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  1. #1
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    Default Nines and Psycho-Spiritual Laziness

    I have no clue what the hell this means.


    I hope someone can elaborate.

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    It means that an unhealthy or immature nine would resist spiritual and emotional growth. Sort of like sticking their head in the sand. Deny things are happening. Easier to stay with the status quo or what they're comfortable with, anything that doesn't make them feel too much or have to deal with ugly feelings, or past relationships (just as an example) they aren't clear about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I have no clue what the hell this means.


    I hope someone can elaborate.
    Where did you hear that?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Where did you hear that?

    I've seen about four users on the forum apply the term to nines. It originated from a book on Enneagram of Naranjo's.


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It means that an unhealthy or immature nine would resist spiritual and emotional growth. Sort of like sticking their head in the sand. Deny things are happening. Easier to stay with the status quo or what they're comfortable with, anything that doesn't make them feel too much or have to deal with ugly feelings, or past relationships (just as an example) they aren't clear about.

    I suppose it's something I cannot relate to, though I do actively work to develop my normal mind in hopes of eliminating negative emotion - anger, fear, sadness, etc. That's probably why I find the term kind of stupid, I don't know any nines that are "psycho-spiritually lazy", unless you want to apply the term to any person who doesn't run around slicing their wrists or contemplating god all day or something.


    (perhaps my response is slightly facile, I really don't have much to go off of that correlates with this line of thought, so it's hard to grow anything from it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post




    I suppose it's something I cannot relate to, though I do actively work to develop my normal mind in hopes of eliminating negative emotion - anger, fear, sadness, etc. That's probably why I find the term kind of stupid, I don't know any nines that are "psycho-spiritually lazy", unless you want to apply the term to any person who doesn't run around slicing their wrists or contemplating god all day or something.


    (perhaps my response is slightly facile, I really don't have much to go off of that correlates with this line of thought, so it's hard to grow anything from it)
    I do. I know one nine who is psycho-spiritually lazy, even if he's not "body lazy".

    I think even healthier nines show this from time to time because of their avoidance, it's something that goes hand and hand with their detachment from their anger, and when they get to a point where they are numbed.

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    Also it's not about slicing your wrists or causing scenes. It's about avoiding pain, avoiding confrontation, avoiding growing emotionally and spiritually through things that might seem difficult or uncomfortable; it's a form of denial, "I don't know what you're talking about," and it's easier if it just goes away and gets swept under the rug.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I do. I know one nine who is psycho-spiritually lazy, even if he's not "body lazy".

    I think even healthier nines show this from time to time because of their avoidance, it's something that goes hand and hand with their detachment from their anger, and when they get to a point where they are numbed.

    Also it's not about slicing your wrists or causing scenes. It's about avoiding pain, avoiding confrontation, avoiding growing emotionally and spiritually through things that might seem difficult or uncomfortable; it's a form of denial, "I don't know what you're talking about," and it's easier if it just goes away and gets swept under the rug.

    I was going to add that I don't know many people to begin with, so my data pool of potentially psycho-spiritually lazy nines is quite low, lol.

    Avoidance is something I have a habit of doing. For example, I've got about three very close friends I've been ignoring for two or so months now. I really don't know why I do this. I like being alone, having others around me weighs heavily on my mind or something. Finally I answered my friends call two nights ago (and by that I mean I called him back seven hours after he called) and we chatted as if I haven't been ignoring him for forever. I think, having known me since we were both 8, he's come to understand my character.

    Like, if I had it my way, I would live at the top of a mountain with a huge city below me, and I could just bike into town anytime I was feeling lonely. It is inevitable I will get saturated with emotion, and I'll peddle back up to my hidey-hole to do god knows what for a year.

    I don't know if this is in the same line of avoidance and being "psycho-spiritually lazy", but.... hm.

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    I'll grow when I have to. I put it off as long as possible because it's such a pain in the rear. When I do address stuff, I try to be thorough about it so I don't have to do it again soon.

    The Possum Lodge Oath and Man's Prayer were kind of made for people like me.

    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I was going to add that I don't know many people to begin with, so my data pool of potentially psycho-spiritually lazy nines is quite low, lol.

    Avoidance is something I have a habit of doing. For example, I've got about three very close friends I've been ignoring for two or so months now. I really don't know why I do this. I like being alone, having others around me weighs heavily on my mind or something. Finally I answered my friends call two nights ago (and by that I mean I called him back seven hours after he called) and we chatted as if I haven't been ignoring him for forever. I think, having known me since we were both 8, he's come to understand my character.

    Like, if I had it my way, I would live at the top of a mountain with a huge city below me, and I could just bike into town anytime I was feeling lonely. It is inevitable I will get saturated with emotion, and I'll peddle back up to my hidey-hole to do god knows what for a year.

    I don't know if this is in the same line of avoidance and being "psycho-spiritually lazy", but.... hm.
    No, I don't think so. Average and high level nines are zen like creatures with a great deal of peaceful spiritual development, their idea of holy love is a kind of agape thing, but without that deep need to "help others" compulsively like a 2; the 9 would help a stranger, but probably not form big organizations to constantly interact with them face to face.

    I too could probably live in some kind of natural retreat setting, but I'm not sure I'd actually want to live in absolute solitude for more than a week or so.

    I am an E6 and we integrate at 9, so a lot of my own growth behaviors include peaceful acceptance (rather than reactivity) and spiritual growth zen activities that are built in a solid sense of inner self rather than dependence on a group identity or relationship.

    I really love 9s, they are some of my favorite people, though as a 6 its difficult for me to understand why they wouldn't be more passionate about their loyalties or beliefs in some circumstances, like I feel like they're being too passive.

    The person I am speaking of really resists active growth in terms of being able to feel and have whole relationships with others. It's like he desires to not be alone, he really wants his idea of Holy Love (especially as an sx dom 9) but he's going to keep ending up the same way as long as he keeps avoiding dealing with things emotionally, as long as he keeps shutting down on people, as long as he keeps covering up anything unpleasant with an icy, sarcastic deadness covered in body-centric activities like over-exercising, drinking too much, putting over-emphasis on external appearances of sophistication or self-control (he is a w1 and sx/so)...if he'd just open his heart and deal with things, he'd change dramatically, for the better, and it would save his own relationships, but apparently that's just too much for him, even at 30.

    Interestingly, though, through my relationship with him I have experienced tremendous growth in terms of my spiritual development and recognizing my reactivity and other things. I was really hoping that he experienced something similar, but if anything, he appears to have gotten worse, just going on blindly from one scenario or relationship to the next, like lather, rinse, repeat...lather, rinse, repeat.

    Unconscious, basically.

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    Healthy Levels
    Level 1 (At Their Best): Become self-possessed, feeling autonomous and fulfilled: have great equanimity and contentment because they are present to themselves. Paradoxically, at one with self, and thus able to form more profound relationships. Intensely alive, fully connected to self and others.

    Level 2: Deeply receptive, accepting, unselfconscious, emotionally stable and serene. Trusting of self and others, at ease with self and life, innocent and simple. Patient, unpretentious, good-natured, genuinely nice people.

    Level 3: Optimistic, reassuring, supportive: have a healing and calming influence—harmonizing groups, bringing people together: a good mediator, synthesizer, and communicator.

    Average Levels
    Level 4: Fear conflicts, so become self-effacing and accommodating, idealizing others and "going along" with their wishes, saying "yes" to things they do not really want to do. Fall into conventional roles and expectations. Use philosophies and stock sayings to deflect others.

    Level 5: Active, but disengaged, unreflective, and inattentive. Do not want to be affected, so become unresponsive and complacent, walking away from problems, and "sweeping them under the rug." Thinking becomes hazy and ruminative, mostly comforting fantasies, as they begin to "tune out" reality, becoming oblivious. Emotionally indolent, unwillingness to exert self or to focus on problems: indifference.

    Level 6: Begin to minimize problems, to appease others and to have "peace at any price." Stubborn, fatalistic, and resigned, as if nothing could be done to change anything. Into wishful thinking, and magical solutions. Others frustrated and angry by their procrastination and unresponsiveness.

    Unhealthy Levels
    Level 7: Can be highly repressed, undeveloped, and ineffectual. Feel incapable of facing problems: become obstinate, dissociating self from all conflicts. Neglectful and dangerous to others.

    Level 8: Wanting to block out of awareness anything that could affect, them, they dissociate so much that they eventually cannot function: numb, depersonalized.

    Level 9: They finally become severely disoriented and catatonic, abandoning themselves, turning into shattered shells. Multiple personalities possible. Generally corresponds to the Schizoid and Dependent personality disorders.
    Somewhere around level 5, psycho-spiritual laziness sets in. At level 4 the 9 is average and may be avoidant or sometimes too passive, but at least they aren't avoiding reflection, sinking into fantasies, though they may seem kind of, er, shallow or slightly unreal to more "authentic" people.

    I think an average level 9 is actually the embodiment of what most people accuse ISFJs of being: conventional roles, using platitudes to appease others, I think most 9s are somewhere around a level 4.

    I know a 9 around level 2-3 and she can be absolutely amazing, so much so that it's shocking when she sinks down to more average levels and starts to just "go along" with things or is being overly passive. She's really done the work on herself, though, she's a fantastic peace maker, and what most people think of when they think of a new age hippie or a social worker. It's obvious that what she is genuinely comes from inside herself, and she really tries to relate to people, see all sides, and talk things out without demonizing people. She doesn't "avoid" too much, she just really is a fairly peaceful person, though of course she has her moments like all other human beings.

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