprisingly good at adapting in the moment, when there is little time for fear. I generally enjoy the thrill of it. I wish I had the willpower to just stop myself from thinking until the moment!
    So for you it's good when the circumstances override your inclination to overthink? Does that give you more clarity?

    Doesn't this sound like a little of that CP aspect creeping in?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    11. I get pissed at myself. But again, I'm fairly good at adapting. The fear is largely an artifact of mental masturbation.
    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter
    11. The same in that I freeze up and hate it. But then I also get pissed at myself since I feel like I should be able to anticipate everything, haha.
    So you put pressure on yourselves to get it right? Is this more for the sake of knowing you got it right or is it because the negative outcome affects you so much that you are so desperate to avoid it?

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    12. Well, let me try to explain. A coworker of mine was fired recently. I was surprised that it happened on that particular day, because I hadn't been thinking about it lately, and it's hard to predict exactly how you will feel upon sudden shock like that. But I wasn't surprised in general, and I said that aloud. Some of my other coworkers looked surprised and vaguely annoyed at me for saying that, but I explained that I always spoke with the fired coworker during a certain weekly task, and it seemed like he was frequently in a dispute with the manager. I had seen them openly argue and it was clear the two didn't like one another. On top of that, the manager and the employee had very different work styles, plus the manager is not shy about firing people when he dislikes them. So... it was not surprising, but it was surprising. Do you see what I mean?
    So it doesn't matter how about the precise details of how it manifests (which creates the surprise), as long as you got the overall picture right (the unsurprising part)? Makes sense I suppose. But don't you ever find that kinda weird? In an interesting, unexpected way, I mean. It just seems like a unusual, little 6 quirk I've noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    13. I gave some money to a guy who said he needed gas with some elaborate story that turned out to be a local con. I was aware there was that chance at the time, though. And I'm relatively gullible in terms of falling for people's little whimsical stories.
    But does that get to you? I've given people money in those situations knowing they're probably lying but I can live with it because I figure begging for money is a pretty horrible situation to be in as it is - it doesn't really bother me. But I've just noticed that with 6s I know, that can really get their goat and they can struggle to let it go.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights
    14. Yes, when it's too late to do anything else. I was in charge of a big gathering last weekend and had 2 hours to go, and I had no idea if I'd have everything ready. I just blazed into it like it will turn out great because no other way of approaching it would have been better. It's very linked to how mental 6's fear is. 6's don't actually have trouble with action, just anticipation that blocks them from acting.
    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter
    14. ... I went through all those scenarios and more in my head, and realized that even if I did trip, it would just be a funny story to laugh about later at reunions, or that if I did look stupid on stage or whatever, no one would even care since they’ll forget about it a second later, etc. So I wasn’t worried and had a good time (and none of those things happened at all anyway).
    These responses are very interesting. I think in both your cases it's a lot like what I was saying about a balance between the Phobic and Counter-phobic. Do you ever feel like there's a pull within yourself between confidence and caution?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #7
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    How does this work, you being a Perceiver? You mention being adaptable too - is it a different sort of adaptability?
    It's funny, because I've always seen my hunt for information, a la Pe dom, in terms of usefulness. Fascination, yes, but also for the sake of being ready to face everything. It's more of a passive sort of adaptability, being ready to respond to anything, as opposed to Judgers, who seem more to be collecting information for specific situations and employing it pointedly. They're more intentional at any given moment, more acting to bring what they want into being in the external world. I just want to be ready for whatever the external world brings to me.

    Does Ne become an added problem, in that it can think up lots of possibly outcomes that aren't desirable?
    Actually, you'd think it would, but I usually hone in on one worst case that seems most likely and obsess about the aspects of that. I'm thinking Fi and Te do a lot to help narrow down what I care most about preventing and what seems most likely to actually occur.

