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  1. #11
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    On the other hand, I find that 9s often have difficulties sharing their inner turmoil as they tend to try to look away from this as well so I don't blame Naranjo either.
    I agree that this is true for a lot of nines. That's why, although I considered nine in the past, I never stuck with it and always returned to four. I think I understand how the nine operates within me better now. I think sx/sp nines are more likely to delve into their inner turmoil. It is the instinctual stacking that is motivated to 'know the heart and resolve inner conflict', after all, the 'hungry ghost'. I really like this from the bliss stream 9w1 sx/sp description, it fits me really well: They desire personal development and enlightenment. However, their sloth is always one step ahead of them. They know what they gotta do, but can't summon the motivation to do it. So what I'm saying is that there seems to be an emphasis in Naranjo on the psychospiritual inertia of nine. I think with the sx/sp nine, the introspection is there, there's just this heavy blanket of apathy, this what's the point, really?

    How would you say your sense of nihilism differs to that of the 5?
    I explained my nihilism above, that nothing I do is really worth the time or effort. I'm not going to do anything profound, or if I do, no one will notice or see it, and there's lots of people doing things that are interesting and creative and profound, so why? I am a miniscule drop in an infinite bucket. Why bother?

    You're a five, tell me what your nihilism is like.

    Interesting. Have you seen the film Mr. Nobody? How do you think a 4 film would play out in contrast? Have you seen Vanilla Sky? Actually, this is a really interesting topic that I think deserves its own thread in a way, how enneagram themes play out in fiction.
    I have seen Vanilla Sky, although it's been a long while. I've never seen Mr. Nobody. I think with a four film the protagonist is less fluid, more like the individual is the constant within an ever-changing world vs the other way around. But I don't really know. It seems it would be that way to me. Funnily, Bob Dylan is a four, and the premise of the film is that he went through different periods of his life where he was kind of reinventing himself, figuring himself out, so... who knows? I think Andrei Tarkovsky's The Mirror is a good example of a four (4w5) film; it can seem really similar to Tree of Life, but I think there's a difference. In The Mirror there is a real feeling of separateness, isolation while Tree of Life has an undercurrent of transcendentalism/unification. All of Terence Malick's films seem very INFP sx/sp nine to me, but maybe that's just because they resonate extremely strongly for me. He is the director who most closely depicts what goes on in my internal world.

    Anyway, the mirror-



    This is a montage from Tree of Life, which kind of bugs me (that it's not the original edit) but it's done well and gives the gist of the film, so-


  2. #12
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I agree that this is true for a lot of nines. That's why, although I considered nine in the past, I never stuck with it and always returned to four. I think I understand how the nine operates within me better now. I think sx/sp nines are more likely to delve into their inner turmoil. It is the instinctual stacking that is motivated to 'know the heart and resolve inner conflict', after all, the 'hungry ghost'. I really like this from the bliss stream 9w1 sx/sp description, it fits me really well: They desire personal development and enlightenment. However, their sloth is always one step ahead of them. They know what they gotta do, but can't summon the motivation to do it. So what I'm saying is that there seems to be an emphasis in Naranjo on the psychospiritual inertia of nine. I think with the sx/sp nine, the introspection is there, there's just this heavy blanket of apathy, this what's the point, really?

    I explained my nihilism above, that nothing I do is really worth the time or effort. I'm not going to do anything profound, or if I do, no one will notice or see it, and there's lots of people doing things that are interesting and creative and profound, so why? I am a miniscule drop in an infinite bucket. Why bother?

    You're a five, tell me what your nihilism is like.
    So it's about finding motivation for you? The part in bold sounds a lot like your connection to 3 as well, that you desire recognition. I suppose this is one of the reasons why both 5 and 9 are often confused because they both got a connection to an id type and a head type.

    And to me nihilism is more about lack of meaning and purpose in the world itself including myself. I am going to be boring and quote some lyrics by Dark Tranquillity that tend to explore the lower health levels of the 5 a lot:


    In a way I think the lyrics speak to themselves but it's kind of like losing faith or losing sight of that which matters. More like giving up but refusing to let go driven by avarice and possibly greed too. There's a focus on meaninglessness and pointlessness. To me these lyrics are a great exposition of the unhealthy mindset of the 5 because you got all the defining features present. The very first verse describes what happens when you finally realize you are ultimately incompetent and you will never find truth. It's what the user Vincent on PerC wrote, when this happens, instead of letting go the 5 holds on to what they know with their dear life. Calling it "lost to apathy" isn't a far stretch at all since the knowledge that you'll never know results in apathy - it's all pointless to even try to understand since I'll never know. Dark Tranquillity also has a song called "The Fatalist" which is also captures it well:



    The rest of the lyrics pretty much go on explaining one of the 5 fears of turning into subhuman, probably the most expressed in the chorus. "The Fatalist" has a decidedly stronger 8 undercurrent with a vengeance/lust theme present "Now lays in waste and ruin/And laid to waste again" and so on.

