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  1. #31
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    As a 4w3 so/sx, I find myself filled with a LOT of envy and I have to keep it in check. I get jealous when I see everyone else's life moving forward and I feel like I'm standing still. I cannot stand NOT growing in some way. I'm also an attention whore. I may be a bit more quiet in my everyday life, but if I do something, I make sure that it's the most fabulous thing anyone has experienced. You WILL notice me, I WILL be the best, and you WILL talk about me for days. How selfish is that? Hahaha! I have to be set apart from everyone else. I notice this in the way I entertain on stage with my singing. If most of the people have fast paced songs, I'm going to have a slow emotional song that grabs you and takes you on a heart wrenching ride. If everyone is singing slow, sad stuff, I'm going to have create a fast paced performance that involves the audience. It's really all about connecting with those who are watching you, even if you know they don't understand you, show them you understand them and use that.
    Emotionally, I don't go around crying at everything, but I do feel things to a high degree if it resonates with me. If someone asks me how I am, I'm going to really tell them how I am-even if it's awkward. Of course, this all is when I'm at my best.
    When I'm depressed, I create persona's for myself that depict how I feel. It's probably really bad. When I was 13, I went through a bad bought of depression and to over compensate, I told my mom that I felt powerful like a female vampire who could control boys with her very being. I'd even act that out. Gosh that makes me feel really weird and scarey. Heh... anyway, there's my brain for you: good and bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  2. #32
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    I always thought the pain due to lack of growth was just an Se dominance thing? I could be wrong.

    I'm Sx/So and Se dominant and if there's no sort of movement or progression to my life I start getting hostile and anxious.

  3. #33
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    Growing is necessary because I know so intimately what happens when I don't. To ever stop moving away from that dark side would be unconscionable!
    4w3 6w5 1w2 sx/sp ISFP

    RLOAX (don't do it)
    Melancholic Hufflepuff
    A lonely island where only what is permitted to move moves, becomes an ideal. Jung

    Kiss Kiss [johari] Bang Bang [nohari]

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I always thought the pain due to lack of growth was just an Se dominance thing? I could be wrong.

    I'm Sx/So and Se dominant and if there's no sort of movement or progression to my life I start getting hostile and anxious.
    I would think anyone would get frustrated if their needs weren't getting met.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    @highlander
    The Good and Bad of it:

    Being me is sort of like being Edward Scissorhands. I've long felt like the marginalized one on the edge of society who looks different, acts different, is different. People wind up taking offense to me, and I retreat to my castle on the hill to gaze with dwelling eyes upon the world I can never be a part of. This has been a major theme in my life. I struggle with isolation and feelings of being "apart from" and "different". (This undoubtedly started in grade school when other kids started telling me I was an "ugly alien"...withdrawal and isolation became my dominant way of interacting with the world after 10 years of this).

    Sometimes, I try to hide this feeling with the mask of "Normal", which basically means I imitate what appear to be others' "social skills" in the hopes that I won't "suck too much" according to some social standard I'm not fully aware of. The problem with that is, people can't really get too close or make any observations about me, or else I go into retreat mode "OMG they think I'm a total freak and loser". So, I basically go through life alone, unable to make friends or influence people.

    That's one of the more depressing things about being this type.

    I've struggled with self-esteem issues. Both ways. I loathe and despise myself and feel like an awkward silly fool, or else I've got wildly inflated notions of my own awesomeness (usually depends on if I'm outside or inside the house, respectively). I am borderline dysmorphic, and I sometimes get onto invincibility spates where I forget my own physical limitations.

