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  1. #1
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Default The consequences of over-identifying with the mind

    To preface this, this is meant as part a starting point of discussion of what it means to over-identify with the mind, but also as a way to inform some of the deeper mechanics of the 5 pathology and some of the more neurotic thought patterns pathological detachment can manifest itself as, thought patterns that I think are rarely if ever dicsussed or mentioned, let alone fully understood by those who try to identify whether they are 5s or not. So what does it mean to over-identify with the mind? I think this subject is often sadly misunderstood and unexplored because it does not mean that you're intellectual, it does not mean that you're knowledgeable, it does not mean that you like to understand the world, no, what it truly and genuinely means is that you in fact reject the existence of your physical body in favor of the mind.

    what does it mean to reject one's physical body?
    The result, the consequences of such thinking is neglect of physical needs and a pathological detachment of the body itself. I think it is common for 5s to experience their body as weak and frail, that it requires needs and demands that seem ultimately arbitrary and useless and are in fact more of an obstacle than a help in order to attain omniscience. This theme of rejecting the body is quite common in fiction with strong 5 themes underpinning the story. For example in The Matrix, the mind is clearly depicted as more powerful as the body and is more capable than the body. The body is described as weak and useless and is nowhere near as capable as the mind. This is also reinforced in that all action scenes are actually set in the virtual reality of The Matrix. The idea of virtual reality as a replacement for reality is probably not an idea uncommon for the 5, that if we can make the virtual reality actual reality, then we are gods because we have absolute control and power of our minds, we do not when it comes to our body. It has demands and needs and none of them which we want anything to do with.

    It goes back to avarice and how less is indeed more, that if we can manage on less and getting rid of all that which is seen as too much extra weight, we can manage and sustain ourselves better. This is the projection of the power lust of the 5 who focuses his power on controlling the mind rather than the physical world around him like 8s do. There is therefore an an ultimate frustration with the body - if I can think of all these things with my mind, why can my body do not? In my mind I know how to be a perfect bowler: I understand the theories, the physics, the mechanics, but why can I not in actual reality, make my body act the way my mind tells it to? There's aptly enough, a logical disconnect for the 5 between mind and body.

    This rejection of the body is also expressed sexually in that 5s are rarely if ever going to be sexually active or pursue sexual activities on their own because sexual activity is the most strongly associated with the lust of the 8. Why otherwise call it lust? Sex is the ultimate act of lust itself. Instead the 5 focuses that lust inward towards attaining omniscience - there's a lust for knowledge and understanding and this aspect is also poorly understood when it comes to the 5. The strive to understand and attain omnscience is driven by lust itself. Also, it is not an understatement to say that whenever a 5 does reach some kind of insight, this is akin to experiencing a mental orgasm. Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually a 5 who came up with the word "mindfuck".

    So how is all this a bad thing? It's bad because it leads to physical neglect. It's bad, because the way the 5 relates to and understands the body more as a useless appendage that is only in the way of achieving omniscience, we are expressnig signs of being stuck in our pathology and we are not growing as individuals. It's bad because it's an ultimate sign of trying to reject the soul child, the things we actually desire to express.

    Rejecting the body for a 5 is not just about not being interested in sex. That would be too much of an easy conclusion for anyone to arrive at. No, it's the entire concept of the body itself that is rejected. It's the ultimate belief that I do not need a body, my mind is sufficient. This is why the 5 is said to over-identify with the mind more so than the other head types which has to do with how the inner child of the 5 is an id type whose primary drives and desires focus on physical stimulation and control. I wouldn't be surprised that many 5s also experience some kind of uncomfort in relation to their body in some way, perhaps related to sex or sexual activities or just a general uncomfort with their body in general. I'm personally very neurotic in this area to the point where I once thought of myself as asexual and I still consciously and quite actively deny myself of my sexuality. Not to say that other types cannot do this, but I think it is ultimately the 5 who will be very prone at doing this because sex is just another physical need of the body and who the hell needs sex when you can think of all these amazing things in your mind or even better quite ironically, think of having that amazing sex in your mind you know your body will never be able to express? Then it's better to not think of or desire or crave sex at all.

    This uncomfort goes back to the fear of engulfment, the need to retreat into the ivory tower our mind ultimately represents where we again, are gods. For a 5, learning to accept the body and its needs and demands and listen to the body and start acting out on the body's desires is thus an important aspect towards integration.

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  2. #2
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Hello

  3. #3
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    I don't know how I missed this thread before. This is interesting stuff. Thank you, Kamishi. You actually addressed several issues that I had wondered about.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  4. #4
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Apt indeed.

    I don't have much to add, except that I see this as quite correct for myself - and with integration I start to move toward the things I had rejected, a strange impulse to observe.
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  5. #5
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Since you summed it up so well, this thread is going to be nothing but Puscifer from now on:

    Hello

  6. #6
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamishi View Post

    what does it mean to reject one's physical body?
    I know I'm not a 5, but I have a 5 wing, I relate to your post very much. I actually was talking to someone about this today, because I had read about a way for a 6 to be less stressed. One of the ways is to get out of our heads. And it's so true...even tho I reject the idea, it's very difficult for me, and it's also just so foreign. I have to take small steps in things like this. I have to conciously say to myself. "Ok, you're thinking too much, save that for later, when your writing" or else I miss everything that's going on around me and am constantly mulling things over.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
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  7. #7
    jump sleuthiness's Avatar
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    No discomfort here, though 5 autonomy and focus on prioritization, worldly effectiveness and internal self-development will lend toward an either nomadic or hermetic flair which could give many impressions.

    Can you recall that faraway look in her eyes?

    thinking of you

  8. #8
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    "Omnipotence is not knowing how everything is done; it's just doing it." - Alan Watts
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  9. #9
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Really nice analysis, Kamishi.

    Though we don't identify with the mind in quite that way, I think 6s go through something akin to it, or at least I do, as a 6. The consequences of me over-identifying with my mind means I live out huge, extended dramas entirely in my head. What I actually act on in real life is like 10% of an event, while 90% is my mental processing. It's more of a getting caught up in the mind, like it's a trap and there's no way to escape. I don't identify on a personal level with my mind so much as I feel like I can't get out of my mind. For 6s, I think we need to go through a similar process of getting out of our heads, but ours involves learning to trust other ways of knowing, and just learning to trust, period. We'll spin our mental wheels for eternity if we don't - we have to trust that we don't need to play a drama out in our minds to be all right.

  10. #10
    Member tanstaafl28's Avatar
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    I am a 5w6, so/sx 528 tritype, and I'm 43. I am at least 100 lbs overweight. I don't really pay too much attention to what I eat. I don't move enough. I avoid physical exertion as a rule. I like sex, but my wife is far more aggressive about it than I am. I suspect I am integrating towards 8 in some ways, but still going to 7 in some others. I'm guessing it's not one of those things that happens all at once for any of us.

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