    Optimisation is involved? So is it in part trying to affect the best outcome for yourself (and/or others), rather than simply minimising the damage from negative outcomes? In other words, it's not just damage control ahead of time, it's a more active management of risk?
    Oh, yeah, absolutely. I don't know if this is 6-related, or Ne/Te, or just a personal quirk, but I try to balance and optimize situations. I have a very clear hierarchy of what is important and what I go all out for, and what I don't. It's also sort of tied into idealization. I really try to make situations perfect, picturesque, ideal, etc. I'm an NF, what can I say?

    s is fascinating! You're employing the 6 inclination to over-think to such positive ends - it also seems like achieving some sort of balance between being Phobic and Counterphobic. It's like the statement, "What about all the terrible things that could happen?!", becomes, "Oh, well. What's the worst that could happen?".
    Yeah, it can be comforting sometimes. I feel like this result is "getting it right", lol. Like using your awareness to be cognizant but also using it to see how it's going to be okay (or, in the rare few situations where it's really not going to be okay, using it to GTFO).

    So there is a desire to perfect your prediction ability and maximise the appropriateness of the response? Is this something you are constantly working on to get it right?
    Yes. I don't think it's very conscious. But since being more accurate/appropriate improves outcome, I definitely do try to do my best every time.

    Yes, vindication I would expect - especially if people would reject or laugh at you. But it seems like you really don't get pleasure out of knowing you were right. Do you think it has to do with the fact that 6s tend to toward pessimistic predictions? Is it like the displeasure of seeing your fears come to life, rather than satisfaction of seeing things click into place just as you said they would - a chaotic vision rather than the comforting expectation?
    Yeah, pretty much. You don't want those things to happen, which is why you try to think them through to a place where you can do as much damage control as possible. The best would be prevention and redirection. It sort of feels like a failure when I see something negative coming and then watch it pass. Like I should have been able to do something to stop it.

    So for you it's good when the circumstances override your inclination to overthink? Does that give you more clarity?
    Yes and no... some of the reason I can improv is that I've gathered a lot of information over time trying to prepare myself. So in a way, the overthinking sets me up to do well, since I have a good amount of resources at hand. And then being an ExxP makes it relatively easy to utilize the Pe-Je, which is great on the fly.

    Sometimes I do a shitty job though, especially if I'm under pressure to get it right. I'm great with audiences where I'm anonymous or if I'm not concerned about someone judging me, but if I feel a lot of pressure, I might freeze up and the whole thing might go to hell.

    Doesn't this sound like a little of that CP aspect creeping in?
    Yes! And "flow state". Sometimes I can tap into that place of "fuck all this shit" and just enjoy myself.

    So you put pressure on yourselves to get it right? Is this more for the sake of knowing you got it right or is it because the negative outcome affects you so much that you are so desperate to avoid it?
    Personally, it's definitely about avoiding the negative outcome. I don't think all that much about my accuracy - I'm pretty much always in a state of wanting to improve it.

    So it doesn't matter how about the precise details of how it manifests (which creates the surprise), as long as you got the overall picture right (the unsurprising part)? Makes sense I suppose.
    Well... no... I just meant that sometimes things are surprising and unsurprising at the same time. I don't really have much of a focus on whether I'm getting it right or not... like I said above, I'm much more concerned about the outcome, so I don't really think much in terms of success. I think what I was trying to convey was more along the lines of you can sort of see something coming, but you might be seeing a lot of things coming, and if you're not focused on a specific one, then it can still be jarring when it happens. And it's sort of like having a sick loved one pass away - even if you know it's coming there's still a shocking finality about it when it finally does happen. Even when you know it's coming, it's not REAL yet until it happens, and it can still be very startling when it becomes real, because that's when you have to face the consequences.

    But don't you ever find that kinda weird? In an interesting, unexpected way, I mean. It just seems like a unusual, little 6 quirk I've noticed.


    Oh, well, maybe? I guess because I always anticipate things it's not really surprising that some of them happen. It's just surprising when they happen, or sometimes how. Maybe other people find it strange to observe my response when it's half "oh snap" and half "I could see that coming". I've really never thought about that before.

