User Tag List

First 123 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 30

  1. #11
    WALMART
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'll grow when I have to. I put it off as long as possible because it's such a pain in the rear. When I do address stuff, I try to be thorough about it so I don't have to do it again soon.

    The Possum Lodge Oath and Man's Prayer were kind of made for people like me.

    lol, funny. I particularly relate to the bolded. "Waste not, want not."


    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    No, I don't think so. Average and high level nines are zen like creatures with a great deal of peaceful spiritual development, their idea of holy love is a kind of agape thing, but without that deep need to "help others" compulsively like a 2; the 9 would help a stranger, but probably not form big organizations to constantly interact with them face to face.

    I too could probably live in some kind of natural retreat setting, but I'm not sure I'd actually want to live in absolute solitude for more than a week or so.

    I am an E6 and we integrate at 9, so a lot of my own growth behaviors include peaceful acceptance (rather than reactivity) and spiritual growth zen activities that are built in a solid sense of inner self rather than dependence on a group identity or relationship.

    I really love 9s, they are some of my favorite people, though as a 6 its difficult for me to understand why they wouldn't be more passionate about their loyalties or beliefs in some circumstances, like I feel like they're being too passive.

    The person I am speaking of really resists active growth in terms of being able to feel and have whole relationships with others. It's like he desires to not be alone, he really wants his idea of Holy Love (especially as an sx dom 9) but he's going to keep ending up the same way as long as he keeps avoiding dealing with things emotionally, as long as he keeps shutting down on people, as long as he keeps covering up anything unpleasant with an icy, sarcastic deadness covered in body-centric activities like over-exercising, drinking too much, putting over-emphasis on external appearances of sophistication or self-control (he is a w1 and sx/so)...if he'd just open his heart and deal with things, he'd change dramatically, for the better, and it would save his own relationships, but apparently that's just too much for him, even at 30.

    Interestingly, though, through my relationship with him I have experienced tremendous growth in terms of my spiritual development and recognizing my reactivity and other things. I was really hoping that he experienced something similar, but if anything, he appears to have gotten worse, just going on blindly from one scenario or relationship to the next, like lather, rinse, repeat...lather, rinse, repeat.

    Unconscious, basically.

    See, that's the kind of thing that makes me perplexed by the comments of psycho-spiritual laziness, applied as a general blanket term to nines. I also likely have a near-holy perception of conceptual nines, so that doesn't help.

    Yeah, I might get tired of it as well. I was thinking perhaps an apartment building I have converted to look like a cave, so I get the benefits of thinking I'm nestled away while still being able to invite people up for coffee without a ten mile hike being involved.

    Interesting, about this fellow. I wonder how much of it I can relate to, and how much of it... I don't know. Hm. I wonder what those I've experienced relationships with would have to say about me. I don't think it would be so far off, to be honest.

    Edit: Though I've never been one to indulge in those activities as a form of "escapism", except my recent binge of drinking after my life somewhat fell to pieces. That doesn't count.

  2. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    5 sx
    Posts
    506

    Default

    I already posted about this in another thread, but I've been down to health level eight and never experienced quite the "psychospiritual laziness" described here. I was definitely avoidant; I still never lost touch with reality or began to substitute others' views for my own. Didn't avoid reflection at all. It escalated, maybe out of a 1-ish impulse to hold onto myself without having to engage the world. I don't know. I've heard other 9w1s share similar experiences, though.

    and this might sound really egotistical since I'm a 9 myself, but: I'm wondering if 9s are only noted for this "psychospiritual laziness" because they tend to be more in tune with the "psychospiritual" than other types; therefore the obligations they sense (in terms of what, though?*) can be overwhelming to the point that they suppress this awareness to an unusual degree. again, might not apply at all, and if it does, maybe more to 9w1s. my understanding of 9w8s is minimal.

    *obligations in regard to social/relational harmony, emotional health/self-actualization, etc.? I'm not sure what to add to this.

