It just so happens the 8s get the most 'unhealthy' types according to him.
Yeah but that's the point of the book, and is the case for any type. If you want to read about how awesome you are, enneagram and Naranjo is a bit extraneous. The idea is to recognize the *underlying tendencies* in ourselves. Like I said, I don't go around acting like a destructive asshole. Aside from a short period when I was very traumatized, I have never had any trouble with the law, holding jobs, having relationships, being close to my family etc. But I will not sit and claim that the sadistic tendency is eradicated just because I haven't done any majorly sadistic thing in years. Self-awareness is not something to be lazy about once it's "accomplished." It's a life-long pursuit.
I am very much so against his writings in regards to the type 8.. Not only does he make them sound way too good to be true when they are 'healthy' (and what would be described to me as being very unhealthy in that regard) but that they are the worst of the worst when they are unhealthy.. this huge pendulum swinging left and right in extremes with no sense of middle ground. In comparison to the other types, he definitely places a very huge emphasis on this type for some reason. Either I have a super hero complex at my best, or I am a sadistic psychopath at my worst.. so all I am trying to do with my life is struggle as hard as I can to become average? It doesn't make any sense. I think he means well, but he words things very poorly and people put way too much stock into his teachings.
He did not claim a super-hero "complex" at your best. That sort of complex is what he'd describe for type 7 Narcissist.
Precisely. Even if that guy WAS on the mark with his writings, 8s are not sadistic.. they are prone to sadistic tendencies.
I cannot try to justify his writings without face palming.. but if I were to try to give a level of sadism that does manifest in my life without making me a sadistic person:
- I like seeing justice served. I do not feel bad, or pity, those who are in the position they are because they made poor decisions and are paying for them. (On the opposite side.. I like to see people fall, pay for their crimes, accept those terms, and rise up from the ashes.)
- When I went to war.. I did not feel sympathy for my enemy, nor the people who supported them.
- When I heard my ex-boyfriend was diagnosed with HPV after he degraded into a hussy because of our break up, I got a hint of satisfaction in that. If he had been more careful and not used drugs like I advised him, it wouldn't have happened that way.
- When I have to smoke soldiers because they're acting like asses, I get great satisfaction in it. 'Let the encouragement sink in!'
- I like seeing people get what they 'deserve'.. Though this isn't even as prominent as it was when I was a child. The whole concept of getting even is starting to be an exhausting one. Working around it all seems to serve me better lately.
Even the stuff you listed here is like "me at my worst," aside from the traumatic period I mentioned when my worst behaviors came out. Basically, what I was trying to say in my example is exactly this:
- I like seeing justice served. I do not feel bad, or pity, those who are in the position they are because they made poor decisions and are paying for them. (On the opposite side.. I like to see people fall, pay for their crimes, accept those terms, and rise up from the ashes.)
Now of course I'm not saying that leaving the bathroom gross is equivalent to a crime like raping a child. That's why it was a stupid over-stated example and I wanted to take the thread down. But all that I'm saying is, if your basic core is 8, then you have that sadistic tendency. Again, and I can't repeat this enough, it's a tendency and a thought pattern at best, at this point in my life, like you are explaining here. I'd still say I'm a sadistic personality though, in the context of enneagram, because at my worst I boil down to those tendencies. Therefore it's always IN me, but I mature and move past certain aspects, and keep others in check, and so forth.
In the example used, I would be disgusted with the patrons before me that failed to report the facilities dismal condition sooner, and I would promptly try to 'right' it myself so that I could have a facility to use. If the owner fails to immediately rectify the problem, then I would probably reward him with a crappy review online, and never going to the establishment again.
Yeah I would probably not try to "right" it - that's the difference. I also have two withdrawn types in my tritype and a chronic illness which left me speaking in a whisper, and an SO blindspot so dealing with other people is not my favorite thing. Therefore I'm more selfish in this regard. That's another reason it was a shitty example.
My focus is on control. I don't feel in control by 'punishing' the owner and making the mess even bigger for clean-up. I don't feel like I fixed the situation by keeping the facilities dirty for others with the owners potentially blissfully unaware of the conditions. I have an almost exhausting need to fix things that come my way, so that I have a degree of control on those situations as they arise in my life.
I would get a great amount of satisfaction at either leaving a crappy review, or knowing that it was my word that caused the immediate clean up so that I may use the facilities in peace.
See this is the difference - I don't even need that *satisfaction* of righting the situation in any way or writing a review. However I can't emphasize enough - I was not PUNISHING the owner by making a bigger clean-up. This is why I took the example down- everyone seemed to interpret it that way, so it was probably my fault. But all that I meant was, if there was no other bathroom to use, I would still do my thing. I would not TRY to mess it up further for revenge, but I would do what I need to do, and I wouldn't feel bad if I did mess it up, either. However in a clean facility, I leave it clean, just like I found it. There's no satisfaction in revenge or "righting the situation" for me. My reaction was entirely, utterly self-serving and selfish. I did my thing, if I messed it up more, well that's your problem because I never woulda been forced to do that if it were clean in the first place. It's so dirty that I can't clean it without dirtying *myself* so... at that point, I don't feel guilty if I did what *I* needed to do and *you* didn't do your job. That has nothing to do with righting, fixing, avenging, or making a point. It just has to do with taking what I need and not feeling guilty because they basically asked for it by presenting those conditions.
Sigh.. why is it so hard for people to understand pure and utter selfishness with no ulterior motive, no point to prove, no justice, no "righting," and nothing but a will to get exactly what you want ? Is this really that hard to swallow?? =p
I think the thread isn't worth deleting, it has value in it.. I think the example used was just a poor one.
That it was and I am sorry for the confusion. A couple of good posts have gathered here so maybe they won't delete it. But, I'm thinking of starting another thread on sadism, anyhow. That's basically what this thread turned into. =p
Anyway- [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] - all that being said, your concerns about Naranjo paralleled my own when I read it. I think the key difference in 'syntax' is that I'm accepting that this tendency is an underlying, constant presence in a person. It's not that I didn't notice a lot of the same things as you, when I read it, and say "Wtf." I just accepted the premise that we all have such potentials deep down and overcome it or indulge it to varying degrees.
