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  1. #1
    Senior Member Cloud of Thunder's Avatar
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    Default A Key Difference Between 3's and 4's?

    At the risk of being over-simplistic, what do you all think of this as a potential difference between 3's and 4's?

    3's are focused on and celebrate human strength and potential, while 4's are focused on human frailty and vulnerability.

  2. #2
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Sounds pretty good to me.

    I wonder what that means for 3w4s and 4w3s. The two ideas are at odds with one another.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #3
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I'm 4w5 (not 3), but having dated a 3w4 & seen my experience echoed in type descriptions, I find this to be a huge difference:

    3s, over all, have a positive self-image. 4s, over all, have a negative self-image.
    Do not take this to mean 3s are always happy or always feel good about themselves, nor that 4s never have any confidence or are always depressive.

    The 3w4 I speak of was much like this description:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/2007/09/type-3.html
    May be slightly less image-conscious or project an image that is more implicit and subtle. 4 wing brings a degree of introversion. May measure themselves more by their creations, artistic or social. Tend to compete with themselves first more than with other people. High side brings the motivation and ability to work on oneself. May accomplish everything they set out to do materially, then embark on a path of self-analysis. Artistic explorations or teaching possible. Will still like a challenge, but thoughtful, intuitive or humanistic concerns of prime interest. The low side of this wing can bring a haunted, self-tormented quality or a haughty, competitive pretentiousness. Might be snobs or accuse critics of being too plebian to appreciate them. Cool, hard shell. In private, can lapse into Fourish self-questioning and melodrama. Instability and moodiness can be factors. Unrealistic grandiosity.
    I think 3w4s & 4w3s can both self-sabotage the very achievements they make to reach their desired image, but 3s don't seem to see their own hand in it. 3s seem to see themselves as victims of others' ambitions & envies (projection!), and 4s tend to feel the problem is inherent within them (internalize more - too much). So for 3s, the positive self-image can become a delusion in the face of failure, seeing themselves as sabotaged or whatever - this brings a moody self-pitying & sense of being unfairly misunderstood associated with 4s. But the problem is usually seen as outside oneself which is why a gap between their self-image & the way they really are can be more apparent to other people.

    Whereas 4s often have a negative self-image even in the face of success - they may diminish its meaning as shallow or not authentic to who they are, and a positive self-view can make them feel delusional. A positive self-view often looks elitist because it still requires some kind of devaluation from others for the 4 to feel it as authentic - it's somehow still evidence of not "fitting", and then the 4 laments being different. So when 4s self-sabotage, it is felt as a sign of their own defectiveness, or perhaps even felt as a sacrifice they must make to keep integrity. So the self is seen as the problem, essentially, even when coupled with some resentment towards the outer world.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #4
    brainheart
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    I've read that threes fear failure while fours fear success. I think that fits well with what was posted above.

  5. #5
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    3s would rather be human, 4s would rather be a demon or angel.

  6. #6
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    3s are more concerned about the eyes of others.

    i work with a young 3. i find her to be very check-list-y.
    always trying to figure out the 'right' formula to
    do something. i do find her absolutely delightful,
    her focus and determination and in taking direction.

    sometimes she gets so focused in trying to achieve
    something, she really forgets about herself, i find
    that she struggles when i ask for something a little
    more "organic"---something from her own insights,
    but perhaps that has to do with her age and experience
    as she doesn't really know who she is.
    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

  7. #7
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmhmm View Post
    3s are more concerned about the eyes of others.
    sort of, but all heart types are noticeably concerned with the eyes of others. I think the difference lies in their response to others expectation.

    3s:
    "you want me to do that? okay, I'll do it better than anyone else"
    then they go out and do it, feeling like a rock star until they fail, usually either because of expectations that are too high or because of an external event they couldn't control. at which point they crash and burn, feeling like shit about themselves and devolving into a 9-ish apathy "what's the point?". 3s are human doing, they look out into the world and ask "what do I need to do to be valuable and respectable?" (key word respected. being liked/loved has more to do with 2 and being accepted has more to do with 4 and 6). depending on the wing, instinctual variant, MBTI and other factors, what specifically the 3 will do takes many forms. for example, an ESTP 3w2 So/Sx might think "I need to display my athletic ability and get the crowd cheering for me to be respected" while an ENTJ 3w4 Sp/Sx might think "I need a track record of consistent business profits to be respectable". notice how the former is more concerned with "what do people think of me?" while the latter is more concerned with "where is the hard evidence that I am respectable?". contrary to what descriptions would have you believe, 3s have a fair amount of variation in terms of how much they care about what other people think of them. some 3s are more concerned with far reaching social prestige while others are more concerned with meeting objective metrics. the former is more dependent on the opinions of others while the latter is more like to say "you don't like me? psh! whatever, my track record proves that I'm the best" (the latter will still need respect, just not from as many people)

    4s: "just because I'm not like that doesn't mean I'm not valuable!!!"
    after said rejection, the 4 goes off and creates their own image. if the 3 thinks "I need to do ___ to be valuable" the 4 thinks "I need to be ___ to be valuable". deep down, the 4 feels defective, broken and ugly and, secretly, they really want people to accept them and tell them they're not. because they feel this way, they're not likely to pursue conventional means of acclaim because they don't feel like they're up to it. think of it like the middle born child who feels ignored and tossed aside by their parents who favor the first born (who often exhibits 3-ish, 8-ish and/or 1-ish qualities. the last born is often similar to enneagram 7. the child everyone spoils and pampers who thinks the world revolves around him, pouts narcissistically when he doesn't get his way and is a loose cannon less concerned with the game of winning mom and dad's affection like the older siblings). feeling they can't compete with their more confident, "perfect" elder sibling, the middle child struggles to find their own voice, moving off in an opposite direction in an attempt to carve out their niche for which their parents will appreciate them. when said attempt fails, 4s disintegrate to 2, demanding that everyone love and accept them for the bizarre, often grotesque image they've crafted for themselves.


    i work with a young 3. i find her to be very check-list-y.
    always trying to figure out the 'right' formula to
    do something. i do find her absolutely delightful,
    her focus and determination and in taking direction.

    sometimes she gets so focused in trying to achieve
    something, she really forgets about herself, i find
    that she struggles when i ask for something a little
    more "organic"---something from her own insights,
    but perhaps that has to do with her age and experience
    as she doesn't really know who she is.
    this part is accurate
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    3s would rather be human, 4s would rather be a demon or angel.
    This is actually a really good right brained answer.

    4's enjoy extremes of intensity similar to 8's,
    3's are more consistent in their level of intensity.

    3's are, in my experience, sensitive to lack of general enthusiasm, while 4's usually don't care.

    In the work place, I'm always flirting with the 4's and I'm always hating the 3's for being jealous cockblockers while I'm flirting with the 4's. Other 4's usually view my flirting with someone else as a challenge and join in or step out. With 3's, they almost always turn it into an issue where I could get fired.
    /wrists

  9. #9
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    This is actually a really good right brained answer.
    4's enjoy extremes of intensity similar to 8's,
    3's are more consistent in their level of intensity.
    is that so?



    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    SEE-Fi
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    Motivation: Dark Worker
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    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  10. #10
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Lets say we go to extremes of intensity for the feel/beauty/art of it. You guys do it for productivity's sake

    And yes, I do think we go a little further and a little more crazy.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

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