  3. #13
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    I already posted about this in another thread, but I've been down to health level eight and never experienced quite the "psychospiritual laziness" described here. I was definitely avoidant; I still never lost touch with reality or began to substitute others' views for my own. Didn't avoid reflection at all. It escalated, maybe out of a 1-ish impulse to hold onto myself without having to engage the world. I don't know. I've heard other 9w1s share similar experiences, though.

    and this might sound really egotistical since I'm a 9 myself, but: I'm wondering if 9s are only noted for this "psychospiritual laziness" because they tend to be more in tune with the "psychospiritual" than other types; therefore the obligations they sense (in terms of what, though?*) can be overwhelming to the point that they suppress this awareness to an unusual degree. again, might not apply at all, and if it does, maybe more to 9w1s. my understanding of 9w8s is minimal.

    *obligations in regard to social/relational harmony, emotional health/self-actualization, etc.? I'm not sure what to add to this.
    Are you sure you were really that unhealthy? If you didn't stop reflecting or substitute others views for your own, or become paranoid/reactive like a lower-level 6, I am doubtful about you actually being down at an 8 health level.

    9s when unhealthy are out of touch with themselves and emotionally numb.

    I also don't know why you view 9s as "more spiritual" because they are actually a Body type and their relationship is to Anger.

    How is that more spiritual than being a heart or head type?

    Healthy 4s are just as spiritual as 9s, being very introspective and self-aware intuitive, and 2s are deeply giving and altruistic at their highest level.

    I think this egoism is coming from your 1 wing, not from being a 9.

  4. #14
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post

    See, that's the kind of thing that makes me perplexed by the comments of psycho-spiritual laziness, applied as a general blanket term to nines. I also likely have a near-holy perception of conceptual nines, so that doesn't help.
    So you're idealizing 9s? People do that with 4s, too, I've noticed. Blanket negative terms tend to apply to more average or unhealthy levels of any enneagram type.

    Enneagram is essentially about what sucks about us, it's like a system based on what's wrong with you, not what's right with you, so you can work on it. Then of course each type has it's really evolved high health levels.

    Yeah, I might get tired of it as well. I was thinking perhaps an apartment building I have converted to look like a cave, so I get the benefits of thinking I'm nestled away while still being able to invite people up for coffee without a ten mile hike being involved.

    Interesting, about this fellow. I wonder how much of it I can relate to, and how much of it... I don't know. Hm. I wonder what those I've experienced relationships with would have to say about me. I don't think it would be so far off, to be honest.
    That's really disturbing, so probably not. He's very aware of his inner deadness, his ability to shut down and literally not care or become very cold, or like his feelings are trapped inside of him, and the problem is with him is that he doesn't want to deal with it.

    Like any confrontation that might lead to him having a breakthrough or doing some work to actually change sends him running for the hills, or into deep sarcasm mode.

    Unhealthy 9s are emotionally numb and detached from themselves. It hurts other people and fucks up their relationships, and in his case he goes from one relationship to the next, apparently wondering why they all are pretty much the same.

    I was actually aghast to realize how much his current behavior mirrors his past behavior, and how in denial he is about so many things, to a point of pretty much creating a paranoid delusion. I actually began to wonder if he was losing his mind, like if he actually believed what he was saying.

    And each new love interest will feel sorry for him or something. And so it goes. Lather, rinse, repeat. I tried to actually get through to him, which is what makes me different I think than some other people who just stop wasting their energy and just walk away from him or dump him, and he did not care for that AT ALL.

    Edit: Though I've never been one to indulge in those activities as a form of "escapism", except my recent binge of drinking after my life somewhat fell to pieces. That doesn't count.
    Well it does count, actually.

  5. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    5 sx
    Posts
    506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Are you sure you were really that unhealthy? If you didn't stop reflecting or substitute others views for your own, or become paranoid/reactive like a lower-level 6, I am doubtful about you actually being down at an 8 health level.

    9s when unhealthy are out of touch with themselves and emotionally numb.

    I also don't know why you view 9s as "more spiritual" because they are actually a Body type and their relationship is to Anger.

    How is that more spiritual than being a heart or head type?

    Healthy 4s are just as spiritual as 9s, being very introspective and self-aware intuitive, and 2s are deeply giving and altruistic at their highest level.

    I think this egoism is coming from your 1 wing, not from being a 9.
    I was extremely emotionally numb to the point of depersonalization and could barely function. I didn't lose serious touch with reality, but yeah, now that you bring it up there was a significant amount of paranoia.

    I never said that 9s were the most spiritual. I was asking if they might have more "spiritual" interests (at any health level) and tendencies (when healthy) than some other types. I'm aware of the incredible strengths of 4s, 2s, etc. and didn't in any way mean to put the type on a pedestal.

    edit: it also depends on how you interpret the word. personally, I associate it with an ability to be in touch with a wide range of perspectives & an ability to unite seemingly conflicting people/ideas. you have to admit that those are strengths typically associated with mature 9s. it's not that other types don't possess them (i.e. a healthy 4 can exceed an average 9 - or even a healthy 9 - in this area), but it's where 9s tend to excel most, right?

  6. #16
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    25,301

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    I was extremely emotionally numb to the point of depersonalization and could barely function. I didn't lose serious touch with reality, but yeah, now that you bring it up there was a significant amount of paranoia.

    I never said that 9s were the most spiritual. I was asking if they might have more "spiritual" tendencies when healthy than some other types. I'm aware of the incredible strengths of 4s, 2s, etc. and didn't in any way mean to put the type on a pedestal.

    edit: it also depends on how you interpret the word. personally, I associate it with an ability to be in touch with a wide range of perspectives & an ability to unite seemingly conflicting people/ideas. you have to admit that those are strengths typically associated with mature 9s. it's not that other types don't possess them (i.e. a healthy 4 can exceed an average 9 - or even a healthy 9 - in this area), but it's where 9s tend to excel most, right?
    Was it scary to experience depersonalization? I think I've only experienced it when I had panic attacks, I can't fathom it as an on-going state of mind.

    Yes, 9s are the peacemakers when healthy, like 6s are community builders when healthy, they're both ways of uniting people.

    You said that 9s are more in touch with the psychospiritual than other types. I interpreted that to mean that you thought that 9s were more spiritual than other types.

    An average 6 might think that an average 9 is an apathetic person, a person who commits the sin of neglect, allowing bad things to happen by not having strong convictions or getting involved in the community or reacting to events. The average 9 may see the 6 as divisive, overreacting, wasting energy on things they'll never change...HOWEVER, my view of it is that both types are necessary, and that our biggest strength can also be our worst weakness.

    Like the 9s apathy, on a higher level, becomes unifying and peace making, and the 6s strong conviction when at a higher health level can bring positive change into the world.

    The 6 and 9 in question may be equally spiritual. The 6 integrates at 9, because they have to learn to be less divisive in order to lessen fear and anxiety (the 6s relationship is to fear/anxiety) so that they can feel secure in themselves as a whole, unified person who can build communities without having to create an "us vs. them" mentality as much.

    9 integrates at 3. That means that 9 has to get off of its ass and become more ambitious. But in the way of a healthy 3, by living authentically and with qualities of a leader. That's the ideal of the healthy 9, you know, to be a peacemaking leader, almost like they lead without people realizing they're being lead.

  7. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    5 sx
    Posts
    506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Was it scary to experience depersonalization? I think I've only experienced it when I had panic attacks, I can't fathom it as an on-going state of mind.

    Yes, 9s are the peacemakers when healthy, like 6s are community builders when healthy, they're both ways of uniting people.

    You said that 9s are more in touch with the psychospiritual than other types. I interpreted that to mean that you thought that 9s were more spiritual than other types.

    An average 6 might think that an average 9 is an apathetic person, a person who commits the sin of neglect, allowing bad things to happen by not having strong convictions or getting involved in the community or reacting to events. The average 9 may see the 6 as divisive, overreacting, wasting energy on things they'll never change...HOWEVER, my view of it is that both types are necessary, and that our biggest strength can also be our worst weakness.

    Like the 9s apathy, on a higher level, becomes unifying and peace making, and the 6s strong conviction when at a higher health level can bring positive change into the world.

    The 6 and 9 in question may be equally spiritual. The 6 integrates at 9, because they have to learn to be less divisive in order to lessen fear and anxiety (the 6s relationship is to fear/anxiety) so that they can feel secure in themselves as a whole, unified person who can build communities without having to create an "us vs. them" mentality as much.

    9 integrates at 3. That means that 9 has to get off of its ass and become more ambitious. But in the way of a healthy 3, by living authentically and with qualities of a leader. That's the ideal of the healthy 9, you know, to be a peacemaking leader, almost like they lead without people realizing they're being lead.
    Yeah, the only emotion I was in touch with at the time was intense anxiety. This is pretty common, apparently. You know it's happening to you and it's terrifying, and then the anxiety and detachment just feed off of each other. (Essentially the only thing that pulls me out of the cycle is getting off my ass.) Luckily I've never experienced a single panic attack. In some ways I envy those who do; I admire the way they're unable to just "tuck their emotions under the rug" as I think you said in a previous post.