    But does that get to you? I've given people money in those situations knowing they're probably lying but I can live with it because I figure begging for money is a pretty horrible situation to be in as it is - it doesn't really bother me. But I've just noticed that with 6s I know, that can really get their goat and they can struggle to let it go.
    Eh, it didn't bother me in that scenario because I knew it was a possbility. I mean, I wasn't thrilled, but it didn't bother me much in terms of me screwing up. Basically my line of thought was the same as yours, sucks to be in a situation where you'd resort to that anyway.

    As for 6s in general, there's probably some component of being upset when you feel like you knew something, and then discovering it was a false premise, so maybe you're not as safe/protected/stable as you thought you were.

    These responses are very interesting. I think in both your cases it's a lot like what I was saying about a balance between the Phobic and Counter-phobic. Do you ever feel like there's a pull within yourself between confidence and caution?
    Very often, to the extent that I don't really believe in a phobic-CP split. I think it can be useful for individuals to identify somewhere on the spectrum if they lean very far either way, but I think most 6s will fall in the middle, with aspects of both.

  8. #8
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    260

    Default

    Yes, I noticed the cross over and was wondering how that might factor in. Do you think they work in the same way or slightly differently?
    I’m still trying to work out in my mind exactly how they work differently, but it seems to me that being a 6 makes you be aware of the possible negative outcomes that could happen while Ni helps you predict exactly what will happen. Ni is not just focused on bad outcomes; it just tells you which outcome is most likely whether it’s a good one or not. @skylights’s posts are helping me out with working this out; for instance, she says here:

    I'm not as focused on the exact turnout, but rather, being prepared for the worst case possible.
    In contrast, I am more focused on the exact turnout. Ni helps me to see whether the bad scenarios that my 6 conjures up are actually likely to happen or not. And it also helps me figure out whether I can do something about it (what effect my actions will have on these possibilities), and if I can, how to strategically go about making things come out as close to how I want them to. I hope skylights will tell me if I’m misinterpreting how we differ with our Ni/Ne.

    On the other hand, when my Ni makes a prediction, my 6 makes me try to poke holes in it to see if it holds up. I’ve wasted so much time not trusting my Ni predictions that were right because my 6 makes me hate the idea of blindly trusting something without seeing if it can stand up to scrutiny, even my own insights.

    What happens when long-term scenarios become more immediate, do you become more pessimistic? Is it just nerves as things become more real and present possibilities?
    I think it’s that things that are a long way off from happening can’t hurt you since they’re not close to you, so there’s less reason to be cautious when thinking about them. But things that are right about to happen can.

    This is fascinating! You're employing the 6 inclination to over-think to such positive ends - it also seems like achieving some sort of balance between being Phobic and Counterphobic. It's like the statement, "What about all the terrible things that could happen?!", becomes, "Oh, well. What's the worst that could happen?".
    Yeah, it’s great when this can happen . It’s better than when I go through scenarios and I realize something really bad does have a good chance of happening. Plus, I feel like turning the bad possibilities into “well, it wouldn’t be that bad anyway” is a way of preparing for them since if they do happen, I’m not paralyzed with feeling like oh-no, this is horrible.

    So there is a desire to perfect your prediction ability and maximise the appropriateness of the response? Is this something you are constantly working on to get it right?
    For me, yes. I can’t change the fact that I’m a 6 and that I’ll be scrutinizing everything, looking for possibilities of where something is going or can go wrong. So predicting the likeliness of these possibilities and figuring out how what actions I take in response will have the best outcome is working with my 6 nature and honing it for the best.

    Yes, vindication I would expect - especially if people would reject or laugh at you. But it seems like you really don't get pleasure out of knowing you were right. Do you think it has to do with the fact that 6s tend to toward pessimistic predictions? Is it like the displeasure of seeing your fears come to life, rather than satisfaction of seeing things click into place just as you said they would - a chaotic vision rather than the comforting expectation?
    There is a satisfaction of when things happen like I predicted (this may be separating Ni from 6 predictions here since Ni predictions aren’t bent toward being negative), but when it’s something that is negative, the horror of seeing it happen overrides any of the satisfaction.