    I have seen Vanilla Sky, although it's been a long while. I've never seen Mr. Nobody. I think with a four film the protagonist is less fluid, more like the individual is the constant within an ever-changing world vs the other way around. But I don't really know. It seems it would be that way to me. Funnily, Bob Dylan is a four, and the premise of the film is that he went through different periods of his life where he was kind of reinventing himself, figuring himself out, so... who knows? I think Andrei Tarkovsky's The Mirror is a good example of a four (4w5) film; it can seem really similar to Tree of Life, but I think there's a difference. In The Mirror there is a real feeling of separateness, isolation while Tree of Life has an undercurrent of transcendentalism/unification. All of Terence Malick's films seem very INFP sx/sp nine to me, but maybe that's just because they resonate extremely strongly for me. He is the director who most closely depicts what goes on in my internal world.

    Anyway, the mirror-



    This is a montage from Tree of Life, which kind of bugs me (that it's not the original edit) but it's done well and gives the gist of the film, so-

    Hm, yes, I see what you mean. Would identity be an important feature in a 9 story and if so, where would the focus lie? Success and recognition or finding oneself? Hm, I see what you mean with Tree of Life, from an sx 9 perspective, especially the scene with two cells merging.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  3. #13
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    So it's about finding motivation for you? The part in bold sounds a lot like your connection to 3 as well, that you desire recognition. I suppose this is one of the reasons why both 5 and 9 are often confused because they both got a connection to an id type and a head type.
    Yes, that's a good observation. Perhaps that's also why one and five are often confused as well, especially those on the 1w9/9w1 axis.

    And to me nihilism is more about lack of meaning and purpose in the world itself including myself. I am going to be boring and quote some lyrics by Dark Tranquillity that tend to explore the lower health levels of the 5 a lot:
    I also often feel an empty shell and lost to apathy, and that things are meaningless and pointless. What you say here, though, is different and I think worth noting-

    The very first verse describes what happens when you finally realize you are ultimately incompetent and you will never find truth.
    This need to find truth I think is incredibly five (also possibly six?) as well as the despair that comes when you realize this will never happen. I really don't feel a need to find truth, because I don't think there is such a thing as an ultimate truth, and honestly, I really don't care that there isn't. My guess is this where the sharp five thought vs fuzzy nine thought comes from. I feel no need for particulars when it comes to understanding. I much prefer the gist or the essence.


    Hm, yes, I see what you mean. Would identity be an important feature in a 9 story and if so, where would the focus lie? Success and recognition or finding oneself? Hm, I see what you mean with Tree of Life, from an sx 9 perspective, especially the scene with two cells merging.
    That's a good question. I'm inclined to say... all? I have zero interest in Harry Potter (I actually really dislike fantasy, I find it incredibly dull), but he's a good example of a nine story- the overlooked invisible kid who has hidden talents and is called to do great things. So in the midst he discovers himself, achieves, and is finally recognized as being someone who matters. I think that the goal of each nine is going to be different but I think what every nine needs to learn in order to grow is that they matter, and not even really to others, but to themselves. I know this is how it is for me. If I could one day say to myself, and really mean it, I matter to me and I am going to do these certain things because they matter to me and therefore 100% matter- well, that will be a big fucking day in my life.

    There's this movie called Grace of my Heart and it is very much this sort of story. She dreams of being a singer but she pushes all of her personal desires to the side for years. Eventually she sees that her personal story and voice is worth sharing. This trailer is good because all of the things she says in here are so nine.


  4. #14
    Member Dying Acedia's Avatar
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    Well, I'm of the opinion that 9 is at the crown because acedia/sloth underlies all psychological deterioration (and conversely, it's antithesis underlies all growth). Otherwise, I think there's already a lot of good points here.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    So it's about finding motivation for you?
    This is true for me too. I usually have an idea of what I'm after, but it's like I can't put the pieces together. Like I'm constantly working with abstractions because there is no concrete motivation. It's very maddening, and usually I just go do something else (i.e. lazy nothingness) because I can't make it work in reality.

    However, there are keys here and there that fill me with energy, and suddenly I find myself able to follow something to completion. It is like this morning, I was inspired to make an artwork about pink skies, but there are so many details in making that work, and let's face it, "pink sky" doesn't cover the whole picture of what I'm after. So eventually the inspiration dies and I have to find another wave to ride.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Filter the nonsense and laugh at what's left
    Indecision/nonvision what matters taken away
    The lyrics here, beautiful as they are, seem ironic to me. Indecision, but the writer seems so sure that what matters has taken away. All through it it seems so dark and pessimistic, but if there's really no meaning why even bother with that? I can understand the pain and loss, but not how this turns into nihilism. My nihilism is more like a blank stare. Like yes, there are things which matter in the world, but I'm really not a part of them.

    In the end, it becomes, why should I care one way or the other? Things like "I calmly wondered whether I should have an accident with a razor" or "Shall I kill myself, or have a cup of coffee?" resonate with me. Like it's funny, because it's true that they're really that equal, just no one really can bring themselves to say it. Thankfully I don't feel that way at the moment.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KazeCraven View Post

    The lyrics here, beautiful as they are, seem ironic to me. Indecision, but the writer seems so sure that what matters has taken away. All through it it seems so dark and pessimistic, but if there's really no meaning why even bother with that? I can understand the pain and loss, but not how this turns into nihilism. My nihilism is more like a blank stare. Like yes, there are things which matter in the world, but I'm really not a part of them.

    In the end, it becomes, why should I care one way or the other? Things like "I calmly wondered whether I should have an accident with a razor" or "Shall I kill myself, or have a cup of coffee?" resonate with me. Like it's funny, because it's true that they're really that equal, just no one really can bring themselves to say it. Thankfully I don't feel that way at the moment.
    Because it is better to still believe in what you know and hold onto that than letting go. If you let go, you fall into complete despair, you lose yourself and your ego is lost. Total annihilation, lost in oblivion. It's exactly what the chorus says, "Look at the shell that is you/empty, fragile, weak/soon this battle is over/lost to apathy" because what you are grasping and holding onto is an illusion and it's weak. You realize this but yet you keep clutching because it's all you know or in other words, "it matters not, not", or to quote the lyrics of the song on the album that comes after it:

    Never again
    In perfect clarity
    See the day in child like vision
    Where does it lead from here?
    On without that guidance
    Disaster
    Role model without a part
    Our search is wider

    Cast off those wide-eyed hopes and dreams
    Mind matters, matters not

    The truth that it doesn't matter just strongly conflicts with the fact that you want it to matter and the realization that it doesn't matter is what causes the sense of nihilism. It matters not, not. Mind matters, matters not.

    I could essentially recommend anyone who's trying to get the unhealthy thinking of enneatype 5 to read up on Dark Tranquillity lyrics. Their later albums (from the Mind's I to recent) all contain at least one very 5-ish song.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  6. #16
    Member Dying Acedia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I could essentially recommend anyone who's trying to get the unhealthy thinking of enneatype 5 to read up on Dark Tranquillity lyrics. Their later albums (from the Mind's I to recent) all contain at least one very 5-ish song.
    I was just thinking that you seemed to have found a band that really resonates with the (unhealthy) 5 condition.

    I think my means of salvation is more mythological. I feel, once I've reached a near nihilistic state, all is already lost. At that point, the only hope is to abandon ship. Death and rebirth. If one part of me has fallen into the insanity of meaninglessness, it is lost, and I can only hope my activities awaken another part of me that is motivated to take action. It comes as part of the natural selflessness that is 9. Just as I can absorb the qualities of those who surround me as if they were me, so too can I abandon myself as if it were not me.

    For that reason, I think a 9ish song goes in the opposite direction. It abandons the pain and looks at it with fresh eyes. A clean state, as the wreckage is abandoned in favor of a beautiful hope on the horizon. One set of lyrics that comes to mind is Lounge in Formation, by The Action Design:

    Sitting and waiting for something entertaining
    To flow from a glowing screen
    Washing right over your brain
    Like a sickening sludge
    Lounge in formation
    Loss of sensation
    What is the point of working
    All the diligent day
    If at the end you come home and say

    "What a burden being a person
    What a burden being alive"?

    All about comfort
    We like to walk in a line
    We follow those from before us
    Making mistakes (yeah)
    Time after time
    Let's dig deep
    Let's find out what's inside
    Let's never rest and never say

    "What a burden being a person
    What a burden being alive"
    Take some pride in
    Being a person
    Take back your eyes
    And be alive

  7. #17
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KazeCraven View Post
    I was just thinking that you seemed to have found a band that really resonates with the (unhealthy) 5 condition.

    I think my means of salvation is more mythological. I feel, once I've reached a near nihilistic state, all is already lost. At that point, the only hope is to abandon ship. Death and rebirth. If one part of me has fallen into the insanity of meaninglessness, it is lost, and I can only hope my activities awaken another part of me that is motivated to take action. It comes as part of the natural selflessness that is 9. Just as I can absorb the qualities of those who surround me as if they were me, so too can I abandon myself as if it were not me.

    For that reason, I think a 9ish song goes in the opposite direction. It abandons the pain and looks at it with fresh eyes. A clean state, as the wreckage is abandoned in favor of a beautiful hope on the horizon. One set of lyrics that comes to mind is Lounge in Formation, by The Action Design:

    Sitting and waiting for something entertaining
    To flow from a glowing screen
    Washing right over your brain
    Like a sickening sludge
    Lounge in formation
    Loss of sensation
    What is the point of working
    All the diligent day
    If at the end you come home and say

    "What a burden being a person
    What a burden being alive"?

    All about comfort
    We like to walk in a line
    We follow those from before us
    Making mistakes (yeah)
    Time after time
    Let's dig deep
    Let's find out what's inside
    Let's never rest and never say

    "What a burden being a person
    What a burden being alive"
    Take some pride in
    Being a person
    Take back your eyes
    And be alive
    Huh, interesting, that kind of thinking is very foreign to me. How can you see the positivity of despair? Then it is not genuine.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Huh, interesting, that kind of thinking is very foreign to me. How can you see the positivity of despair? Then it is not genuine.
    Well, the way I see it is this: within you resonates the idea that there is hope for the future. When you are lost, that idea ceases to resonate, and any attempts at positive thinking seem "fake." However, after you have died for some time (metaphorically), you are hit with something that resonates, which is that you are not living up to your potential. (Which is meaningful because it now resonates with you again.)

    You may have had a good reason to despair originally, but with these newfound feelings perhaps you can bend reality and create a new solution. Perhaps it is not genuine, but why stay true to despair? I think the difference is in ego construction, where one (9) tends to see this as an entirely plausible option, to let go of what is causing despair and find something more positive. Whereas the other (5) sees this as impossible, precisely because you are always in it and cannot forget what caused the despair.

    For example, say I've reached a point of hopelessness. There is no hope, and I might as well kill myself. What happens here? One, I let myself go. Morals are irrelevant in hopelessness, so do what's convenient. Future goals are pointless, no need to aspire to anything. But I have habits, so I don't just sit and do entirely nothing (though a lot of nothing is happening). I may make some half-assed attempt at taking my life, but it's more like "wonder what will happen if I do this?" and is more simply risky, careless behavior. More characteristically, I simply let go and take base-sum activity, because actually committing suicide goes against the wishes of the body (and requires more effort than a hopeless person cares to muster).

    New hope can come from a number of areas:
    1)realizations on the way to suicide: perhaps the body reacts to the intention to kill myself and I find the despair is replaced by my fear of death (a partial resetting of the mind to base state of being), or perhaps I take a drug intending to kill myself but I find something else to inspire me through that. Once that happens, the despair is erased because new hope was found through the body's will to live, and the new self suppresses the old self until it too finds a will to live (a self-fragmenting/cracked version of the "do nothing for a time and something hopeful will come" tactic)
    2)clinging onto someone else: maybe I can forget myself and find new hope through adopting someone else's raison d'etre, or perhaps my despair will be seen and someone will care enough to fight for me (possibly 4-influence here)
    3)do nothing for a long time: despair is mostly a feeling, and unless there is a chemical imbalance causing depression, over time habits lead to necessary new behaviors and those new behaviors create new thoughts which create a new self (i.e. a case of reconciling cognitive dissonance by siding with one's actions rather than with one's mind, which is encouraged by the despairing mind which desires its own destruction)


    For the record, I don't see this as finding positivity within the despair so much as giving up (because it's hopeless) and eventually happening upon something that is promising. But if I haven't addressed your question you'll need to clarify how it still seems like it's positivity of despair.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KazeCraven View Post
    Well, the way I see it is this: within you resonates the idea that there is hope for the future. When you are lost, that idea ceases to resonate, and any attempts at positive thinking seem "fake." However, after you have died for some time (metaphorically), you are hit with something that resonates, which is that you are not living up to your potential. (Which is meaningful because it now resonates with you again.)

    You may have had a good reason to despair originally, but with these newfound feelings perhaps you can bend reality and create a new solution. Perhaps it is not genuine, but why stay true to despair? I think the difference is in ego construction, where one (9) tends to see this as an entirely plausible option, to let go of what is causing despair and find something more positive. Whereas the other (5) sees this as impossible, precisely because you are always in it and cannot forget what caused the despair.

    For example, say I've reached a point of hopelessness. There is no hope, and I might as well kill myself. What happens here? One, I let myself go. Morals are irrelevant in hopelessness, so do what's convenient. Future goals are pointless, no need to aspire to anything. But I have habits, so I don't just sit and do entirely nothing (though a lot of nothing is happening). I may make some half-assed attempt at taking my life, but it's more like "wonder what will happen if I do this?" and is more simply risky, careless behavior. More characteristically, I simply let go and take base-sum activity, because actually committing suicide goes against the wishes of the body (and requires more effort than a hopeless person cares to muster).

    New hope can come from a number of areas:
    1)realizations on the way to suicide: perhaps the body reacts to the intention to kill myself and I find the despair is replaced by my fear of death (a partial resetting of the mind to base state of being), or perhaps I take a drug intending to kill myself but I find something else to inspire me through that. Once that happens, the despair is erased because new hope was found through the body's will to live, and the new self suppresses the old self until it too finds a will to live (a self-fragmenting/cracked version of the "do nothing for a time and something hopeful will come" tactic)
    2)clinging onto someone else: maybe I can forget myself and find new hope through adopting someone else's raison d'etre, or perhaps my despair will be seen and someone will care enough to fight for me (possibly 4-influence here)
    3)do nothing for a long time: despair is mostly a feeling, and unless there is a chemical imbalance causing depression, over time habits lead to necessary new behaviors and those new behaviors create new thoughts which create a new self (i.e. a case of reconciling cognitive dissonance by siding with one's actions rather than with one's mind, which is encouraged by the despairing mind which desires its own destruction)


    For the record, I don't see this as finding positivity within the despair so much as giving up (because it's hopeless) and eventually happening upon something that is promising. But if I haven't addressed your question you'll need to clarify how it still seems like it's positivity of despair.
    No, I think you answered it just fine and this is very different to how I see it, especially to how you describe your relationship to your body. To me my body is needless to begin with and plays a very minor role in my identity. I am not sure if it's as much being unable to forget what's causing despair as much it being an inability to find answers. The 5 identifies with his mind so naturally he also makes the correlation between what he knows and his mind, leading to the conclusion that what you know defines who you are in some shape or form. It's very much like Descartes' cogito, ergo sum. As I translate it, I am the sum of my thoughts.

    If it turns out that your thoughts are false, then the conclusion is that you are false and you should simply cease existence.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    No, I think you answered it just fine and this is very different to how I see it, especially to how you describe your relationship to your body. To me my body is needless to begin with and plays a very minor role in my identity. I am not sure if it's as much being unable to forget what's causing despair as much it being an inability to find answers. The 5 identifies with his mind so naturally he also makes the correlation between what he knows and his mind, leading to the conclusion that what you know defines who you are in some shape or form. It's very much like Descartes' cogito, ergo sum. As I translate it, I am the sum of my thoughts.

    If it turns out that your thoughts are false, then the conclusion is that you are false and you should simply cease existence.
    Ah. I find myself occasionally concerned about the mind/identity issue from a metaphysical/spiritual standpoint. What happens to me after I die? If I live beyond this life, I might find myself unequipped to handle it, not having the power of the body to rely upon. In that regard, the mind seems more stable (though nothing is really assured).

    I used to believe that I was something beyond my body, even cogito, ergo sum, but life happened, I fell into despair, and I saw the mind itself as part of the problem. It sounds paradoxical, but involved in that is the wish to cease to exist, and through that the mind acquiesces to total destruction and the body takes over because it chooses to live on. However, the mind is not something you can really 'reject' (as what do you reject with if you step out of the mind?). Besides, even the perception of the mind as a problem comes from the mind.

    Escaping the mind feels more like the final goodbye as you leave your old home for the last time. Gradually, all of history greys. Sitting out in the sun. Getting day drunk. Even drawing or playing music, so long as the chatter of the mind is displaced. A few thoughts here and there, but not loud enough to really be aware of them. Eventually the body prompts a need for a mind: "how do I solve this problem?" or "suddenly I am idle. I do not like this. What should I do now?" And you gradually remember parts of yourself that are needed. The rest is forgotten, or shall we say, "willfully ignored."
    Last edited by Dying Acedia; 04-14-2013 at 07:33 PM. Reason: keep forgetting important details

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