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  1. #1
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    Default I Just Had An Epiphany About Being a Counterphobic 6 Who Is Not An SJ

    A lot of the 6 descriptions make the healthiest levels of E6 sound kind of hokey and dull and conservative, which probably means that a lot of counterphobic or even just non-Si type 6s feel a kind of revulsion toward some of the descriptions.

    I know for the longest time I felt a clear identification with the "average health" levels of 6, all of the reactivity and raging against the machine sounded a lot more like me, and I thought what am I doomed to never be "healthiest" since I'm counterphobic?

    Then I started working on my spiritual self (which is probably something I also desperately needed to do not just because of 6 reactivity and defensiveness, but also because of having a strong 7 wing making me distractable and escapist) because the integration of the 6 is at the zen like 9. My Fi could definitely hang with that, so I focused instead on integrating at 9 instead of those lame Boy Scout definitions of top health level 6s.

    That's been working for me.

    But tonight in the hipster thread I had an amazing revelation: I take popular culture VERY seriously as a reflection of society. I'm constantly scanning music, literature, and art, and all the connected variables, for their reflection of the attitudes, ethics, and politics of the current (and past) societies. It's a life-long obsession, literally something that naturally began in childhood.

    I take popular culture seriously in a way that probably strikes some people as vapid or maybe pretentious, but I see it as a very genuine form human art, it's the art of the common people, it's the creative expression of what life is like in that era. You really can change people's minds with songs and pictures and books and films.

    Art is power, even if it's not "high art."

    So yeah I realized that I actually take a kind of childlike glee in the hipster culture, not just because it's fun or I like some of the music, but because I proudly see a reflection of my own societal values becoming mainstream (such as non-Hollywood film, creativity in music, handmade, DIY, sustainable, eco-friendly, alternative transportation, artisanal foods and beverages, anti-corporate, et al).

    I realized just how fundamentally the overall hipster culture reflects a "normalization" of my own values, and to see those values start to become mainstream is a joyful thing for me. Unlike a 4, who I think maybe make up the majority of "real hipsters" who are very bitter and angry about "mainstream hipsters" and feel like they shouldn't call themselves hipsters at all.

    But my thinking is, look, these cultural values aren't yours to hoard as some reflection of your own narcissistic identity, these are ideas and ethics that are good to share with others. Other people adapting to these values is a good thing. It's a happy thing.

    It means the world is changing. I have played a part in building a community, that's how I feel, I feel like I've had indirect influence on helping to create a new world, and that new world, no matter how imperfect, is clearly emerging.

    In a world where progressive politics and experimental music and counterculture and high valuation of that which is independent and non-corporate is actually becoming the "norm"...dude, this isn't something to complain about THIS IS PARTY TIME.

    And this is what it feels like to be a healthy counterphobic 6, or to have "a moment" of high level counterphobic 6 health.

    The counterphobic 6 at high health levels also delights in building community. It's just a counterculture community. The counterphobic 6 is the one building the brave new world, rather than the phobic 6 who works within an already agreed-upon conservative framework to solidify their communities.

    That probably means most cult leaders are also counterphobic 6s, but I digress.
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  2. #2
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    Also this is not to talk shit about 6s who are phobic, or about SJs.

    To the contrary, a healthy 6 would see just how valuable those people are to carrying out the community effort and sustaining it. Those "main-streamers" are the people who are carrying out the ethics every day and applying them in the real world, slowly making the world more and more securely built to that goal.

    I don't know if this all sounds a bit creepy (I'm sure it does to some types) but I feel a tremendous sense of relief realizing that the new normal is something that I consider to be a lot more ethical and healthy than what "normal" was for middle class white people when I was 10 or 12 years old.

    A healthy 6 knows when to stop and smile, knows when to stop fighting and to start realizing that something wonderful is being built and that it's not always necessary to be anxious if there's nothing to worry about.

    I see realistic evidence that something is being built, and that I can now build into what I love instead of constantly fearing that I'll have to tear down what I hate. Evidence of support by the Darth Vader Imperial Army of Conformist Hipsters reassures me that there will be plenty of support for progressive politics, small business, micro-breweries, independent music and film, and environmentally sustainable products and services everywhere.

    This is kind of trippy. I think I'm having a real shift in consciousness here.

  3. #3
    The Iron Giant
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    I see increasing health levels in type six as largely about dropping the destructive behaviors, like the reactivity and the irrational worrying. I agree with you that, after losing those lower behaviors and becoming more peaceful, we're a much more varied bunch than some of the descriptions suggest.

    I'm happy for you on your success of self-awareness!

  4. #4
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Heck yeah Marm. I'm not sure if I can identify as fully CP, but I certainly have some of it in me. Not long ago I went through a long period when I was fighting so hard against the lower-management structure at work because I had a cruel, petty, unfair, and incompetent supervisor, and I felt like I was raging against the machine every day. Sometimes I would hit this low where I would wonder if I was just doomed to rage on forever and if I would never be on the upside of things - if I were just always going to be a rebel and always fighting against the tide. Especially after the supervisor was finally demoted, I was left feeling hollow and like I hadn't accomplished much. But it's not true. I've done a lot of little things to make things more positive where I work, and I like encouraging happiness and unity whenever possible. And when we finally got a better supervisor, I was even able to relax and help rebuild, which was so wonderful and incredibly surprisingly peaceful. I think I will always have a fighter spirit, but I think I can put it to work fighting for people instead of against them. I think 6s like us just have to remember to let ourselves breathe and enjoy the upside because we're so used to only seeing the endless battles for justice that still need waging. On the bright side, we'll never be rebels without a cause.

  5. #5
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    The counterphobic 6 is the one building the brave new world...
    I'm totally having an *omg...someone else sees it...someone else gets it* kind of moment right now.

    I have been thinking so much about counterphobia for so long... but haven't really shared my conclusions here for a variety of reasons including 1.) My conclusions are a massive departure from what you may normally end up reading about the type - which is already limited at best. And 2.) We only have a handful of members here that are truly counterphobic...and of that handful less than half even recognize this about themselves because the e6 descriptions are some of the worst of all (next to e7...with a counterphobic wing haha).

    Counterphobia is one hell of a card to be dealt that is for sure... But it has been my opinion for quite some time now that it is literally a formula for *genius*. I was just speaking off-board with another counterphobic member and was using the metaphor fire. It's the fire that keeps propelling you to acquire knowledge and figure out the world. <--Oh, and I also haven't shared because my conclusions are controversial in that they take the assignment of 'genius' away from the e5s haha...and gives it to the e6cp! But after an unbelievable amount of consideration...I honestly can see it no other way. You are compelled to gather knowledge...yet the very thing that causes this compulsion in you is incredibly challenging to learn how to control and put to best use. Figure that out? Yah...you just developed a million more amazing qualities just doing that. And then on top of all of that...you have this natural desire to right wrongs...and improve conditions for those that are part of the struggle. And frankly, what good is knowledge if you are not going to use it for the greater good? So, yes. It is a formula for greatness in my mind...and I'm so happy to see someone else here that appears to share my same understanding.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    I'm totally having an *omg...someone else sees it...someone else gets it* kind of moment right now.

    I have been thinking so much about counterphobia for so long... but haven't really shared my conclusions here for a variety of reasons including 1.) My conclusions are a massive departure from what you may normally end up reading about the type - which is already limited at best. And 2.) We only have a handful of members here that are truly counterphobic...and of that handful less than half even recognize this about themselves because the e6 descriptions are some of the worst of all (next to e7...with a counterphobic wing haha).

    Counterphobia is one hell of a card to be dealt that is for sure... But it has been my opinion for quite some time now that it is literally a formula for *genius*. I was just speaking off-board with another counterphobic member and was using the metaphor fire. It's the fire that keeps propelling you to acquire knowledge and figure out the world. <--Oh, and I also haven't shared because my conclusions are controversial in that they take the assignment of 'genius' away from the e5s haha...and gives it to the e6cp! But after an unbelievable amount of consideration...I honestly can see it no other way. You are compelled to gather knowledge...yet the very thing that causes this compulsion in you is incredibly challenging to learn how to control and put to best use. Figure that out? Yah...you just developed a million more amazing qualities just doing that. And then on top of all of that...you have this natural desire to right wrongs...and improve conditions for those that are part of the struggle. And frankly, what good is knowledge if you are not going to use it for the greater good? So, yes. It is a formula for greatness in my mind...and I'm so happy to see someone else here that appears to share my same understanding.
    I think "fire" is excellent as a metaphor for it. I have a constant fire. But your own fire can consume you if you aren't careful.

    Genius? I wish. Maybe. Like socio-political genius, perhaps.

  7. #7
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    I agree about heading toward 9 integration. Being CP6, I have found a very good place with my integration. Once I knew that "emotions/heart rate/mind racing feeling" when my reactivity struck was my own anxiety tapping me on the shoulder, I could control it and use those entire feelings as a conditioning response to *stop* and tell myself to think and solve - not flail. (I'm pretty convinced that CP6 reaction response is physiologically very similar to a low grade panic attack.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  8. #8
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I think "fire" is excellent as a metaphor for it. I have a constant fire. But your own fire can consume you if you aren't careful.
    Yes, burning fire. Maybe this is the cp-sx connection. Fire.

    @Starry that is a beautiful way of looking at it and very flattering... I see that aspect in myself as a world-bettering impulse, and it certainly pushes one on and on in the search for and utilization of knowledge. But it is a struggle learning to trust the world and oneself... I think that all of the enneatypes are genius in some ways, if only they didn't have the dark shadow side that drops the floor out from underneath us. 1 is the reformer constricted by their need for perfection... 2 the altruist desperate for affection... 3 the star terrified of failure... 4 the aesthete obsessed with the unreal... 5 the intellectual afraid to enact his knowledge... 7 the enthusiast unable to pause for enjoyment... 8 the protector hardened against the world... 9 the peacebringer muting both pain and joy. 6's cp side can make us sociopolitical reformers, certainly, but we hit a problem when we get to the edge of reform and are tasked with the building process, because that requires stability and a starting point, and the core problem of 6 is that we do not know how to identify or create ground to stand on...

    At one point I thought of myself as an agent of Shiva, the Destroying facet of the divine world cycle of Creation - Preservation - Destruction.

    Ideally I will someday be comfortable as a creator and a preserver, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525
    I'm pretty convinced that CP6 reaction response is physiologically very similar to a low grade panic attack.
    Yeah, absolutely. The same fear response, unintentionally egged on by our own selves.

  9. #9
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    @Starry that is a beautiful way of looking at it and very flattering... I see that aspect in myself as a world-bettering impulse, and it certainly pushes one on and on in the search for and utilization of knowledge. But it is a struggle learning to trust the world and oneself...
    I wonder if there is something about the world...some unknown quality or feature that triggers something deep in you...making it difficult for you to trust? I mean, 'cause that's kinda bizarre. Whenever I open up a newspaper/magazine or catch the local/evening broadcast...it's like a warm, blissful feeling rushes over me as I'm once again reminded of how fair & just & perfect things are.

    I guess, I'm not understanding what you mean by the bolded. Do I trust myself to remember to pay my bills? Do I trust myself to make the proper social connections to insure my easy navigation of the workplace or community? Do I trust myself to shave my legs just prior to going to the beach? No. No, I do not. But in the aspects of character that I value I trust myself completely. I have been provided more opportunities than I would have hoped for by which to prove myself to myself. But I will go to my grave never having formed a relationship of trust with the world. And is that a bad thing? The reason I'm asking is because that quality tops my 'Why I Feel Counterphobics Have the Greatest Potential to Impact the World in a Positive Way' list.

    I have seen this solution put forth many times: That the pain and distress caused by an inability to trust in the world and all its systems can only be remedied with trust. I mean, when I encounter people that, in my opinion, (whether it is true in reality or not...) appear to be blindly trusting in a certain system - I do not judge as I know the pain of the alternative. Whatever it is that allows people to do this is missing in me. And if I had 700 lifetimes by which to try and achieve this level of trust it would not develop. No spiritual undertaking has aided me in developing a trustful relationship either. So after a great deal of consideration here are my only two options left... A.) I move onto a piece of land in Indiana I believe or maybe Missouri...build a shed with scrap materials...bury my money in the backyard...and sit with my shot gun rifle across my lap...rottweilers underfoot...and smoke my corncob pipe made of an actual corncob... or B.) I learn how to live with my distrust like a mature adult by seeing it as an asset and reconciling my feelings. <--Now it is nice to have plan A to fall back on...but I'm in the process of attempting to gather myself in order to try B first because it has occurred to me that distrust is an asset. We need people that we can trust not to! There's a part of me that is highly bothered by the fact that people do not see and/or value how vital distrust and destruction is to humanity and our well-being. And if I cared to I could make an argument that a fair amount of the conflict e6cps experience stems from repeatedly being hit with the 'you are a big fat thorn in everyone's side' message...until months, years, centuries past the time the e6cp first smelled smoke...and London is now burning.

    What's funny to me though skylights...is I didn't know you identified as counterphobic...haha!!! Umm...I most definitely see the e6/head-type 'gatherer of knowledge' in you and there is no doubt in my mind the world is a better place as you give of that knowledge freely but counterphobia? Wow. I'm put into a strange position because I have faith in your ability to assess who you are. But let's say today didn't happen haha. Yesterday, I would have sworn under oath that you were a phobic e6...using as evidence the fact I see higher levels of counterphobia from many of our 5w6 and 7w6 members - myself included. Yesterday, I would have confidently proclaimed 'Anyone that thinks skylights is counterphobic is high on crack.' I mean, *Starry says in a humble, non-counterphobic way* I even have a teeny, tiny, very, little, totally non-threatening trouble seeing you as an sx dom. But yah. Just throwing this out there... phobic e6ness...doesn't mean you never get mad or cause a scene.

    Maybe I should make this distinction. The counterphobic individual that I'm referencing in my original post in this thread is the breed of e6cp that is...for a lack of a better word...always counterphobic. <--much like I just stated with regards to the phobics above...this doesn't mean they are never happy or calm or passive or peaceful. But there is a level of intensity there. I have encountered phobic e6s that would sooner jump off a bridge than speak out against the status quo. There are phobics that will have outbursts that appear counterphobic but are merely outbursts. There are phobics that will have episodes of counterphobia...and on and on. But the type of counterphobic that I am referring to is the type that is (pretty much) fearless as a feature of their character. I have no idea how this manifests. Perhaps someone like Blackcat knows. But we have examples of this type throughout history and even a few on this site. I imagine they dealt with their fear by literally becoming fearless.


    I think that all of the enneatypes are genius in some ways
    I think they are all stupid. Okay, haha...this quote may be a signal that I should include some sort of disclaimer? I think the e6cp is not appreciated for how brilliant they are and this frustrates me somewhat. The majority of them seem to courageously stand-up for what is just in my opinion - they uphold the values that are dear to me. It doesn't mean I don't think they are, at times, just as stupid as all the other e-types. (I'm kidding skylights).

    6's cp side can make us sociopolitical reformers, certainly, but we hit a problem when we get to the edge of reform and are tasked with the building process, because that requires stability and a starting point, and the core problem of 6 is that we do not know how to identify or create ground to stand on...
    I'm wondering if you could find some other people to help out...




    8 the protector hardened against the world...
    Edit: Are there e8 descriptions that identify e8 as 'Protector'? Not that e8s aren't or cannot be protective. It's just that I have only seen the titles 'Controller' and 'Challenger' for e8. It is the e6cp that generally receives the title of 'Protector.' 'Protector, Defender (of the underdog), Justice-Fighter'
    The only reason I make mention of this is due to the high mistype 'rate' between the two. IOW...most e6cp end up believing they are e8. But perhaps I have missed something.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Just wanting to point out that 5 and 6 seek different kinds of knowledge and understanding so claiming one is better than the other is quite fallacious in my opinion. Both perspectives got their uses in different contexts.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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