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  1. #21
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    How would you define sadism?

    Also, no one accused you of typing yourself because 8's are badass leaders.
    Lol yeah I know nobody accused me. I was being sarcastic about the use of enneagram. I could have used anyone as an example but I chose myself so as not to offend. =p

    Sadism. Well, this is a whole other topic. I think I will start a thread about it, because I could go on about this for a while and I'd actually be very interested to hear your thoughts as well as other 8s.
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  2. #22
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    I am sorry it was so offensive to some of you, but it made sense in my head at the time.
    Don't worry, we love heated discussions here in typoc. If anything, you deserve a 'thank you'.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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  3. #23
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    @Maybe

    woah there, relax gurl.

    I read naranjo. It describes the NEUROSES of the types, not how the type is on a daily basis. So when an unhealthy person gets unhealthily unhealthy and unhealthful, they become sadistic and sociopathic.

    This doesn't mean I walk around with a hightened emotional threshold and shark eyes bullying people all the time. It just means if things devolve, I'll get that way.
    I also wish to respond to this because I think this shows an underlying misunderstanding of the system. It's actually meant to describe your day-to-day life and how you manage life in general. It's about unconscious drives that push you into thinking or behaving a certain way. If my avarice didn't occur on a daily basis I wouldn't be a 5. It must be a constant factor and a part of your person for it to be your core type in my opinion.

    Also, it's not about exaggerations or extreme levels of unhealth but simply coping mechanisms. 4s are masochists because they ultimately revel in their own suffering. This doesn't mean that all 4s are emo and depressed. Rather, it's about an internal drive that deep down exists in all 4s where they see themselves as suffering because of envy as a constant factor in their life.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  4. #24
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Well, I hated Naranjo before, and here are some more reasons to hate him.

    Also, I've heard a LOT of criticism of his treatment of Type 8 before, on the forum. Especially from @kyuuei, but I know there were others who criticized it.

    Edit: I remain skeptical, but I'll wait on more 8 input. No reason for me to disagree if most 8s see themselves as internally sadistic.
    They can criticize it all they want but it's still basic enneagram theory.

    There's no LUST without SADISM. Lust is about taking back what the world took from you. It's about triumph over adversity. It's not about sex and passion alone - that's gluttony.

    If you take back from the world what it took from you, you're a sadist. If you want to triumph over adversity, as a basic nature, you're a sadist. You're willing to 'take for yourself' at any cost; at worst. That's connected to lust & innocence. The reason innocence is a virtue of type 8 is because it gets you out of your sadism; brings you back to a state of having no motives and being away from your perception of the world as a dog eat dog place where the fittest survive.

    So you can't just weed out "sadism" and say you don't like Naranjo's treatment. I don't relate to everything in Naranjo. There's a portion about conning, and I've never conned anyone; I've always been balls out and straght forward, for all the other shit that I've done. There are parts of his treatment that I don't like, too. However, weeding out SADISM is impossible unless you also remove the vice of lust & the passion of vengeance & the virtue of innocence which are what make up type 8 in any text you choose. If you have Lust as a vice you also have sadism; it's abecedarian, if you know the first thing about psychology.

    I don't like Naranjo's treatment of 8 either, of course. All of the other books tickle my pickle and that one cuts me down to size. I don't like to see that shit in myself and it hurts my stomach and makes me say "NO! I'm not like that!" I've never thought of myself as rebellious, for instance. I'm not rebellious or compliant; I just do my own thing. But when you look deeper into what Naranjo writes about a type 8's rebellion, it's basically exactly what I described; a rebellion against any imposed order, in order to retain autonomy and do exactly as they please, answering to no one. I could go on about this all day. The treatment Naranjo gives to 8s is crude, ugly, and intense. But it's still the basic concept: sadism.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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  5. #25
    Fair and Square Flatlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Well, I hated Naranjo before, and here are some more reasons to hate him.

    Also, I've heard a LOT of criticism of his treatment of Type 8 before, on the forum. Especially from @kyuuei, but I know there were others who criticized it.

    Edit: I remain skeptical, but I'll wait on more 8 input. No reason for me to disagree if most 8s see themselves as internally sadistic.
    Curious: Why did/do you hate him?

    And how do you know that the 8s you're getting input from are necessarily accurately typed? What source/reasoning do you use?
    Thinking must serve the thinker.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I also wish to respond to this because I think this shows an underlying misunderstanding of the system. It's actually meant to describe your day-to-day life and how you manage life in general. It's about unconscious drives that push you into thinking or behaving a certain way. If my avarice didn't occur on a daily basis I wouldn't be a 5. It must be a constant factor and a part of your person for it to be your core type in my opinion.

    Also, it's not about exaggerations or extreme levels of unhealth but simply coping mechanisms. 4s are masochists because they ultimately revel in their own suffering. This doesn't mean that all 4s are emo and depressed. Rather, it's about an internal drive that deep down exists in all 4s where they see themselves as suffering because of envy as a constant factor in their life.
    Wait so my understanding is off? or are you just being hypothetical?

  7. #27
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Don't worry, we love heated discussions here in typoc. If anything, you deserve a 'thank you'.
    Nice. =)

    I love heated discussions too, and I don't normally worry about offending others. As you can probably glean from the nature of the post. But, it was a rather... visceral topic and I felt like if I kept going I'd be explaining myself for all eternity so... it was silly. =p Thanks for being cool though.
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  8. #28
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I don't understand what the definitions used to explain the behavior has anything to do whether it's PC or not? I also think the part in bold is a projection on your part. Reciprocity or acts of reciprocity were never mentioned and is not the topic of this thread so I fail to see the relevance.


    Read Naranjo then. It's related because sadistic behavior is about covering senses of shame and so on.

    She never mentioned fear or authority so I am not sure why you're bringing this up. You're not answering her questions; you're operating based on assumptions.
    I think you confuse 8s with 6s.
    First you need to realize that Naranjo is not God. After that, we may be able to have a talk about 'operating based on assumptions'.

    I'm not gonna provide more material for you to nitpick over.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    They can criticize it all they want but it's still basic enneagram theory.

    There's no LUST without SADISM. Lust is about taking back what the world took from you. It's about triumph over adversity. It's not about sex and passion alone - that's gluttony.

    If you take back from the world what it took from you, you're a sadist. If you want to triumph over adversity, as a basic nature, you're a sadist. You're willing to 'take for yourself' at any cost; at worst. That's connected to lust & innocence. The reason innocence is a virtue of type 8 is because it gets you out of your sadism; brings you back to a state of having no motives and being away from your perception of the world as a dog eat dog place where the fittest survive.

    So you can't just weed out "sadism" and say you don't like Naranjo's treatment. I don't relate to everything in Naranjo. There's a portion about conning, and I've never conned anyone; I've always been balls out and straght forward, for all the other shit that I've done. There are parts of his treatment that I don't like, too. However, weeding out SADISM is impossible unless you also remove the vice of lust & the passion of vengeance & the virtue of innocence which are what make up type 8 in any text you choose. If you have Lust as a vice you also have sadism; it's abecedarian, if you know the first thing about psychology.

    I don't like Naranjo's treatment of 8 either, of course. All of the other books tickle my pickle and that one cuts me down to size. I don't like to see that shit in myself and it hurts my stomach and makes me say "NO! I'm not like that!" I've never thought of myself as rebellious, for instance. I'm not rebellious or compliant; I just do my own thing. But when you look deeper into what Naranjo writes about a type 8's rebellion, it's basically exactly what I described; a rebellion against any imposed order, in order to retain autonomy and do exactly as they please, answering to no one. I could go on about this all day. The treatment Naranjo gives to 8s is crude, ugly, and intense. But it's still the basic concept: sadism.
    so... when I'm angry, and in my fit of rage I go buy 6 pounds of mac'and'cheese and blast velvet acid christ... I'm taking back what the world took from me?

  10. #30
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    First you need to realize that Naranjo is not God. After that, we may be able to have a talk about 'operating based on assumptions'.
    I never claimed Naranjo is god. Maybe did however work with the definition of 8 provided by him so if you don't agree with that it makes more sense if you'd just say you don't agree with Naranjo then to me.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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