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  1. #11
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    @Maybe

    I think your example has more to do with Si than enneagram.
    This could be the case. I have inferior Si.

    Check the above post too. I think the example I used was overstated and got a bit blown out of proportion what I meant by it. I'm gonna try to take this thread down =p because I just don't think the case was presented correctly - my fault.
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  2. #12
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    However, I've yet to spar an E1. So I don't know how that would turn out.
    I'm not sure, but treating it like a thought experiment, I wonder if it'd be like this: A nod of the head, face either stoic or with a cocky half-smile, and a curt comment: something like, "May the best man win." Then, if they lose, they fume internally but acknowledge externally that you're better than them -- whereas if they win, they internally acknowledge that they're better than you, and externally shake your hand to tell you that you did a good job too.

    Edit: I'm not sure if I'd call Eights sadists by nature. More so than Ones, maybe, but I know some very nice Eights, like @Wind-Up Rex, who I would never call sadistic. Unless you agree with that definition of Eight-ish "sadism", Rex?
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  3. #13
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    8's are not sadistic by nature. All the negative qualities of an 8 are generated by anger, which is also generated by a sense of rejection, alienation, and other things. The sadism is often when happens when the 8 has essentially given up on the thought that other humans are worth their oxygen.

    In the case of ESTP 8's, the sadism comes out when the ESTP is angry or has finally given up and consciously or unconsciously decided that love is an unattainable prospect.

  4. #14
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I'm not sure, but treating it like a thought experiment, I wonder if it'd be like this: A nod of the head, face either stoic or with a cocky half-smile, and a curt comment: something like, "May the best man win." Then, if they lose, they fume internally but acknowledge externally that you're better than them -- whereas if they win, they internally acknowledge that they're better than you, and externally shake your hand to tell you that you did a good job too.

    Edit: I'm not sure if I'd call Eights sadists by nature. More so than Ones, maybe, but I know some very nice Eights, like @Wind-Up Rex, who I would never call sadistic. Unless you agree with that definition of Eight-ish "sadism", Rex?
    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    8's are not sadistic by nature. All the negative qualities of an 8 are generated by anger, which is also generated by a sense of rejection, alienation, and other things. The sadism is often when happens when the 8 has essentially given up on the thought that other humans are worth their oxygen.
    You guys need to brush up on your reading.

    Naranjo, who is one of the most respected sources for enneagram, if not THE source, has a chapter about each enneagram type. These are what they are:

    Type 1: Obsessive-perfectionist
    Type 2: Histrionic Personality
    Type 3: Hysterical Personality/ The marketing Orientation
    Type 4: Masochistic Personality & Envy
    Type 5: Pathological Detachment/ Schizoid
    Type 6: Paranoid/ Cowardice
    Type 7: Narcissistic Personality
    Type 8: The Sadistic Personality & Lust & Anti-social personality
    Type 9: Psycho-spiritual Laziness


    Naranjo spares nobody. If anything, the title of Type 1 is the least offensive.
    But saying that 8s are not sadistic is completely going against basic enneagram theory. Type 8 IS the sadistic personality.

    That being said, I get no pleasure out of hurting others just for its own sake. The meaning of sadism is more complex than that. I did not type at 8 because it's cool or because 8s are badasses and leaders. Enneagram is about your core motives and fears and the fucked up compulsions underlying your personality.

    If you don't believe me, go and look up Naranjo on enneagram and see what he has to say. I am all for re-interpretation and for hearing opinions, but if you're going to completely deny the basic fundamentals of enneagram, why study the system at all? It's like studying math and saying that 2 + 2 isn't 4.

    @EJCC, despite the offensiveness of this post, I am also kind, caring, and don't come off like a 'sadistic' person. Nobody who knows me would say I'm mean or cruel or anything of the sort. However if you dig way under my personality those tendencies are there. That will be the case with anyone of any type. They might be mature, get past their compulsions, but those basic tendencies are there or else they're mistyped. Saying that @Wind-Up Rex isn't sadistic, is, in essence, accusing her of being mistyped. This is what enneagram *means* - so she may be the nicest person in the world but those underlying tendencies and patterns of the sadist are there if she's an 8.

    However, it's worth mentioning, none of the other enneagram patterns are any better. If you want to glorify yourself and your goodness, enneagram is not for you. It's about seeing the ugly, the gross, the disgusting behaviors and owning up and weeding them out.
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  5. #15
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Well, I hated Naranjo before, and here are some more reasons to hate him.

    Also, I've heard a LOT of criticism of his treatment of Type 8 before, on the forum. Especially from @kyuuei, but I know there were others who criticized it.

    Edit: I remain skeptical, but I'll wait on more 8 input. No reason for me to disagree if most 8s see themselves as internally sadistic.
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  6. #16
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    @Maybe

    woah there, relax gurl.

    I read naranjo. It describes the NEUROSES of the types, not how the type is on a daily basis. So when an unhealthy person gets unhealthily unhealthy and unhealthful, they become sadistic and sociopathic.

    This doesn't mean I walk around with a hightened emotional threshold and shark eyes bullying people all the time. It just means if things devolve, I'll get that way.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Disagreed. It was basically a silly form of payback. And wanting revenge (politically incorrect term) or justice (politically correct term) doesn't make anyone a sadist, as every intelligent human being values reciprocity.
    I don't understand what the definitions used to explain the behavior has anything to do whether it's PC or not? I also think the part in bold is a projection on your part. Reciprocity or acts of reciprocity were never mentioned and is not the topic of this thread so I fail to see the relevance.
    And I don't think sadism is related to shame.
    Read Naranjo then. It's related because sadistic behavior is about covering senses of shame and so on.

    There is more to life than fear and authority - not everything has to revolve around these things for 6s. Problem is cp 6s deal with frustration/anger very poorly, so their coping mechanisms are fairly irrational.
    She never mentioned fear or authority so I am not sure why you're bringing this up. You're not answering her questions; you're operating based on assumptions.

    Also, E8 might be the the least likely type to be content with a quiet anonymous protest in a restroom - they're pretty loud when revolted.
    I think you confuse 8s with 6s.

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  8. #18
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    @Maybe

    I think your example has more to do with Si than enneagram. And your use of the word "sadism" seems kinda strange to me.

    E8 Sadism is when an 8 spars you and says, "I will fucking destroy you, everything I can do far outweighs anything you could do."
    Not necessarily. CP6s are prone to do this a lot. 8s don't need to prove that they can destroy people by taunting them since they already know so they just do it when required.
    However, I've yet to spar an E1. So I don't know how they fight. They'd probably keep their mouth shut or be pretty noncompetitive.
    1s can be very competitive. They just don't show it in the same way.

    As a dude, if I went into a dirty gas station bathroom, I would wipe the toilet seat, then I would put a couple layers of toilet paper onto the seat and do what I gotta do and I wouldn't complain about it. However, I think this also has to do with SLE Si ignoring, and the fact that dirty uncomfortable living conditions are something that ESXP's naturally tuned out when need be. I would primarily be concerned with avoiding std's or something.
    Missing the point. She already addressed that not everyone is going to act or think or behave the same way. The example she provided was more to exemplify the nature of sadism, vengeance and lust and how it contrasts to 1 logic.

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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    That being said, I get no pleasure out of hurting others just for its own sake. The meaning of sadism is more complex than that. I did not type at 8 because it's cool or because 8s are badasses and leaders. Enneagram is about your core motives and fears and the fucked up compulsions underlying your personality.
    How would you define sadism?

    Also, no one accused you of typing yourself because 8's are badass leaders.

  10. #20
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    @Maybe

    woah there, relax gurl.

    I read naranjo. It describes the NEUROSES of the types, not how the type is on a daily basis. So when an unhealthy person gets unhealthily unhealthy and unhealthful, they become sadistic and sociopathic.

    This doesn't mean I walk around with a hightened emotional threshold and shark eyes bullying people all the time. It just means if things devolve, I'll get that way.
    Agreed. Like I said to @EJCC - I don't walk around in destructive mode. I've got a healthy relationship with my family, friends I've been friends with all my life, a loving romantic partner, and I am able to hold a job when I'm physically healthy (I have a chronic illness). My grades in school were always excellent and my performance at work was always tops. I am not anti-authority, anti-world, fuck-everyone criminal. But underneath all of my values and my growth, maturity, choices; I'm still a sadist. This was difficult to come to terms with.

    But I wouldn't say that the behaviors are not always there. The potential is always there. The idea is to weed out the bad stuff in your personality over time so that you own your personality, rather than it owning you, so to speak. That doesn't happen by denying that the basic tendencies are always inside of us.

    So yes, I agree with you, in essence.
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