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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Well, a little history of my experience with Enneagram: The first I'd heard of it was in college, I had a kind of quirky psychology teacher that had the entire class take a test of her own devising. I didn't really think much of it - I don't think I was much into self-exploration at the age, I hadn't really evolved a "meta-view" of things as I believe I now have - and I tested as an eight. I'd purged the memory from my mind shortly thereafter, up until about my experience with this site. I was in a fairly unhealthy state and tested six my first go. I read the profile and hated everything about it (lol), which perhaps reflected my internal state, so I identified at some weird "this is why I hate myself" level. I didn't investigate much into any other type, being primarily focused with MBTI and function analysis. Then one day months later everyone in Vent was taking Enneagram tests so I did as well. I tested nine, which was weird - I had never considered it even remotely an option, I kind of glossed over it when looking around, as I still do with twos. But the first time I read a profile I related so strongly, it was as if all my strengths and weaknesses were ripped from me and put to paper.
    Interesting. You hated 6 in yourself - in many cases, I would say this indicates a disintegration point or finding your core type, because enneagram will point out what we hate in ourselves. However, 6 descriptions are especially bad and most of them turn me off, and part of my 'typing process' was ruling out every other possibility (my 8 core was hard to accept and I was in denial mode though it was staring me in the face); and I found it so hard to rule out 6 because it was so difficult to even understand what the type was about. Which descriptions did you read? ... Over time, through many descriptions, I've gathered a better understanding of the type, but to me it seems so complex. So I hesitate to say that because you've seen something you hate in the 6 descriptions, it's a necessary indicator - but it could be. I know I had that kind of reaction to 8 descriptions initially. 6 did not stand out to me until I tried to understand it; but 8 immediately stood out as the worst, most terrible, cruel type, and I thought that every asshole who ever broke my heart, hurt me, acted selfishly, etc; was an 8. Of course, all I was really seeing was the asshole inside of myself. In retrospect, none of those other people were 8s. =/

    Enneagram is interesting like that. Anyway, I'd say that if you had such a reaction to type 6 it's worth pursuing - it could be a strong fix, your core, your disintegration point, or your integration point. I'm looking forward to your type-me video! Are you going to do a written thread too?

    Since, I've done further analysis - can this be interpreted as me being a healthy-minded six? Is it reflective of my interest in Buddhist philosophy and how I intend to grow as a person, but "me" being something else altogether? I'm really not sure, to be honest. I casually mull the possibilities, but I'm fairly set on thinking myself a 9w8. As you've stated, I think the eight wing (which is indicative even in my early testing, in college) really 'grounds' me out, gives me a strong sense of self, however you'd like to put it.
    I think if you idealize type 9 as you have explained, and you had this reaction to 6, then core 6 is a good possibility. 9 is the integration point of 6. The testing as 8 is also very common for 6's because they are both reactive types and can have similar "bold" behavior.

    Don't mind being presumptuous, it's to only way to properly critique a situation
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    I like the attitude & open-mindedness.


    Fives, eights and nines are my three biggest conceptual favorites of the Enneagram. I see them all as quite intertwined conceptually (though I haven't done much investigation into that, just a hunch).
    Interesting - I'd love to hear more about this? I have some thoughts about 5 & 8 myself, but I don't know how "objective" they really are because 8 is my core and 5 is my disintegration point as well as my head-fix. Where does 9 come in?

    I planned on going into detail about myself, how I am, but I will make a 'type me' video soon, I think. If I do, I'll tag you, it'd be cool if you could give me your thoughts!
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    Interesting. You hated 6 in yourself - in many cases, I would say this indicates a disintegration point or finding your core type, because enneagram will point out what we hate in ourselves. However, 6 descriptions are especially bad and most of them turn me off, and part of my 'typing process' was ruling out every other possibility (my 8 core was hard to accept and I was in denial mode though it was staring me in the face); and I found it so hard to rule out 6 because it was so difficult to even understand what the type was about. Which descriptions did you read? ... Over time, through many descriptions, I've gathered a better understanding of the type, but to me it seems so complex. So I hesitate to say that because you've seen something you hate in the 6 descriptions, it's a necessary indicator - but it could be. I know I had that kind of reaction to 8 descriptions initially. 6 did not stand out to me until I tried to understand it; but 8 immediately stood out as the worst, most terrible, cruel type, and I thought that every asshole who ever broke my heart, hurt me, acted selfishly, etc; was an 8. Of course, all I was really seeing was the asshole inside of myself. In retrospect, none of those other people were 8s. =/

    Yeah, I don't think I liked them much either... I think of it as ESFJ syndrome, it is really hard to get the essence of the character across without being portrayed in some sort of negative light, for whatever reason - though in reality, it works just swell. I have one six in mind that is my favorite person around, but you wouldn't think so, given my habitual expressions of distaste...