    Others have mentioned having trouble seeing the envy in themselves? Well, I see it in me, in spades.
    - Sometimes it's a quiet longing for some sort of better personality, usually based on others'. For example, I might meet someone with a sparkly, bubbly personality and think, "Why can't I be like that?" Then I'll meet some serious, silent person with their shit together, and I'll be like, "That's so badass...why can't I be like that?" Totally different character traits, and I envy them both. A lot of my thinking revolves around the phrase, "Why can't I have...?"
    - Sometimes (usually) it's against everything I've perceived as "missing out" on in life--"they have friendship and cameraderie", "She's so beautiful", "why did everyone else get invited to the party except me?", and that's when you get that Hateful Envy. I'll go on tirades against everything I perceive as missing out on--in sanctimonious terms. "I hate how women dress like sluts" = "She's prettier than me and no guy would ever look at me if she were standing next to me and therefore it's a threat that I need to chop down with vehemence". I'd have hated to admit it was envy before I figured out I was a 4, but that's exactly right. Not gonna lie about it.
    - Sometimes it's an enhanced awareness of haves and have-nots. "Why do they have everything served on a golden platter while I'm working minimum wage and can't even afford to pay for food???" *wants to line people up and shoot them*
    - And sometimes, it's just a sort of restlessness, a constant looking over the horizon for something better, not finishing what I start, and then remaining unfulfilled. (I entertained 7 for awhile because of this pronounced tendency in me). I sometimes wake up from dreams and feel painfully wistful that real life can't be that awesome. I long for that otherworld.
    - Calling myself a loser for not having an exciting enough life. Boredom + me = not good.
    - Heart-rending, gutting feelings of deprivation for my lack of a love/sex life. Hatred towards "normal" people who can go about this business so easily (i.e., everyone).

    Most of these are totally private thoughts that no one else really sees. If they do, it's because I'm ranting about it, not whining about it.

    Anyway, I just made that sound like I totally suck. Sometimes I even think I do, but objectively speaking, I don't suck really. None of that shit ever stopped me from leading a semi-interesting life (even if it didn't always seem that way at the time). Sure I lack friends and lovers, but I've still traveled the world, met world leaders, had internships, worked on community activism, written blogs, gotten a degree, spoken publicly, punched people, and have plans for doing more awesome stuff in the future. That's actually what I wanted to discuss:

    You can have ridiculously overpowering downswings when you're a 4, but despite it all (and this only comes from years of studying the enneagram) I think in most ways I'm a relatively normally functioning human being. I feel separate from human society, I feel like a freak, but I'm not nearly as pathetic and helpless as most descriptions would seem to suggest.
    - I'm not clinically depressed. I have positive emotions sometimes. I've never cut myself. I don't lie around moaning about how I'm a poor misunderstood lil artist who's too special to work in an office or anything. (LOL bad stereotypes)
    - Most of my fantasy life is, as others have alluded to, are a form of self-entertainment when I'm alone. My fantasies are EPIC, and if they ever find a way to convert thoughts to images on a television screen, I'll become a famous filmmaker.
    - I CAN COPE WITH LIFE. I forget boring details like paying bills and cleaning my house, but that usually resolves itself when the stress becomes great enough that tertiary and inferior functions start showing themselves enough to get shit done. I feel competent enough, by and large. Not gonna get crushed.
    - I CAN COPE WITH REALITY. Fantasies are fun, but I'm firmly vested in "the real world" and all it's problems. I consider myself a pragmatic realist in many ways (I can only blame my 8 and 6 fixes for this one; not sure why an xNFP 4w5 would think of herself this way).
    - I hold down a job, go grocery shopping, play video games, travel, feed my cat, draw pictures, read the news, learn foreign languages, and other markers of being a marginally functional citizen. Sometimes I find this stuff boring, but I'm not so pathetic I need some knight in shiny armor to save me. LOL.
    - At my best, I can work magic, pull off spectacular things, and convert things into something greater. I don't know why 4s never get the credit for this--this is usually associated with 7s.

    Most of my life is just like that of people of other types, actually. The neuroses well up every now and again, and they shape the way I orient towards fellow humans...but I think type 4 is a valid psychology that defends against the world as well as any of the other types.

  6. #36
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    I get up.

    I have mixed emotions when the news comes on during breakfast. Decline the broadcasts scream! Thus I fear decline within myself as it is not wise to be in a house crumbling around you. It is broken beyond repair and no solutions abound.

    I reflect that I still live with my parents. Not my fault I say to myself. After all, the migration to a new abode would be a headache and the expenses would eat away at body and soul. My savings are my only assets and the one tool to provide tangible security so I can continue to explore without the pestilence of the world enroaching upon and suffocating the self. Despite this shame ticks within me; the revolutions of its clockface short so the horrible shame waxes and wanes like the tides with the oscillations providing little peace and stability.

    On the bus to work I concern myself with whether I am to get to my destination on time. For what does it matter? Why do I care? Sure, I aim for B but B is not my destination. Only the future is my destination and it neglects to show me the direction. I struggle to run to the bus stop on time but it is not enough effort to sort out my life.

    At work the emotions run riot, the neuroticism swirls in storm clouds across the acidic, sesolate landscape. Less patience than the day before, one more bridge burnt with my latest piece of drama and the candle wicks of patience and tolerance burning ever shorter.

    On my lunch break I dream. The perfect way to spend an imperfect era. This is a gift from my employers; thirty minutes to wander and spread my wings outside. It is spent well. Ironic that the best produce comes from this time of limited opportunities with time of better opportunities wasted instead.

    On the way home it is full speed ahead. Why? Arriving home ten minutes earlier will not grant salvation. The only master of my evening is me and I do not work it as a machine to build mountains in minutes.

    My evening dies and I am reborn anew the next day. But I am no phoenix, just a man who rots away in body and soul. In the first step there was aches, in the second and third there will be wrinkles and grey hairs. In my soul vices creep in and the voice of abstinence seek to wrestle the reins more and more. There won't be order anytime soon.

    I envy others who have that what I lack. The wings to fly above the rat race, the scent to obscure the shit one must wade through and the mind to redesign the maze we scurry mindlesslt about in. I hope that as I become "less" the hole is being conquered by bridges so I may stand as decay or even death takes me and ascend into legend. But by the day and night there is despair as there is still not yet enough. When will it bloom?

    I have one bullet, one shot, one chance to hit my target and reach fulfilment. I aim the sniper rifle but do I shoot? Do I dare when a miss means that I am doomed to mediocrity and insignificance? Do I wait until I am ready and hope I do not miss the chance to shoot? Even with a perfect aim can I deliver a perfect shot? Do I have the capacity? Or must I suffer a death where I become someone else to take the shot but lose myself in the process?

    I have one idea for a novel, a bag of distractions and procrastinations and a world I must either shun or learn to love. But neither I can decide upon. Both have their virtues and vices yet both insist I have the good and the bad.

    That is my life as an enneagram 4. Death will one day be at the gates and if I were to give birth to a legacy he will spare it from oblivion until at least another day.

  7. #37
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanjuro View Post
    - Sometimes (usually) it's against everything I've perceived as "missing out" on in life--"they have friendship and cameraderie", "She's so beautiful", "why did everyone else get invited to the party except me?", and that's when you get that Hateful Envy. I'll go on tirades against everything I perceive as missing out on--in sanctimonious terms. "I hate how women dress like sluts" = "She's prettier than me and no guy would ever look at me if she were standing next to me and therefore it's a threat that I need to chop down with vehemence". I'd have hated to admit it was envy before I figured out I was a 4, but that's exactly right. Not gonna lie about it.
    - Sometimes it's an enhanced awareness of haves and have-nots. "Why do they have everything served on a golden platter while I'm working minimum wage and can't even afford to pay for food???" *wants to line people up and shoot them*
    - And sometimes, it's just a sort of restlessness, a constant looking over the horizon for something better, not finishing what I start, and then remaining unfulfilled. (I entertained 7 for awhile because of this pronounced tendency in me). I sometimes wake up from dreams and feel painfully wistful that real life can't be that awesome. I long for that otherworld.
    I resonate with this. This feeling of 'why can't I have a bit of normalcy?' I moved 13 times growing up and went to multiple middle and high schools. I never felt like I belonged and I was picked on for not belonging- for being new and not a part of the group. I remember asking myself why I couldn't have friends and a real consistent home like everyone else did. It felt so unfair. Why can't I be cool? Why can't I be good enough to be on the dance team? Am I weird? Am I marked as some sort of strange being? Everyone had what I desired for so much-just to be a part... and I was jealous.

    The only way I'm able to work through the intense envy I can feel (why can't I go on awesome adventures, why aren't I married, why don't I have a job I love?) is to see something in myself that I want or something that I want to change about myself- set the goal and go for it. When I'm succeeding with my own goals then I'm not watching everyone else and comparing my life to theirs and suddenly it doesn't matter anymore. I even love my differences now because it allows me to have different perspectives and I'm able to approach life in a way that best fits me.

    I covet and envy too much. That's something that pisses me off. That will probably be the next goal for myself to conquer.
    I'm done taking your comment and running into the horizon with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Sanjuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    I resonate with this. This feeling of 'why can't I have a bit of normalcy?' I moved 13 times growing up and went to multiple middle and high schools. I never felt like I belonged and I was picked on for not belonging- for being new and not a part of the group. I remember asking myself why I couldn't have friends and a real consistent home like everyone else did. It felt so unfair. Why can't I be cool? Why can't I be good enough to be on the dance team? Am I weird? Am I marked as some sort of strange being? Everyone had what I desired for so much-just to be a part... and I was jealous.
    I laughed when I read this, because I've asked myself these things so many times. Sometimes I feel proud of stuff, thinking my life has in some ways been a lot more interesting than other peoples'....sometimes I'm tearing my hair out asking YTF I can't just fit in and go with the groove the way others all seem to. Like I've traveled all across the world, walked across a desert, and met my hero...yet I've never had a boyfriend and totally missed my college experience somehow. Better...or worse? Just different.

    The only way I'm able to work through the intense envy I can feel (why can't I go on awesome adventures, why aren't I married, why don't I have a job I love?) is to see something in myself that I want or something that I want to change about myself- set the goal and go for it. When I'm succeeding with my own goals then I'm not watching everyone else and comparing my life to theirs and suddenly it doesn't matter anymore. I even love my differences now because it allows me to have different perspectives and I'm able to approach life in a way that best fits me.
    I like your strategy. It's one I've adopted in recent years--as a strong 5-winger, this was somewhat difficult to do. I felt like a sell out, changing myself. But, I'm so glad I did! It's helped me to grow immeasurably as a person and has helped me to see new horizons. And, I haven't sold out, I've done everything on my own terms.

    I covet and envy too much. That's something that pisses me off. That will probably be the next goal for myself to conquer.
    I'm done taking your comment and running into the horizon with it.
    Thanks! It was interesting to read! Good luck on conquering your own worst habit there. You have my full support and admiration!

  9. #39
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    @highlander

    I'm healthier than I used to be so I feel less in the grip of four and notice more the positive things about the type- the transcendent power of beauty in even the most minor of things and the ability to use pain/ negative experiences to transform. That said, contentment remains elusive. But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Frustration encourages me to strive. In other words, melancholy/ fantasizing/ envy can either be the rock around your neck or the life preserver.

    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    When I'm succeeding with my own goals then I'm not watching everyone else and comparing my life to theirs and suddenly it doesn't matter anymore.
    Yes. Although for myself I would phrase it more as- When I write then I'm not wallowing in my precious hell of being a tragic person who could have been a writer of something meaningful, but instead is nothing. When I write I don't become ensnared by the 'what ifs', I just do.

    I think for fours the secret is to move into active verbs.

  10. #40
    Senior Member autumnandtherain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    As stated before by the others in this thread, I too feel somewhat stunted in my ability to 'do' stuff in real life. Things need to be mulled over, feel right, investigated and fit into a fantasy before executed. And that execution always somehow seems to butcher the dream anyways

    I too feel that my skillset isnt exactly useful to this world, and especially not in an economic sense which leads to dreaming, fantasizing and wistfulness. I think many of us are probably not aware that envy is something we definitely struggle with as it doesnt present in that seething, rage type of envy. It is more in that sighing it is what it is-kind of way, which promptly launches you into yet another fantasy world where things are just right.

    I remember talking to a friend who was in love with someone. Unlike anything she had ever felt before. And she couldn't explain why but it felt...'right'. Even if the situation itself was less than ideal and they still had a long way to sort things out. There was just this sense of...this is it. It was something she could not explain to her friends and family, she could not logically support or even find the words for to describe.

    When I told her that that feeling is something that I seek for in *everything*, from the smallest little detail in life to the biggest life events - that I felt incapable of moving forward unless I had that feeling of 'right', she finally understood. As great as it is to feel 'right' and find that right puzzle piece, the search is maddening. You have no parameters to narrow the search, no way to explain to others what you are looking for or why it is that crucial and you have no way of moving forward without that right piece in place. And life demands a *lot* of pieces in place to make it work right. There is just a feeling of right and wrong to judge whatever comes your way. And there is a lot of pieces that almost fit, but not quite.

    *warning, lyrical 4*

    In a way, I search for true love in every aspect of my life. It is a never-ending quest. And a lonely one, as friends, family and the outside world do not understand the yardstick you are working as there are so many other workable and more practical solutions to use in order to obtain your material goal. And unfortunately, there is no way to explain to them why it just does not work for you.

    /lament.
    I have yet to read all the posts in this thread, but this pretty much describes it.

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