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  1. #11
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Just wanting to point out that 5 and 6 seek different kinds of knowledge and understanding so claiming one is better than the other is quite fallacious in my opinion. Both perspectives got their uses in different contexts.
    Oh dear. See, I was under impression that this Monday in the United States (which is where this site hales from) we were honoring the people that made/make it possible for me to freely share any opinion I may have with regards to e5 & e6. So, for example, if I wanted to say that I thought 'all INTJ e5s seem especially arrogant and appear to over-identify with the intellectual qualities the descriptions assign to them even in instances where it is clearly not warranted' - I could say that. But that's not really what you're saying right? You are in fact sharing your opinion of my ideas right? Calling them 'fallacious' which sounds a little obscene. Boy, I sure hope I didn't hurt your feelings strike a nerve.

    How strange though that the parts of your post you are presenting as factual haven't been part of my experience. I have an e5 and an e6 in my family...and they appear to seek out the same knowledge and often collaborate in intellectual ventures. The only difference is the e6 actually leaves the home and like 'does things' to try and make the world a better place. <--Which warranted the label of genius in my opinion. Maybe if you hadn't felt personally affronted you would have understood my meaning there.

    But yah...I've never been introduced to the facts you are putting forth and would be interested in hearing more about them. What you say must make things especially confusing for the 5w6 and 6w5.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Oh dear. See, I was under impression that this Monday in the United States (which is where this site hales from) we were honoring the people that made/make it possible for me to freely share any opinion I may have with regards to e5 & e6.
    I never said you weren't allowed to express your opinion, did I? Just like you have the right to express your opinion, so do I. And I simply chose to disagree with you.

    So, for example, if I wanted to say that I thought 'all INTJ e5s seem especially arrogant and appear to over-identify with the intellectual qualities the descriptions assign to them even in instances where it is clearly not warranted' - I could say that.
    You are free to express such sentiments and I will in an equal manner choose to disagree when I see fit because I have the right to do that.

    But that's not really what you're saying right? You are in fact sharing your opinion of my ideas right? Calling them 'fallacious' which sounds a little obscene. Boy, I sure hope I didn't hurt your feelings strike a nerve.
    It is fallacious because it is a logical fallacy or if you prefer it like that, a logically fallacious position to claim. If you choose to insert value judgements in that... be my guest.

    How strange though that the parts of your post you are presenting as factual haven't been part of my experience. I have an e5 and an e6 in my family...and they appear to seek out the same knowledge and often collaborate in intellectual ventures. The only difference is the e6 actually leaves the home and like 'does things' to try and make the world a better place. <--Which warranted the label of genius in my opinion. Maybe if you hadn't felt personally affronted you would have understood my meaning there.
    This here is you simply inserting value judgement that you value this kind of behavior more than the knowledge and understanding the E5 seeks. But I could equally point out all the potential E5s in science and how their knowledge-seek has been equally important both in the realms of philosophy and scientific discovery so we can lead the lives we happen to lead today.
    But yah...I've never been introduced to the facts you are putting forth and would be interested in hearing more about them. What you say must make things especially confusing for the 5w6 and 6w5.
    Why must they be more confusing for an E5 and an E6? A 5 is a 5, a 6 is a 6, regardless of wing. If anything, I think someone who struck a nerve here was I, for you to respond to me in this manner to begin with. I do not understand why people inject value judgements that "type X is better" as if this is a universal truth when it clearly is not. All types are as valued for what they contribute with in society. What they contribute with clearly differs, but it doesn't mean it's any less valued. It is simply of different value. That you personally fail to see or do not see the value of what another type contributes with is simply evidence of your personal bias. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  3. #13
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    You are free to express such sentiments and I will in an equal manner choose to disagree when I see fit because I have the right to do that.
    Thank you so much for spelling this all out for me. I mean, this has always been my understanding and was precisely what I said in my response... But it appears it was quite important for you on some level to ignore that...and then say it all back to me as if it were you that originally had this thought and I that needed convincing of it. And that's okay. I still appreciate it all the same.


    This here is you simply inserting value judgement that you value this kind of behavior more than the knowledge and understanding the E5 seeks. But I could equally point out all the potential E5s in science and how their knowledge-seek has been equally important both in the realms of philosophy and scientific discovery so we can lead the lives we happen to lead today.
    Here again as well. Thank you for taking the time to point out that I was doing exactly what I indicated I was doing. You really are easy to work with.


    Why must they be more confusing for an E5 and an E6? A 5 is a 5, a 6 is a 6, regardless of wing. If anything, I think someone who struck a nerve here was I, for you to respond to me in this manner to begin with. I do not understand why people inject value judgements that "type X is better" as if this is a universal truth when it clearly is not. All types are as valued for what they contribute with in society. What they contribute with clearly differs, but it doesn't mean it's any less valued. It is simply of different value. That you personally fail to see or do not see the value of what another type contributes with is simply evidence of your personal bias. Nothing more, nothing less.
    Oh whoops no, here you got it wrong. You will just have to trust me when I say your comments leave me quite emotionless. Especially since you start to lose credibility when you keep shifting back and forth between 'giving me permission to share my individual opinion' and 'calling on the logical fallacy Gods because I am somehow presenting my individual opinion as if it is an universal truth.' This is strange to me and I still wonder if emotion is clouding your judgment. Well, I still thank you for your contributions (?) and please take good care of yourself all the same.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    Thank you so much for spelling this all out for me. I mean, this has always been my understanding and was precisely what I said in my response... But it appears it was quite important for you on some level to ignore that...and then say it all back to me as if it were you that originally had this thought and I that needed convincing of it. And that's okay. I still appreciate it all the same.
    You are absolutely welcome!
    Here again as well. Thank you for taking the time to point out that I was doing exactly what I indicated I was doing. You really are easy to work with.
    Yes, Te is fantastic that way, don't you think?

    Oh whoops no, here you got it wrong. You will just have to trust me when I say your comments leave me quite emotionless.
    Well, that's good, because I didn't want you to get emotionally upset. It tends to be difficult to hold a rational discussion with people who are emotionally upset and start injecting value judgements into their arguments.

    Especially since you start to lose credibility when you keep shifting back and forth between 'giving me permission to share my individual opinion' and 'calling on the logical fallacy Gods because I am somehow presenting my individual opinion as if it is an universal truth.'
    Everyone has the right to express their opinion. It doesn't mean the opinion must be of logical nature. Logically then, it also assumes that everyone has the right to express their opinion that some people are in fact, not expressing opinions that are of logical nature, no?

    This is strange to me and I still wonder if emotion is clouding our judgment. Well, I still thank you for your contributions (?) and please take good care of yourself all the same.
    Our? I thought we were both fully grown and rational adults. And sure, I will, and same to you!

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  5. #15
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    You will just have to trust me when I say your comments leave me quite emotionless.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  6. #16
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Our?
    With the way I type...I'm surprised to have provided you with even partial word with which to comment on. I have edited in case you wanted to check for meaning. Thanks!

  7. #17
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    With the way I type...I'm surprised to have provided you with a even partial word with which to comment on. I have edited in case you wanted to check for meaning. Thanks!
    For the sake of clarity, spelling is important. Although please enlighten me, when do I appear as emotional to you? I seem to be unable to see this within myself.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatlander View Post
    Ha! I'm not kidding when I say...that when I was little...this scene gave me shivers every time and I had forgotten about it! I love this.

  9. #19
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I'm a Phobic 6 I would say. Although this was a really interesting read.

    One opinion I will venture, is that whenever I consider the idea of improving the world around me in some way, i'm consistently struck by the notion that I had better produce some of it myself and it is selfish to dream or imagine improvement or betterment, only to wait for others to pick up on it.

    I suppose that stems from anxiety....but it can be a great motivator. Unfortunately sometimes being comfortable can be an obstacle to that intention.

    So I remind myself that it is occasionally better to be uncomfortable now, for a future that will be comfortable for others.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #20
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    For the sake of clarity, spelling is important. Although please enlighten me, when do I appear as emotional to you? I seem to be unable to see this within myself.
    I agree with regards to the spelling which is why it is something that has always annoyed me about my own typing.

    You accused me of being logically fallacious. And because I feel any straightforward reading of my posts in this thread would/should render that kind of accusation absurd (I even state that my ideas are controversial...as in...'I would be super surprised if anyone shared my opinion')... my mind automatically starts to account for why you would arrive at such a conclusion. Most often when I see this kind of misunderstanding occur it is because the other person has some sort of stake in the matter. And is moved to act rather than seek clarification by an emotional response that 'stake' creates within them. While I cannot be certain...I certainly cannot rule out that that is what happened with you. Seeing that your comment specifically referenced e5s...it appeared to me that you may have been insulted in that regard. Which if this is so I completely understand. If you find my opinion offensive...browse the site. I have been here for some time and for every 1 semi-negative opinion held against an e5...I'm quite certain you will find 1,936,458,023 wholly-negative opinions held against e7s. None of this, however, magically turns my opinion into something that is logically fallacious.

    Speaking of logical fallacy though...
    Did you know that only 1 out of every 10 INTJs recognizes that they are, in fact, 6w5 as opposed to 5w4 or 5w6? Do you know why this is? I do.

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