    I appreciate what you've said about 6s. Out of all the types I understand them the least, so it was helpful to see it compared to my own.

  8. #18
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    4w3 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LSI Se
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Also it's not about slicing your wrists or causing scenes. It's about avoiding pain, avoiding confrontation, avoiding growing emotionally and spiritually through things that might seem difficult or uncomfortable; it's a form of denial, "I don't know what you're talking about," and it's easier if it just goes away and gets swept under the rug.
    That's right. Conflict-avoidance *is* psycho-spiritual laziness. That conflict pertains to inner conflict as well, and avoiding it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Like, if I had it my way, I would live at the top of a mountain with a huge city below me, and I could just bike into town anytime I was feeling lonely. It is inevitable I will get saturated with emotion, and I'll peddle back up to my hidey-hole to do god knows what for a year.

    I don't know if this is in the same line of avoidance and being "psycho-spiritually lazy", but.... hm.
    How sure are you that you're a 9? This sounds like avarice (5ish?) to me. You could still be a 9 and of course, the withdrawn triad will share many traits, but I'm just curious how much you've studied enneagram and how sure you are - if you're pretty early in your enneagram journey, it could be worth exploring.

    9s seek mergence with others and the basic fear is loss or separation. 5's have a basic fear of being overwhelmed by the world & others.

    You also have a lot of clarity in your posts and seem to know yourself quite well and break it down into simple terms - it could be the 9w8 "boldness" that you get from an 8 wing, or something to do with MBTI/JCF/Socionics type, but as a general "feeling" - that gives me a 5ish vibe. Of course, I only read a couple of your posts, so I don't mean to be presumptuous, but I just wanted to share my impressions.


    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    lol, funny. I particularly relate to the bolded. "Waste not, want not."
    That is also 5-ish avarice. 5's don't want to have anything extra. They are described as minimalists because the thing they hoard is their own mind, time, and privacy. The idea is, "if nothing of the world is "mine" except for my mind, which I can control, then the world can't overwhelm me or conquer me." It's also an anti-lust reaction against the integration & soul-child 8. 8's want and desire and lust. 5's want not and waste not. If you don't want anything of the real world, then you don't "waste" what is valuable, which is your own self, your time, your mind, your inner resources which you deem valuable. 5s virtue is non-attachment. This is what avarice really is - non-attachment to anything worldly. When a 5 does get attached, he gets overly attached & possessive like an 8 which is what scares him, so he rejects his worldly attachments; even his own body, and just attributes value to the thing he thinks he can control which is his mind.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  9. #19
    WALMART
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    How sure are you that you're a 9? This sounds like avarice (5ish?) to me. You could still be a 9 and of course, the withdrawn triad will share many traits, but I'm just curious how much you've studied enneagram and how sure you are - if you're pretty early in your enneagram journey, it could be worth exploring.

    9s seek mergence with others and the basic fear is loss or separation. 5's have a basic fear of being overwhelmed by the world & others.

    You also have a lot of clarity in your posts and seem to know yourself quite well and break it down into simple terms - it could be the 9w8 "boldness" that you get from an 8 wing, or something to do with MBTI/JCF/Socionics type, but as a general "feeling" - that gives me a 5ish vibe. Of course, I only read a couple of your posts, so I don't mean to be presumptuous, but I just wanted to share my impressions.

    Well, a little history of my experience with Enneagram: The first I'd heard of it was in college, I had a kind of quirky psychology teacher that had the entire class take a test of her own devising. I didn't really think much of it - I don't think I was much into self-exploration at the age, I hadn't really evolved a "meta-view" of things as I believe I now have - and I tested as an eight. I'd purged the memory from my mind shortly thereafter, up until about my experience with this site. I was in a fairly unhealthy state and tested six my first go. I read the profile and hated everything about it (lol), which perhaps reflected my internal state, so I identified at some weird "this is why I hate myself" level. I didn't investigate much into any other type, being primarily focused with MBTI and function analysis. Then one day months later everyone in Vent was taking Enneagram tests so I did as well. I tested nine, which was weird - I had never considered it even remotely an option, I kind of glossed over it when looking around, as I still do with twos. But the first time I read a profile I related so strongly, it was as if all my strengths and weaknesses were ripped from me and put to paper.

    Since, I've done further analysis - can this be interpreted as me being a healthy-minded six? Is it reflective of my interest in Buddhist philosophy and how I intend to grow as a person, but "me" being something else altogether? I'm really not sure, to be honest. I casually mull the possibilities, but I'm fairly set on thinking myself a 9w8. As you've stated, I think the eight wing (which is indicative even in my early testing, in college) really 'grounds' me out, gives me a strong sense of self, however you'd like to put it.


    Don't mind being presumptuous, it's to only way to properly critique a situation


    That is also 5-ish avarice. 5's don't want to have anything extra. They are described as minimalists because the thing they hoard is their own mind, time, and privacy. The idea is, "if nothing of the world is "mine" except for my mind, which I can control, then the world can't overwhelm me or conquer me." It's also an anti-lust reaction against the integration & soul-child 8. 8's want and desire and lust. 5's want not and waste not. If you don't want anything of the real world, then you don't "waste" what is valuable, which is your own self, your time, your mind, your inner resources which you deem valuable. 5s virtue is non-attachment. This is what avarice really is - non-attachment to anything worldly. When a 5 does get attached, he gets overly attached & possessive like an 8 which is what scares him, so he rejects his worldly attachments; even his own body, and just attributes value to the thing he thinks he can control which is his mind.

    Fives, eights and nines are my three biggest conceptual favorites of the Enneagram. I see them all as quite intertwined conceptually (though I haven't done much investigation into that, just a hunch).

    I planned on going into detail about myself, how I am, but I will make a 'type me' video soon, I think. If I do, I'll tag you, it'd be cool if you could give me your thoughts!

  10. #20
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    8w9 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    1,199

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Well, a little history of my experience with Enneagram: The first I'd heard of it was in college, I had a kind of quirky psychology teacher that had the entire class take a test of her own devising. I didn't really think much of it - I don't think I was much into self-exploration at the age, I hadn't really evolved a "meta-view" of things as I believe I now have - and I tested as an eight. I'd purged the memory from my mind shortly thereafter, up until about my experience with this site. I was in a fairly unhealthy state and tested six my first go. I read the profile and hated everything about it (lol), which perhaps reflected my internal state, so I identified at some weird "this is why I hate myself" level. I didn't investigate much into any other type, being primarily focused with MBTI and function analysis. Then one day months later everyone in Vent was taking Enneagram tests so I did as well. I tested nine, which was weird - I had never considered it even remotely an option, I kind of glossed over it when looking around, as I still do with twos. But the first time I read a profile I related so strongly, it was as if all my strengths and weaknesses were ripped from me and put to paper.

    Since, I've done further analysis - can this be interpreted as me being a healthy-minded six? Is it reflective of my interest in Buddhist philosophy and how I intend to grow as a person, but "me" being something else altogether? I'm really not sure, to be honest. I casually mull the possibilities, but I'm fairly set on thinking myself a 9w8. As you've stated, I think the eight wing (which is indicative even in my early testing, in college) really 'grounds' me out, gives me a strong sense of self, however you'd like to put it.


    Don't mind being presumptuous, it's to only way to properly critique a situation
    But how do the motivatios of enneagram 9, the passion being sloth, the holy idea being holy love and so on actually play out in your psyche? How does psychospiritual laziness play out in you, how do you relate to positive outlook, how are you slothful, how does the soul child of 3 manifest?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Youtuber | The Typologist Blog | Redditor | Message me!

Similar Threads

  1. Friends, good company and philosophy/spirituality
    By Survive & Stay Free in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-15-2012, 11:10 AM
  2. Survey thing about Nines and Fours
    By FalseHeartDothKnow in forum Enneagram
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 07-16-2010, 03:54 AM
  3. [E9] Nines and Merging
    By wolfy in forum Enneatypes
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-15-2010, 06:15 PM
  4. Type Nines and "merging" with loved ones...
    By BlackCat in forum Enneagram
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 05-09-2010, 04:49 AM
  5. [E9] Nines and anger/aggression
    By Gerbah in forum Enneatypes
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 04-03-2010, 07:10 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO