User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 22

  1. #1
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    4w3 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LSI Se
    Posts
    645

    Default 9 at the Crown of the Enneagram: Interpret, Discuss.

    9 is at the crown of the enneagram. How do you interpret this? What does it mean in terms of your understanding of the whole system?

    I was discussing this with @Flatlander recently, and we theorized that point 9 holds on to self the least. 9s who are unhealthy are dissociative, losing sense of self. 9s who are healthier might have a sense of self, but still tend to "mesh" with other people and relate easily. This might also contribute to Naranjo's diagnosis: psycho-spiritual laziness. It may pertain to a laziness in defining self, or introspection.

    Contrarily, points 4 and 5 are furthest from the crown, and hold most tightly to self. 4 holds on to self through their pursuit of authenticity and personal significance; their need to assert and define an identity. 5 holds on to self through avarice; feeling as though nothing in the world is "of" themselves, except their mind; therefore, rejecting the material world and attachments all together, which leaves them with Naranjo's diagnosis of pathological detachment.

    I'm curious to hear more thoughts on the meaning of 9 at the crown of the enneagram, and how the other types pan out in relation to it. =)
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  2. #2
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sp
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    114

    Default

    I would say that the next two types to struggle most with loss of identity are 3 and 6. They are connected to 9 in the self-perpetuating triangle of DOOM!

    Even though they are 9's neighbors, both 8 and 1 hold onto to the Self. What's interesting about these three types is that they are concerned with Ego boundaries. 8 maintains Self and Ego by maintaining an outward vigilance. 1s maintain their Self, or their ideal of Self, by maintaining an inward vigilance...I imagine this is where 1-ish superego comes in. I wonder if the fact that 5-8 and 4-1 are connected by a line of growth means anything in how these types maintain Self.

    I think that 2 and 7 might be somewhere in between.

  3. #3
    brainheart
    Guest

    Default

    How I see it:

    One of my problems with Naranjo's description of nine is I don't think he shows the whole picture. Nine, the crown, is the alpha and the omega, not just the alpha. It's the child in the womb but it's also the return to the earth. For this reason there's a real holistic sense to the nine. The nine can relate to a wide range of people, experiences, nature, etc because the nine can tap into something both internal and external and get it all. I think the concept of transcendentalism, with the oversoul, is incredibly nine-ish. A nine can go for a walk in the woods and feel a deep connection to everything. The trees, the birds, the sky, are all a part of the self. So if a tree gets cut down a nine can feel that intensely, as if they themselves were injured. There is a lack of boundaries, yes, but with that lack of boundaries comes an extreme level of empathy.

    I thought I was a 4w5 because I AM introspective and I can really relate to fours- and fives. (I'm also an INFP and a sx/sp. I don't know how I wouldn't be introspective and dark, deep...) The difference, however, is that there is this element of a weighted scale. I know what my needs are and what would be best for me but the wants and needs of others feel heavier. And so I often let go of my personal priorities, and with that comes an apathy and a depression and a numbing, because I am rather aware that I lose myself, but I don't know how to change it. So I often give up and get extremely nihilistic. I feel like I lack the oomph and the internal conviction that fours and fives have. On the plus side, because I do get where others are coming from, I'm not quite as separate as a four and five can be, even though my social instinct is last. It's why, when I thought I was a four, I was always waffling on instincts. I know I'm part of an interconnected web, but that's because I'm a nine. I feel it acutely.

    I think the real question is, what is self? What is individuality? I think for the nine this is an extremely fluid concept, probably for all types in the self-perpetuating triangle of DOOM (ha), but especially for the nine. Being both the beginning and end, the type can't help but constantly cycle through. I've never been able to grasp chronological time. The past is the present is the future. Perhaps this is why. (And maybe that's the best argument for Einstein being a nine, his theory of relativity.)

  4. #4
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INtp
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/so
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    5,091

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    I would say that the next two types to struggle most with loss of identity are 3 and 6. They are connected to 9 in the self-perpetuating triangle of DOOM!

    Even though they are 9's neighbors, both 8 and 1 hold onto to the Self. What's interesting about these three types is that they are concerned with Ego boundaries. 8 maintains Self and Ego by maintaining an outward vigilance. 1s maintain their Self, or their ideal of Self, by maintaining an inward vigilance...I imagine this is where 1-ish superego comes in. I wonder if the fact that 5-8 and 4-1 are connected by a line of growth means anything in how these types maintain Self.

    I think that 2 and 7 might be somewhere in between.
    I agree with this.
    INtp
    5w6 or 9w1 sp/so/sx, I think
    Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff
    Neutral Good
    LII-Ne




  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    5 sx
    Posts
    506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    9 is at the crown of the enneagram. How do you interpret this? What does it mean in terms of your understanding of the whole system?

    I was discussing this with @Flatlander recently, and we theorized that point 9 holds on to self the least. 9s who are unhealthy are dissociative, losing sense of self. 9s who are healthier might have a sense of self, but still tend to "mesh" with other people and relate easily. This might also contribute to Naranjo's diagnosis: psycho-spiritual laziness. It may pertain to a laziness in defining self, or introspection.

    Contrarily, points 4 and 5 are furthest from the crown, and hold most tightly to self. 4 holds on to self through their pursuit of authenticity and personal significance; their need to assert and define an identity. 5 holds on to self through avarice; feeling as though nothing in the world is "of" themselves, except their mind; therefore, rejecting the material world and attachments all together, which leaves them with Naranjo's diagnosis of pathological detachment.

    I'm curious to hear more thoughts on the meaning of 9 at the crown of the enneagram, and how the other types pan out in relation to it. =)

    I don't think it has anything to do with "laziness in defining self." It can just be difficult to when you're so attuned to others' frames of mind.

    If anything I think 9 is one of the most vigilantly self-examining types, because they have to be to prevent dissociation. As @brainheart said, 9s don't only represent the impressionable infant, with a heightened ability to absorb and an immature identity. At their best, they represent the actualized self who has been able to take in all that is not himself (openness), lose himself many times in the process of trying to establish boundaries, but come out in the end with the ego intact, realized and self-aware.

    I was reading about Maslow's qualities of self-actualized people earlier today, and now that I think of it, many of them are traits associated with highly mature/healthy 9s. I mean, they could characterize mature individuals of any type, but "dichotomy transcendence" is especially 9-ish.

    Touching on what brainheart said about relativity — it's hard to feel a significant amount of motivation for a goal when I'm constantly aware of other viewpoints which may render my goal unnecessary or counterproductive. if my sense of self isn't firm at the time I'll grow detached from my own instincts/values, become very nihilistic, and give up the goal altogether.

    does that make sense?

  6. #6
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    4w3 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LSI Se
    Posts
    645

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    I wonder if the fact that 5-8 and 4-1 are connected by a line of growth means anything in how these types maintain Self.
    Interesting. =)

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    How I see it:

    One of my problems with Naranjo's description of nine is I don't think he shows the whole picture.
    Perhaps I'll start another thread on things Naranjo missed for each type
    I have a lot to say about this for 8s.

    A nine can go for a walk in the woods and feel a deep connection to everything. The trees, the birds, the sky, are all a part of the self. So if a tree gets cut down a nine can feel that intensely, as if they themselves were injured. There is a lack of boundaries, yes, but with that lack of boundaries comes an extreme level of empathy.
    Do you feel this way all the time? Or just sometimes?

    I know what my needs are and what would be best for me but the wants and needs of others feel heavier. And so I often let go of my personal priorities, and with that comes an apathy and a depression and a numbing, because I am rather aware that I lose myself, but I don't know how to change it. So I often give up and get extremely nihilistic. I feel like I lack the oomph and the internal conviction that fours and fives have.
    That is so interesting. Do you try to come up with ways to change it? How quickly do you give up?

    I think the real question is, what is self? What is individuality? I think for the nine this is an extremely fluid concept, probably for all types in the self-perpetuating triangle of DOOM (ha), but especially for the nine. Being both the beginning and end, the type can't help but constantly cycle through. I've never been able to grasp chronological time. The past is the present is the future. Perhaps this is why. (And maybe that's the best argument for Einstein being a nine, his theory of relativity.)
    Einstein as a 9? Wow..
    The past is the present is the future... very interesting. I've felt like this sometimes, like I can't help but see the "whole picture" all at once?
    Can you elaborate on this?

    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    If anything I think 9 is one of the most vigilantly self-examining types, because they have to be to prevent dissociation.
    So you are aware of this possibility and work to develop self-awareness in order to fight it?
    Is this something you've always realized about yourself, even before studying enneagram?

    Touching on what brainheart said about relativity — it's hard to feel a significant amount of motivation for a goal when I'm constantly aware of other viewpoints which may render my goal unnecessary or counterproductive. if my sense of self isn't firm at the time I'll grow detached from my own instincts/values, become very nihilistic, and give up the goal altogether.

    does that make sense?
    How do you select which viewpoints to listen to? Can it be anyone? Or just people you trust? Do all viewpoints sort of "get under your skin?"

    Also how can your "sense of self be firm at the time" - how do you know it's firm? Is that if you make your decisions and stick to them regardless of other viewpoints? Does that happen?
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    5 sx
    Posts
    506

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    So you are aware of this possibility and work to develop self-awareness in order to fight it?
    Is this something you've always realized about yourself, even before studying enneagram?
    It's not something I've always known about myself, but I knew about it before studying enneagram. I actually had a strong sense of self up until my depression became very severe. I've always been interested in identity, but this was the first time I was really vulnerable to the scarier implications of those questions. I didn't feel like myself at all (Fi-Si?) and it scared the hell out of me. Eventually set in motion a year-long episode of depersonalization.

    How do you select which viewpoints to listen to? Can it be anyone? Or just people you trust? Do all viewpoints sort of "get under your skin?"
    (Ugh, I communicated something entirely different than what I meant. I think you [rightly] took "viewpoints" to mean "opinions," but I was talking about something more visceral - like drive or attitude, maybe? I have no idea how to explain it, so I guess I'll answer your question.)
    I consider all of them, but I've never trusted anyone's opinion implicitly. I need to know for myself that an opinion is valid. Someone could make the stupidest, most ill-informed remark and I'll still analyze and respond to it seriously even if I sense immediately that it's bullshit; someone I respect could say something that sounds very intelligent and well-thought out, and I'll do the same. I don't know if this has as much to do with being a 9 as it does with strongly valuing civil discourse and logical consistency.

    Also how can your "sense of self be firm at the time" - how do you know it's firm? Is that if you make your decisions and stick to them regardless of other viewpoints? Does that happen?
    As long as I'm mentally/emotionally healthy, it's firm.
    I've just dealt with a lot of apathy. Even while I stay firm in what I believe and care about, I've gone through phases where this wasn't felt at all; it was totally cognitive, and my drive was lost. Again, I don't really know what I was saying in that paragraph... I've never been confused about my values, just temporarily detached from any passion towards them. This happens when a. I begin to weigh others' feelings above my own (as brainheart said) or b. I'm too overwhelmed by my own feelings and use detachment as a coping mechanism. I'll subconsciously dull the emotional immediacy of my wants, and eventually I don't feel anything.

  8. #8
    WALMART
    Guest

    Default

    We are kings of the castle, hence our crown.


    I have drawn many parallels between Buddhism and Enneagram type nines. The latter is almost inherently drawn to the universal concepts Buddhism propagates, and it fascinates me. They embrace all that is good and right in the world at an intrinsic level - tranquility and peace, humility and happiness. Kendrick Lamar wrote the nine anthem when he recorded this:



    "We live in a world on two different axles - You live in a world, you living behind the mirror"

    Nines' conscious pursuit is to shatter the mirror and live eternally, while many other personality types' conscious pursuit is to reinforce its structuring.

  9. #9
    brainheart
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    Do you feel this way all the time? Or just sometimes?
    No, I feel incredibly disconnected often, actually. It can be a coping mechanism. I think this is where the 'tuning out' of nines comes from, because otherwise the empathy and lack of boundaries gets to be too overwhelming. I can often seem to people like I don't give a shit. For example, I'll be tormented about the death of some random bird but when my father in law died I felt nothing. I tend to not feel things strongly except for when I'm alone, and sometimes it's really delayed. I think this is a way that nines and fives can be really similar. I think they are both types prone to nihilism/being schizoid when unhealthy, it just comes from different places. That said, however, I am also really moody- I'm actually bipolar. Funny thing is, though, most people would never suspect because I tend to keep it quite hidden. I think this is where a lot of the misconceptions regarding nines comes from. We can appear rather unemotional or more positive externally- there is a smoothing over- but internally, things can be completely nuts. We just don't tend to share it, so people like Naranjo think nines lack depth, or are simplistic.

    That is so interesting. Do you try to come up with ways to change it? How quickly do you give up?
    Yes, I definitely come up with ways, and can get very excited about these ways. But when my assertions start to create conflict (both internal and external), or seem too hard, I can fall rather easily. It's essentially a constant struggle.


    Einstein as a 9? Wow..
    Yeah, there seems to be a fair bit of argument between 5 vs 9 for him.

    The past is the present is the future... very interesting. I've felt like this sometimes, like I can't help but see the "whole picture" all at once?
    Can you elaborate on this?
    I'll try. There's little to no progression to my life. You know how in films they will cut through time, going back and forth? It can make time feel extremely non-linear. That's how I tend to feel. I'm three years old, I'm thirty. Then I'm six. When I write I'm all over the place. There's little to no cause and effect, no story arc, no conclusion. It's like I'm inhabiting a world with no time.

    Have you seen the movie Tree of Life? Or I'm Not There? I think both of these films have a real nine-ish fluidity to them. I'm Not There I think is especially sexual nine- Bob Dylan is played by several actors, experiencing different lives, living different genders. I told a friend once that I sometimes see myself, when I'm old, as an old man. In my dreams I'm just as often male as I am female. I used to dream about giving birth to raccoon babies and it seemed perfectly natural. This is why I mentioned the self before, and what exactly that means. My self, my life, is just all over the place. It's not that I don't have an identity, it's just not so concrete as it seems to be for most people. This used to bother me, but I'm starting to embrace it. It's actually kind of cool.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    8w9 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    1,199

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    No, I feel incredibly disconnected often, actually. It can be a coping mechanism. I think this is where the 'tuning out' of nines comes from, because otherwise the empathy and lack of boundaries gets to be too overwhelming. I can often seem to people like I don't give a shit. For example, I'll be tormented about the death of some random bird but when my father in law died I felt nothing. I tend to not feel things strongly except for when I'm alone, and sometimes it's really delayed. I think this is a way that nines and fives can be really similar. I think they are both types prone to nihilism/being schizoid when unhealthy, it just comes from different places. That said, however, I am also really moody- I'm actually bipolar. Funny thing is, though, most people would never suspect because I tend to keep it quite hidden. I think this is where a lot of the misconceptions regarding nines comes from. We can appear rather unemotional or more positive externally- there is a smoothing over- but internally, things can be completely nuts. We just don't tend to share it, so people like Naranjo think nines lack depth, or are simplistic.
    On the other hand, I find that 9s often have difficulties sharing their inner turmoil as they tend to try to look away from this as well so I don't blame Naranjo either.

    How would you say your sense of nihilism differs to that of the 5? In the case of seeing a birth writhing in death convulsions, I would perhaps feel a little sorry for it too but I wonder if for me specifically, that's just not an NF thing. I can intellectualize away my empathy though.

    I'll try. There's little to no progression to my life. You know how in films they will cut through time, going back and forth? It can make time feel extremely non-linear. That's how I tend to feel. I'm three years old, I'm thirty. Then I'm six. When I write I'm all over the place. There's little to no cause and effect, no story arc, no conclusion. It's like I'm inhabiting a world with no time.

    Have you seen the movie Tree of Life? Or I'm Not There? I think both of these films have a real nine-ish fluidity to them. I'm Not There I think is especially sexual nine- Bob Dylan is played by several actors, experiencing different lives, living different genders. I told a friend once that I sometimes see myself, when I'm old, as an old man. In my dreams I'm just as often male as I am female. I used to dream about giving birth to raccoon babies and it seemed perfectly natural. This is why I mentioned the self before, and what exactly that means. My self, my life, is just all over the place. It's not that I don't have an identity, it's just not so concrete as it seems to be for most people. This used to bother me, but I'm starting to embrace it. It's actually kind of cool.
    Interesting. Have you seen the film Mr. Nobody? How do you think a 4 film would play out in contrast? Have you seen Vanilla Sky? Actually, this is a really interesting topic that I think deserves its own thread in a way, how enneagram themes play out in fiction.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Youtuber | The Typologist Blog | Redditor | Message me!

Similar Threads

  1. [Inst] Descriptions of the Enneagram Instinctual Variants
    By BlackCat in forum Instinctual Subtypes
    Replies: 122
    Last Post: 09-25-2017, 10:36 AM
  2. [Enneagram] The Wisdom of the Enneagram (Riso and Hudson)
    By highlander in forum Typology and Psychology Book Reviews
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-18-2014, 09:11 AM
  3. Need for and fear of closeness at the same time
    By hommefatal in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 07-24-2009, 05:04 PM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 01-28-2009, 08:19 AM
  5. [NT] NTs are at the bottom of society
    By Jgib5328 in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 03-27-2008, 12:10 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO