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  1. #41
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    Aside from a short period when I was very traumatized, I have never had any trouble with the law, holding jobs, having relationships, being close to my family etc. But I will not sit and claim that the sadistic tendency is eradicated just because I haven't done any majorly sadistic thing in years. Self-awareness is not something to be lazy about once it's "accomplished." It's a life-long pursuit.
    But I do not think that sadism is at the heart of the unhealthy type 8. It is a side-effect of the core of it, but not the star of the show. When I was at my worst in my dating life, I picked crappy dates on purpose to serve myself a bit of control in an area where I had none. If I got to choose bad boyfriends on my own terms, then I would feel better about the whole situation, regardless of the fact that at the end I was still CHOOSING to be with a bad boyfriend. It was a bad attempt at self preservation made by a stupid girl, but sadism is not at the heart of what we're about. Control is what we're trying to achieve.. at our best, we take control of the things that give us joy, and we accept the terms of control that are outside of our grasp. At our worst, we start throwing tantrums like children.. forcing control away from us, trying to take it in things we KNOW we cannot have it in, and worse.

    Sadism comes with that territory.. but it is not at the heart of it. It's a stepping stone on the way down.. I fear our level of ill health is far more dismal than mere sadism and anti-socialism.

    He did not claim a super-hero "complex" at your best. That sort of complex is what he'd describe for type 7 Narcissist.
    Type 8s are often dictated as self-sacrificing at their best.. as if we finally achieved our goal of over-coming our self-preserving ways by saving others and putting ourselves in potentially great peril (either physically, in career situations, etc.) for the overall good of others. It is a disastrous read, and leaves little hope for the average person that happens to be a type 8.

    Either I'm struggling to stop terrorizing people around me, or I am struggling to continuously help others even at the expense of myself.. there is no balance in these descriptions. There is no breath of fresh air, where one can maintain anything. Self-awareness is a life-long journey.. but there is no stage of maintaining one's self in the type 8 descriptions. We are always wrong, or always struggling to stop being wrong.

    Yeah I would probably not try to "right" it - that's the difference. I also have two withdrawn types in my tritype and a chronic illness which left me speaking in a whisper, and an SO blindspot so dealing with other people is not my favorite thing. Therefore I'm more selfish in this regard. That's another reason it was a shitty example.
    Makes sense enough. I agree that, if given no other choice, I'm not going to have my stomach cramping and be in pain just because there isn't a clean facility to use. I'd probably still, in the end, use the facility regardless of its clean status if I really needed to go. I wouldn't feel bad for 'adding' to a toilet that won't flush, true, but I would hesitate to give the owner time to correct the problem before deciding on such a thing. Fixing it is much better, to me, than just adding to a problem.

    Sigh.. why is it so hard for people to understand pure and utter selfishness with no ulterior motive, no point to prove, no justice, no "righting," and nothing but a will to get exactly what you want ? Is this really that hard to swallow?? =p
    Because this is false security. There is no pure selfishness without these other concepts. You cannot just decide "Well, that trash can is full, so I can throw this paper cup down if I want. They didn't leave their trash cans open for me to do the right thing, and I'm not going to carry trash around for another few miles before finding another can." You're making more work for someone else somewhere, you're hurting the environment--everything you do has an impact on those around you. There is no selfishness without hurting others in some way, shape, or form. Sometimes it is necessary to be selfish, but that does not mean it didn't hurt the other party.

    Say someone with no where to go (due to their own crappy decisions) asks you to stay at your place. You agree, but under certain terms. They fail to meet those terms, so you have to throw them out, otherwise they're mistaking your kindness as weakness. Even though you are being selfish in that regard, it isn't necessarily bad.. infact, it is something many people would do. But it also is to the detriment of the other party whether it is overall bad or not. We all must pick and choose our battles of selfishness.. if you could hold your bowels and use a facility that is in order, why would you just say, "No, fuck that, I want to use this one and I'm not going out of my way for others just because this is all fucked up"? It doesn't make any sense. In the trash example.. I would secure my trash and carry it until I found another receptacle suitable enough to deposit it in, even if that mean leaving it in my car until I got home, or walking into a place out of my way.

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  2. #42
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Edit: I'm not sure if I'd call Eights sadists by nature. More so than Ones, maybe, but I know some very nice Eights, like @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=7254" target="_blank">Wind-Up Rex</a>, who I would never call sadistic. Unless you agree with that definition of Eight-ish "sadism", Rex?


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  3. #43
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    But I do not think that sadism is at the heart of the unhealthy type 8. It is a side-effect of the core of it, but not the star of the show.
    I love to debate theory and re-interpret and have original ideas. However, before we get too far into this, we probably need to figure out what basic premise we are working with.

    What sources do YOU study for enneagram? Where did you build your understanding of an enneagram 8? Is it based on books & sources, or your experience on a website, or is it based on lust & vengeance, or what? We can't really have a conversation about what an 8 "is" if we're not agreeing on a basic premise, so that source and reference point needs to be mentioned.

    I'm not saying this to disqualify your points. You are making some interesting points and arguments. I just genuinely want to know what angle you are coming from in terms of your understanding of 8 and enneagram in general.

    sadism is not at the heart of what we're about. Control is what we're trying to achieve.. at our best, we take control of the things that give us joy, and we accept the terms of control that are outside of our grasp. At our worst, we start throwing tantrums like children.. forcing control away from us, trying to take it in things we KNOW we cannot have it in, and worse.
    Then let us go back to the original question.
    What would you say is the difference between E8 and and E1?

    Also, what would you say is the difference between E8 and E7?

    Another question: if at our worst we throw tantrums and at our best we take control, how would you explain the disintegration to 5 and the integration to 2? How does this manifest in an 8, in general, and how does it manifest in you?

    Sadism comes with that territory.. but it is not at the heart of it. It's a stepping stone on the way down.. I fear our level of ill health is far more dismal than mere sadism and anti-socialism.
    Worse than that?! What could be worse? =p

    What do you think is at the heart of us then, and why do you think it's worse?

    What does lust mean to you?

    Type 8s are often dictated as self-sacrificing at their best.. as if we finally achieved our goal of over-coming our self-preserving ways by saving others and putting ourselves in potentially great peril (either physically, in career situations, etc.) for the overall good of others. It is a disastrous read, and leaves little hope for the average person that happens to be a type 8.
    Well, it makes sense within the system. What you just described is an integration to the healthy parts of 2, in essence, and that is the basic premise of 8 within enneagram context: 8 integrates to 2; thus being more self-sacrificing, generous, vulnerable in love, etc.

    Either I'm struggling to stop terrorizing people around me, or I am struggling to continuously help others even at the expense of myself.. there is no balance in these descriptions. There is no breath of fresh air, where one can maintain anything. Self-awareness is a life-long journey.. but there is no stage of maintaining one's self in the type 8 descriptions. We are always wrong, or always struggling to stop being wrong.
    Do you see that balance in the other type descriptions?

    This is sort of true, and I had the same reaction when I first read it, but did you read the rest of the book? There's very little of that for the other types. If you want that spiritual growth lesson, read Maitri. Maitri does give a very flattering description of 8 compared to Naranjo, and shows how to grow spiritually. Have you read that?


    Because this is false security. There is no pure selfishness without these other concepts. You cannot just decide "Well, that trash can is full, so I can throw this paper cup down if I want. They didn't leave their trash cans open for me to do the right thing, and I'm not going to carry trash around for another few miles before finding another can." You're making more work for someone else somewhere, you're hurting the environment--everything you do has an impact on those around you. There is no selfishness without hurting others in some way, shape, or form. Sometimes it is necessary to be selfish, but that does not mean it didn't hurt the other party.

    Say someone with no where to go (due to their own crappy decisions) asks you to stay at your place. You agree, but under certain terms. They fail to meet those terms, so you have to throw them out, otherwise they're mistaking your kindness as weakness. Even though you are being selfish in that regard, it isn't necessarily bad.. infact, it is something many people would do. But it also is to the detriment of the other party whether it is overall bad or not. We all must pick and choose our battles of selfishness.. if you could hold your bowels and use a facility that is in order, why would you just say, "No, fuck that, I want to use this one and I'm not going out of my way for others just because this is all fucked up"? It doesn't make any sense. In the trash example.. I would secure my trash and carry it until I found another receptacle suitable enough to deposit it in, even if that mean leaving it in my car until I got home, or walking into a place out of my way.

    Nothing is without consequence.
    This is true. That is why I equated that selfishness with sadism. Because in the wider picture, what feels to me like selfishness is actually having consequences which hurt others. And deep down, I would know that, but when I'm unhealthy I would still take what I want for myself, in some situations, while being magnanimous and even generous in other situations with people I consider "on my side" or who I trust. This behavior is congruent with what I've read about the sickness of type 8, the sadism, the lust & vengeance, the view of things as a dog-eat-dog world, etc.

    So I do wonder: when you're unhealthy, would you think through all the consequences, the way you did here?
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  4. #44
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    For the record; Naranjo describes 5s pretty much as unemotional and apathetic robots hell-bent on applying nihilism to life because we're so sensitive and emotional that pretending to be anything else we'd lose our minds. I am not sure I find that description overly flattering by any means.

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  5. #45
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    My father says by contrast that he has ideas for books, but he doesn't have the patience to sit and write it. He also has the idea to play music, but he doesn't have the patience to organize. But when he is doing something, for a relatively short period of time, he is pretty intensely focused.
    That sounds like me when I'm disintegrated, haha, which is probably more often than I care to admit. I don't have the patience or the discipline. When left to my own devices, I rarely finish anything.

  6. #46
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    For the record; Naranjo describes 5s pretty much as unemotional and apathetic robots hell-bent on applying nihilism to life because we're so sensitive and emotional that pretending to be anything else we'd lose our minds. I am not sure I find that description overly flattering by any means.
    No one is spared from Naranjo. Naranjo can go piss up a rope. XD

  7. #47
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    No one is spared from Naranjo. Naranjo can go piss up a rope. XD
    Indeed. I think I should go find some golden quotes of his just to prove the point XD

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  8. #48
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Neediness in ennea-type V is deeply hidden in the psyche, behind the veil of indifference, resignation, stoic renunciation.
    "Meanness" with its connotation of an unknowing failure to give would come closer to capturing the dominant aspect of ennea-type V strategy to face the world: self-distancing and the giving up of relationships. Still better, however, is to speak of being detached, withdrawn, autistic, and schizoid.
    The symbol of aloof retentiveness has not only been observed but also received much attention in contemporary psychology.
    When in his study of schizophrenic patients at his clinic he described the syndrome that he proposed to call schizoid, the following were the main group of traits he observed to be the most frequent:

    1. Unsociable, quiet, reserved, serious (humorless)

    2. Timid, shy, with fine feelings, sensitive, nervous, excitable, fond of nature and books
    3. Pliable, kindly, honest, indifferent, silent
    He says, "we must say: the schizoid temperament lies between the extremes of excitability and dullness, in the same way a cycloid temperament lies between the extremes of cheerfulness and sadness."
    Kretschmer had the merit of pointing out the polarity between the hypersensitivity and insensitivity in this personality: sometimes it is one or the other that is the chief characteristic, while in others an alternation or a transition from early "hyperaesthesia" to late apathy.
    [Citing Kretschmer]: "He alone, however, has the key to the schizoid temperament who has clearly recognized that the majority of schizoids are not either over-sensitive or cold, but they are sensitive and cold at the same time, and, indeed, in quite different relational mixtures."
    [Citing Kretschmer]: "Out of our schizoid material we can form a continuous series, beginning with what I call the 'Hölderin type,' those extremely sensitive, abnormally tender, constantly wounded, mimosa-like natures, who are 'all-nerves' - and winding up to those cold, almost lifeless ruins left by the ravages of a severe attack of dementia praecox, who glimmer dimly in the corner of of the asylum, dull-witted as cows."
    The unsociable (Or "autistic") characteristic of his schizoid is something that could be understood either in relation to hypersensitivity or sensitivity towards others, as is the case of those sensitive natures that "seek as far as possible to avoid and deaden all stimulation from the outside; they close the shutters of their houses, in order to lead a dream-life fantastic, poor in deeds and rich in thought (Hölderin) in the soft muffled gloom of the interior.
    These are just the first couple of pages. I don't know about you, but I can't say I find these descriptions overly flattering. While I realize they are also exaggerations that's kind of the point. The message wouldn't be as powerful if he didn't paint such a bleak picture of each type.

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  9. #49
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    So they're both angry types - issues tend to revolve around physical presence and the expulsion of energy. It's all in the gut.

    • 8s have energy coming out of every orifice - anger is positive, it fills the room and gets things moving. It proves you're alive. When egotistical, there's an over-identification with that boisterousness and a sense of entitled toward it (hence the "lust" and "sadistic" qualifiers).
    • 1s are tough to get a grip on. They have the same energy, but it comes across as far more rigid and aloof. It's less explosive, but no less direct. It's not about being larger than life, it's about knowing the best place to put your energy toward. There can be a very judgemental attitude, especially towards "right" and "wrong" behaviour.

    Any good?
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  10. #50
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    as for the OP, I'd never leave somewhere a bigger mess when the option of reporting the situation to the management and then watching as they clean and swishing in as soon as they have finished exists... I've done that on many occasions... fuckers had better clean me a restroom or there will be PROBLEMS! (and by problems I mean me getting other people present pissed off about the situation as well... what's more fun than inciting an angry mob?)

    as for taking what the world has taken from me, that's just stupid... I didn't start out with shit so how can I take nothing back?

    and to the point of being a sadistic bastard that generally takes too much effort unless someone has REALLY crossed the line and needs to be set straight... and it takes quite a bit to earn my full vengeance raining down on them (and it is truly glorious when it happens, if I do say so myself!), otherwise I happily stick to my position of being an opportunist with a heart (I won't screw you over if you don't deserve it, but if you do...). I just want to get through life and I don't require all that much
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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