    Very funny, about typing everyone eight lol. I think I was the same way when I first discovered MBTI, I typed ENTP, and everyone was an ENTP - my father, my grandfather, my best friend... lol.


    Are you going to do a written thread too?

    Perhaps, I was thinking of making it a hybrid effort.


    I think if you idealize type 9 as you have explained, and you had this reaction to 6, then core 6 is a good possibility. 9 is the integration point of 6. The testing as 8 is also very common for 6's because they are both reactive types and can have similar "bold" behavior.

    Yes, that is what I was thinking as well. I'll elaborate below, responding to LeaT's post.


    Interesting - I'd love to hear more about this? I have some thoughts about 5 & 8 myself, but I don't know how "objective" they really are because 8 is my core and 5 is my disintegration point as well as my head-fix. Where does 9 come in?

    Perhaps, when ever I do things like this I have to be super amped up for it, otherwise it's a shoddy effort and it really shows through in my quality of work. I'll have it in mind, as a sort of case study I particularly want to explore its extension into the one wing, which I totally intended to include but for whatever reason deleted.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    But how do the motivatios of enneagram 9, the passion being sloth, the holy idea being holy love and so on actually play out in your psyche? How does psychospiritual laziness play out in you, how do you relate to positive outlook, how are you slothful, how does the soul child of 3 manifest?

    Hm.


    I'm very content with about anything that happens. I don't set expectations, and I don't dwell on things that have passed. I have a very near-future oriented mind, I'm constantly thinking, "what do I do now?" but rarely "what will I do then?". I expect I will be able to navigate any obstacle thrown at me when the time comes, and I just kind of live jovially until it happens. Nothing is taken all that seriously, but when the time does come for work, it comes in mass bursts of productivity - I eye a "plateau" to work towards and achieve it, then fall back to lolling about on the flat surface. It is my preferred state, really, to just kind of laze about with few worries of here and there. I live on a whim.

    When I was young, I would have my father tell me I couldn't go somewhere specifically so I wouldn't have to. I hated going places, hated being with people - even my closest friends - but I could not for the life of me give them a simple "no". I felt like a bad person, for not meeting their expectations. Only until recently have I developed a sense of peace with letting people know my true desires, but even then, I have more morphed myself into actually wanting to do these things rather than dream up excuses of why I can't do them. I think of it like getting your balls wet when wading out into water. If you just jump in its not so bad. It's the anticipation of action that has killed me in the past. The concept extends to work, I'm definitely a "yes man", simply because I see the alternative as socially unacceptable. I see assignments as challenges of my character, perhaps, to be taken on and surmounted.

    My best friend once told me I have more shame than anyone he knows. I live as if I'm walking on others' toes, trying to find the places where I'll interfere the least with society. I don't like asking for help, thinking maybe if I do everything for myself I'll grow stronger in my abilities. I relate strongly with the ronin samurai or lone gunslinger concepts, I romanticize a strong individual core. I'm not very good at being "silly" and I'm probably boring in character, kinda rock-ish...

    My interests are lone pursuits. I'm a nerd to the core, I prefer studying quantum physics or playing videogames over just about anything. Most of my hobbies focus around craft, things where I can just kind of let my mind wander as it pleases while I produce something worthwhile. I enjoy the intellectual stimulation I get from recreational drug use, such as marijuana or mushrooms. I feel my scope of thought is expanded from the hard sciences into more 'human' subjects, such as sociology.

    Possibly the largest concept I've been drawn to in life is war, battle, and loss of human life. The latter is what really gets me - seeing figures in the hundreds of thousands, relating it to my tame, worry-free existence and how many have been unfortunate enough to born into something different. I view it as the maximization of human suffering, which sucks, because it is also the one user-generated facet we can all control. I break down during really good war films, usually as the credits roll. I can't remember crying for any other genre of film.



    I don't know how far off base I was for this whole thing, I was just kind of flowing with whatever came to my mind. I also didn't really try to specifically address your probings, I felt artificial trying to force any avenues of thought.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I don't know how far off base I was for this whole thing, I was just kind of flowing with whatever came to my mind. I also didn't really try to specifically address your probings, I felt artificial trying to force any avenues of thought.
    As you noted yourself, you didn't quite answer my questions which ultimately led to your answers not being as meaningful either, not in the sense that I had hoped anyway. There are 9-ish qualities here but it's hard to say if those are core 9 qualities or the result of something else.

    Why didn't you feel like trying to force any avenues of thought and why did it feel artificial?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  4. #24
    Transient Faceless Beauty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    I already posted about this in another thread, but I've been down to health level eight and never experienced quite the "psychospiritual laziness" described here. I was definitely avoidant; I still never lost touch with reality or began to substitute others' views for my own. Didn't avoid reflection at all. It escalated, maybe out of a 1-ish impulse to hold onto myself without having to engage the world. I don't know. I've heard other 9w1s share similar experiences, though.

    and this might sound really egotistical since I'm a 9 myself, but: I'm wondering if 9s are only noted for this "psychospiritual laziness" because they tend to be more in tune with the "psychospiritual" than other types; therefore the obligations they sense (in terms of what, though?*) can be overwhelming to the point that they suppress this awareness to an unusual degree. again, might not apply at all, and if it does, maybe more to 9w1s. my understanding of 9w8s is minimal.

    *obligations in regard to social/relational harmony, emotional health/self-actualization, etc.? I'm not sure what to add to this.
    Hmmmm. I've probably been at about that level of health before. I would still have to agree that being avoidant and depersonalizing falls under the category of psychospiritual laziness, but it's the result of becoming overly dependent on a coping mechanism more than anything else. When you tell yourself that everything doesn't matter, it's so much easier to remove yourself from the situation and remain unaffected. However, when you keep using that as your trump card for dealing with everything, you begin to lose sight of the things that should bother you and you might as well be a walking corpse with no substance. For me, reflection was at an extreme minimum because I didn't see the point or realize that there was a problem to begin with. Rather than adopting the views of others as my own, it seemed to be a better idea to not believe anything after watching what happens to people who believe to strongly in anything (I still do this to an extent but much less now than I did then). I didn't avoid conflict because I didn't want people to hate me, but I avoided it because I didn't see the point in doing it since it wouldn't eradicate this pervading sense of emptiness and nothingness that I experienced.

    As for the spirituality thing, I think I can understand what you're getting at, and it probably manifests in myself as never being completely satiated or fulfilled when I do something, yet not knowing exactly what it is that I am lacking. Now that I've had time to really think about it, when I am not in a mentally sound place, this lack of fulfillment leads to this desire to either just do nothing and fade away, or overindulge until I reach a state of numbness. There is no middle ground, just movement towards one of the two extremes (I'm not sure if this is just me or because I have an 8 wing but I'll include this bit anyway). I'm not sure that 9s are more aware of the psychospiritual, but I could see how it would become overwhelming for them.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Why didn't you feel like trying to force any avenues of thought and why did it feel artificial?

    I didn't want to feel I was simply reinforcing my perception as a nine.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    I didn't want to feel I was simply reinforcing my perception as a nine.
    Why do you assume I would be biased when trying to understand you as a person?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Why do you assume I would be biased when trying to understand you as a person?

    Hmmm. I'm not sure. I find it hard to give meaningful insight to myself, I kind of live externally.


    Okay, for one part, on my being sloth: I've been puzzled how people say they could "not work" in life. I could easily not work for a living. It is somewhat of a dream of mine to invent something that I can be paid royalties off of, maybe bank massively for a few years and set up myself financially for an existence of controlled living. My real goal in life is to do something where I can do nothing apart from what I desire.

    My three soul-child maybe exhibits itself in a work environment. At work, I'm all business. I like to do my job, and like to do it right. I frequently get singled out for my work ethic. I'm 24 and have been promoted to three management positions across three different jobs. I don't like managing, though. It sucks telling people what to do, even though I know what needs to be done. I have failed at these positions because of this.

    I'm also very driven when it comes to interests. In class, I'm very 'hands on'. I participate in discussions frequently, feeling I am maximizing my understanding by probing all the intricacies my mind conjures. I ask a lot of questions, I don't fear being wrong by trying to answer a question publicly, even though sometimes I am WAY off base with my answers. My sister met a boy I once had a class with, he said I got "very into" the class.

    I'm somewhat of a perfectionist with my craft, I like to know every little detail of something to maximize my efficiency and skill. I like knowing more than others, I like being useful, I like being that "go-to" guy people call on when they have problems. A customer, when I was working on his car, called me "Doctor Jon". I don't turn down challenges very frequently, even if I know they are beyond my skill. I see them as opportunities to grow.


    I might be going off-base again. I'll take a little break, lol.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Hmmm. I'm not sure. I find it hard to give meaningful insight to myself, I kind of live externally.


    Okay, for one part, on my being sloth: I've been puzzled how people say they could "not work" in life. I could easily not work for a living. It is somewhat of a dream of mine to invent something that I can be paid royalties off of, maybe bank massively for a few years and set up myself financially for an existence of controlled living. My real goal in life is to do something where I can do nothing apart from what I desire.

    My three soul-child maybe exhibits itself in a work environment. At work, I'm all business. I like to do my job, and like to do it right. I frequently get singled out for my work ethic. I'm 24 and have been promoted to three management positions across three different jobs. I don't like managing, though. It sucks telling people what to do, even though I know what needs to be done. I have failed at these positions because of this.

    I'm also very driven when it comes to interests. In class, I'm very 'hands on'. I participate in discussions frequently, feeling I am maximizing my understanding by probing all the intricacies my mind conjures. I ask a lot of questions, I don't fear being wrong by trying to answer a question publicly, even though sometimes I am WAY off base with my answers. My sister met a boy I once had a class with, he said I got "very into" the class.

    I'm somewhat of a perfectionist with my craft, I like to know every little detail of something to maximize my efficiency and skill. I like knowing more than others, I like being useful, I like being that "go-to" guy people call on when they have problems. A customer, when I was working on his car, called me "Doctor Jon". I don't turn down challenges very frequently, even if I know they are beyond my skill. I see them as opportunities to grow.


    I might be going off-base again. I'll take a little break, lol.
    See, I don't necessarily see anything inherently 9-like in this. It could be many things, but there's competency when you write about your job for example, and it seems 5-ish, but I doubt core 5. I'd suggest to toss up a questionnaire.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    See, I don't necessarily see anything inherently 9-like in this. It could be many things, but there's competency when you write about your job for example, and it seems 5-ish, but I doubt core 5. I'd suggest to toss up a questionnaire.

    I shall, thanks for your input

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faceless Beauty View Post
    Hmmmm. I've probably been at about that level of health before. I would still have to agree that being avoidant and depersonalizing falls under the category of psychospiritual laziness, but it's the result of becoming overly dependent on a coping mechanism more than anything else. When you tell yourself that everything doesn't matter, it's so much easier to remove yourself from the situation and remain unaffected. However, when you keep using that as your trump card for dealing with everything, you begin to lose sight of the things that should bother you and you might as well be a walking corpse with no substance. For me, reflection was at an extreme minimum because I didn't see the point or realize that there was a problem to begin with. Rather than adopting the views of others as my own, it seemed to be a better idea to not believe anything after watching what happens to people who believe to strongly in anything (I still do this to an extent but much less now than I did then). I didn't avoid conflict because I didn't want people to hate me, but I avoided it because I didn't see the point in doing it since it wouldn't eradicate this pervading sense of emptiness and nothingness that I experienced.

    As for the spirituality thing, I think I can understand what you're getting at, and it probably manifests in myself as never being completely satiated or fulfilled when I do something, yet not knowing exactly what it is that I am lacking. Now that I've had time to really think about it, when I am not in a mentally sound place, this lack of fulfillment leads to this desire to either just do nothing and fade away, or overindulge until I reach a state of numbness. There is no middle ground, just movement towards one of the two extremes (I'm not sure if this is just me or because I have an 8 wing but I'll include this bit anyway). I'm not sure that 9s are more aware of the psychospiritual, but I could see how it would become overwhelming for them.
    I relate so much to all of this. And yeah, I would agree that 9s probably aren't any more "aware" than other types and that avoidance is still a form of psychospiritual laziness. Not sure what I was on when I made that post.

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