    No, my Mum's a Si-user 6 and she's exactly like that. She seems to see that sort of foresight as crucial part of personal responsibility (especially towards others), and she's very unforgiving of those that don't anticipate such things.
    I think it’s both part of being a 6 and an Ni-user since I’ve seen other Ni-doms who aren’t 6s be this way too. Or maybe simply being a Pi-dom does this since Si can help you predict the future too, although in a different way than Ni.

    So you put pressure on yourselves to get it right? Is this more for the sake of knowing you got it right or is it because the negative outcome affects you so much that you are so desperate to avoid it?
    For me, I do take some pride in being able to predict things. I think we all know we’re good at our dominant functions and have some satisfaction with that and try to hone it. But another part of it is what I said before to answer another question: “I can’t change the fact that I’m a 6 and that I’ll be scrutinizing everything, looking for possibilities of where something is going or can go wrong. So predicting the likeliness of these possibilities and figuring out how what actions I take in response will have the best outcome is working with my 6 nature and honing it for the best.”

    These responses are very interesting. I think in both your cases it's a lot like what I was saying about a balance between the Phobic and Counter-phobic. Do you ever feel like there's a pull within yourself between confidence and caution?
    I’ve never thought about it like that before . . . interesting. I’ll have to think over it and see if I can give you a better response.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  9. #9
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,489

    Default

    Not reading the other ones first, mostly from laziness. I think I am 6w5, phobic. Seems like most people here are CP for whatever reason.

    1. Is it important to you to be able to predict how things will turn out? Yes, at least a vague idea of what is most likely, plus a few possible alternative outcomes. Details not so important.

    2. Do you think of potential or hypothetical futures/outcomes for yourself a great deal?
    I would say no, it depends how vague we're talking though. I have a vague idea of things like future career, where I want to live, what I want to do, how I want to improve myself, etc, but I don't spend much time thinking about it or planning out the details.

    3. Do you ever predict things in an overly optimistic way, or do you tend to always err on the side of caution?
    I would actually say I don't go to either side - I focus on what is most likely, which I guess is fairly optimistic because usually things do work out well, and also spend a bit of time considering "reasonable worst case" scenarios. I really only spend time thinking about the worst case scenarios that are both relatively likely AND significantly harmful - otherwise I don't really think about them at all, and just figure that I can deal with it when it comes up.


    4. When/if you assume the worst, do you do it because you genuinely believe it will really happen, or do you intentionally lower your expectations so you won't end up disappointed/unprepared?

    Definitely the first one. I can tell when I'm doing the latter so it doesn't really work for me. I can't trick myself like that. Plus, I don't really expect or assume any particular outcome - I actively try to avoid having expectations at all, actually. I just have an idea of what things might be likely to happen, and figure that if something unexpected happens, I can deal with it then.

    5. How do you feel when things turn out better than expected? Are you just relieved, or does it bother you that you went a bit overboard?
    Sometimes I feel silly that I worried too much, but mostly I just accept that it's my nature. I don't get super stressed from worrying/analyzing, so I don't think it's a big deal that I often overanalyze things.

    6. Do you often find yourself saying, "I told you so" or, "I knew that would happen" or just generally relishing being right?

    Yes, but I try to rein it in because nobody likes that.

    7. Does naivety or lack of foresight in others really bother you? If so, why?
    Yes, because it is a foreign mindset to me and it seems obvious that more foresight would improve people's lives in many cases, so it's frustrating to see them being so shortsighted. I have to admit I look down on it a bit because it's so easy to avoid. It is particularly enraging when the lack of foresight negatively affects others, or worse, me.

    8. Do you feel compelled to get involved or speak up if someone is making bad decisions? Is it hard for you to keep your mouth shut when people are, or a situation is, 'sure to fail' (eg. at work)?
    Depends on the situation. I will usually feel the impulse, but will often restrain it. More recently I've been trying to restrain it more, as I've discovered that a lot of people are upset by this.

    9. How do you feel about risk? Do you enjoy it times or prefer to minimise it (or is some sort of combination of the two)?
    Minimize, never enjoy. Adrenaline is fun but only when it's simulated risk, not actual risk. Depends what we're risking obviously. Death, no go. 5$, maybe. I guess I risk sports injuries to play, but that's because the benefits outweigh that risk, not because the risk itself is "thrilling".

    10. How do you react when something (small or large) negative happens that you couldn't possibly have predicted?
    um, bad? surprised? Don't know what you're fishing for here.

    11. How do you react when something (small or large) negative happens that you could/should have predicted?
    I guess the same as #10 plus some guilt/anger at myself for failing to predict it?

    12. Do you ever find yourself caught between enjoying/remarking at something surprising/shocking, and at the same time claiming you knew it would happen all along?
    No, this does not make sense to me at all.

    13. Have you ever been outright tricked, conned or played by someone?
    If I had, I wouldn't know about it, would I? Not to my knowledge.

    14. Do you sometimes charge into a situation convinced that things will turn out well? If so, what gives you that confidence?
    Never. You never know what will happen. See: no expectations. However, I am generally convinced that whatever happens, I can find a way to deal with it.

    15. What/whom do you put faith and trust in? What does it take to qualify as being so?
    I trust different people for different things, depending on how what I know of their personality, how close we are, and how they've behaved in the past. I don't know if I really trust anyone 100% - including myself. People are human, and inherently unpredictable. I'm ok with that. Trust for me is more of a "I'm pretty sure you'll do this", not "I know you will do this".

    edit: after reading the other answers, it seems like my SP (or maybe Ti?) nature shifts my overanalyzing tendencies to maybe be less stressful? Like I'll still turn things over in my mind endlessly, but I really don't stress about them. It's just like a mental problem or something, like I'm trying to optimize my future responses, but not really actively worrying in an emotional sense, because I know that whatever happens, I can probably deal with it, and even if I can't, it is very unlikely to be a big deal.
    -end of thread-

  10. #10
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    In contrast, I am more focused on the exact turnout. Ni helps me to see whether the bad scenarios that my 6 conjures up are actually likely to happen or not. And it also helps me figure out whether I can do something about it (what effect my actions will have on these possibilities), and if I can, how to strategically go about making things come out as close to how I want them to. I hope skylights will tell me if I’m misinterpreting how we differ with our Ni/Ne.
    No, I think you've got it right. I think I use Te and Si to estimate probability of things occurring - whether it's logical based on the external parameters of the situation, and how similar situations have turned out in the past. I strategize a little, but I don't really always have an ideal turnout in mind - or if I do, it's generally about the aesthetics of the whole thing, rather than how it pans out exactly.

    For me, I do take some pride in being able to predict things. I think we all know we’re good at our dominant functions and have some satisfaction with that and try to hone it. But another part of it is what I said before to answer another question: “I can’t change the fact that I’m a 6 and that I’ll be scrutinizing everything, looking for possibilities of where something is going or can go wrong. So predicting the likeliness of these possibilities and figuring out how what actions I take in response will have the best outcome is working with my 6 nature and honing it for the best.”
    Thought I'd comment on the Ne/Ni difference here - Personally, I don't do much of the way in celebrating prediction, since I usually just make a quick first-glance guess and don't go much further into than that. However, I, too, take pride when my 6 nature has helped me and others avoid problems, or to see them in time to nip them in the bud.

Similar Threads

  1. [NF] INFP coming for knowledge and fun.
    By Junaid in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-29-2014, 03:10 AM
  2. [Other] Knowledge and its application
    By ALL-HAIL-ME in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-04-2014, 11:14 AM
  3. How do you become informed and knowledgable?
    By swordpath in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 11-12-2009, 04:52 PM
  4. manipulation and MBTI knowledge
    By sculpting in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 123
    Last Post: 05-12-2009, 11:41 PM
  5. xNTP and breadth and depth of knowledge
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 10-28-2008, 01:03 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO