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  1. #1
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    Default 8s: Vengeance & Evening the Score

    Let's talk about vengeance.

    If you have any thoughts on the topic, feel free to post them here. I have some specific questions, but I'd love to hear your input regardless of whether you decide to address these questions specifically. Also feel free to address those questions that appeal to you and ignore the others.

    If you know your tritype and variants, please list them. Also, I'd love to hear from other types besides 8s.

    _____________________________________________

    How do you relate to the type 8 passion for vengeance?

    Do you like to watch others suffer, or do you just feel like you're "evening the score?"

    Would anyone be willing to share concrete examples or stories of how this has played out in your life?

    If you've seen vengeful patterns in yourself, have you done anything to try to fix this behavior, or do you see it as a good thing, a self-protective mechanism you would never want to change?

    Has this calmed or changed over the course of your life?

    Do you see vengeance and sadism in your behaviors as a young child?

    If you get revenge or "even the score," how do you feel afterwards?

    Has this sort of behavior or thinking caused problems in your life or in your relationships?

    Have you used your enneagram study to help you recognize and reconcile some of your vengeance patterns? Was it easy for you to see vengeance in yourself?

    Do you ever feel disgusted with yourself for being cruel or for how angry you get?

    Would you consider your vengeance more 'angry' or 'cold-hearted?'

    Does your idea of "evening the score" apply to yourself, too? In other words, if you fuck up, do you feel like it's fair for the other person to expect you to own up to what you did? Are you willing to apologize and earn back their respect in this instance?
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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  2. #2
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    8wX - 5w6 - 4w3 Sx/Sp

    How do you relate to the type 8 passion for vengeance?
    I didn't consciously consider myself "vengeful," but I realize now that I've always been of the mindset that if I don't get what I deserve, I will have to take it for myself; and if I didn't, I would be weak or allowing someone to walk all over me or deluding myself.

    Do you like to watch others suffer, or do you just feel like you're "evening the score?"
    I don't get any conscious pleasure out of watching someone else suffer, but I compulsively even the score, sometimes without even realizing that is what I'm doing.

    Would anyone be willing to share concrete examples or stories of how this has played out in your life?
    I will get back to this, but I realized one thing interesting: I tend to get revenge on the world rather than get revenge on the specific person. If someone does something to me and it really pisses me off and hurts me, I might just coldly cut them off, but find myself taking back from the world what was taken from me. For instance, during a very unhealthy period after a trauma, I fell in love with a guy. We had a great time but he was my first love, and I was the 4th virgin he had been with. After me, he went on to the next virgin. Instead of feeling humiliated or shamed or something, I just turned into a more cold sexual creature, going for what I want and then leaving it behind after the conquest. Once I had been with four male virgins, somehow I lost interest in the whole virgin thing. Strange, I know; and I did not even see this pattern in myself until I looked back and said, "WTF?" But I've done things like this more than once. The world does something to me, I do it back to the world, without realizing it. However, I'll re-emphasize that I do not *always* behave this way to such a degree and this was in a VERY unhealthy period after a very big trauma.

    If you've seen vengeful patterns in yourself, have you done anything to try to fix this behavior, or do you see it as a good thing, a self-protective mechanism you would never want to change?
    The idea of letting someone "walk all over me" disgusts me and seems weak, and I wouldn't change my tendency to stand up for myself. Usually I handle this by telling someone directly what I'm upset about. If they don't acknowledge this and give me respect and face it, my next move would usually be to cut them off or to put them in a "you don't exist" category, meaning, I'd stop being nice and generous like I was before, and simply regard them as a nuicance that I have to deal with in any way possible in order to get my way. I can be forgiving, TRULY and completely, but someone has to earn it. The idea of being a victim of someone else's abuse is abhorrent to me. But, I am trying to work on seeing through my own anger so that I can more easily see another person's point of view and retain more objectivity.

    Has this calmed or changed over the course of your life?

    I am not sure.

    Do you see vengeance and sadism in your behaviors as a young child?
    I was sadistic & cruel to my younger brother as a kid, and he didn't deserve it. Looking back on this, I always used to say I am not sadistic at heart, and thought this is just "how siblings are," until later on when I realized that not every older sibling behaves this way to the extreme that I did. When I was about 9, I turned to my parents and said, "I'm not going to be mean to him anymore." I never was again. All my life since then I've gone out of my way to be nicer to him than anyone else. I still won't let him walk all over me (and he wouldn't - he's sweet) .. but I'll do things like do his dishes every morning since we live together and he works really late. For anyone else, I'd be up their ass telling them to take responsibility for themselves.

    If you get revenge or "even the score," how do you feel afterwards?
    Great. Strong. =/

    Has this sort of behavior or thinking caused problems in your life or in your relationships?
    I see it as a bigger potential problem if I were to put up with the behavior that turned me off and inspired me to behave this way, but yes, it has. For instance, I don't have stories of staying too long in an abusive scenario (the first small sign of abuse gets a warning, and at the second sign I'm out the door) - but I have a good amount of stories where I broke someone else's heart into tiny pieces because they pissed me off or disgusted me or I thought they were weak, and I thought they were no longer worth my time, and left them abruptly. I used to do this and still continue to use the person for physical pleasure (in a very straight-forward manner, like an agreement) and when they would complain that they want me back or they still love me, I would shrug and feel nothing, and tell them they were broaching the agreement. This did not register as "revenge" in my mind: it was simply practical, and honest. Now, in retrospect, I can see that it was a bit brutal.

    Have you used your enneagram study to help you recognize and reconcile some of your vengeance patterns? Was it easy for you to see vengeance in yourself?
    It was not easy for me to see. I mistyped at 5 and then 3 before 8, even though my 8ness was obvious to everyone who knows me and knows enneagram, and people kept suggesting it to me. I have not thought of myself as vengeful. Oddly enough, my sci-fi/ fantasy series that I've worked on all my life has majorly obvious revenge themes, and my song-writing often does, too; but since I don't go and beat people up or do things to make them miserable in real life, I never saw myself as vengeful at core. However, I can clearly see, upon closer examination, that the idea of NOT making sure that the "score is even" would not even occur to me. What I would see as "letting someone walk all over me" might be what someone else would see as forgiveness or empathy. That being said, I still do think I am forgiving, and I've kept my most valuable friendships for many years or through my whole life. I'm even friends with a few of my exes. I don't need to cut someone off entirely, but I need to be respected, and be sure that the relationship is equal and one of mutual respect.

    Do you ever feel disgusted with yourself for being cruel or for how angry you get?
    Sometimes in retrospect I look back and feel that I overreacted. But then I think about what the person did and I get angry all over again. I get much more disgusted with myself if I "sit back and take it," unfortunately.

    Would you consider your vengeance more 'angry' or 'cold-hearted?'
    If I get angry enough, I will then become cold-hearted. Someone goes from being a person I value and care about, to being the most fucked up asshole on the planet when I'm angry. But when I express my anger, I try to do it reasonably if it's someone I care for, and let them know what they did and why they hurt me, without having a temper tantrum. I'm much more direct and blunt than mean in my approach. Then, either they even the score (apologize, grovel, own up to their mistakes and seriously work on it, etc) or if it just keeps happening, I will decide they're not worth my time and cut them off or at least stop caring about them or 'giving' to them willingly. I don't need to see them suffer - and in some cases, I am even glad to hear they found happiness elsewhere - but I want them out of my way, and I move on. So it's much more cold hearted in the end.

    Does your idea of "evening the score" apply to yourself, too? In other words, if you fuck up, do you feel like it's fair for the other person to expect you to own up to what you did? Are you willing to apologize and earn back their respect in this instance?
    Yes. I respect anyone who can call me on my bullshit, who has no ulterior motive besides showing me that I was unfair to them, and who would expect me to treat them well. I would go out of my way to make it up to them if I thought I was honestly out of line.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

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    This warrants response, but I'm a little too busy to get to it right now.

    Online, specifically here, my Vengeance is much more angry than it is cold hearted (although that aspect is there as well).

    IRL it's almost entirely cold hearted (socially acceptable). Only very rarely does my vengeance IRL manifest itself publicly, when my ability to bottle it all fails.

    Getting angry here is a fantastic way to vent, and maintain my ice man ability to subsume my anger irl.

    On the whole, I lean far more towards cold hearted than angry.

  4. #4
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    This warrants response, but I'm a little too busy to get to it right now.

    Online, specifically here, my Vengeance is much more angry than it is cold hearted (although that aspect is there as well).

    IRL it's almost entirely cold hearted (socially acceptable). Only very rarely does my vengeance IRL manifest itself publicly, when my ability to bottle it all fails.

    Getting angry here is a fantastic way to vent, and maintain my ice man ability to subsume my anger irl.

    On the whole, I lean far more towards cold hearted than angry.
    Lol - I do this too - I pick fights on the internet - I used to do it on personalitycafe, and I've done it for years on my political page on facebook and I do get angry. Internet is a great way to blow off steam.

    But in real life it's more cold hearted.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

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    I used to be angry and vengeful.

    Then I went to the military where I was furious every day of my life.

    I don't want to live another day that way. Anytime I'm angry I get flashbacks of military life and its just too painful for me to continue doing. My friends actually call me out when I'm acting wierd, and I'll go to my room and meditate on the subject.

    When I was looking for used cars, I went full on douchebag toward the used car salesman to let him know I'm not going to put up with any of his bullshit. Sometimes its necessary, sometimes it isn't. I feel guilty afterward every time I do. However, some people deserve it and it feels damn good.

    The only recent tale of vengeance I have to give is, when I worked as a painter for 3 months end of last year, my boss would passive aggressively harass me every day so I would quit, because he was too much of a pussy to lower my paycheck or be upfront about the fact that he felt I was being paid too much. He would harass me every day so I would quit because either he was too much of a pussy to fire me, or perhaps there's some labor law getting in the way.

    Regardless, I got all of the other painters' business cards and told them I'd start my own painting company and pay them more than this douche bag. Several of them were actually cool with the idea. My boss FLIPPED OUT! His jittery hands and pacing back and forth talking to himself after yelling at me and stomping his feet saying "this is MY BUSINESS. THIS IS MY BUSINESS! MY BUSINESS!" That was all I needed to feel vindicated. I hope the fucking loser lost some sleep.

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    To answer your questions:

    How do you relate to the type 8 passion for vengeance?


    I think about it a lot but don't really act on it unless the opportunity presents itself. I don't have the mental capacity to think up elaborate plans. Nor do I have the ability to hold grudges. Once I take vengeance or feel vindicated, I no longer have a reason to hate the person.

    Do you like to watch others suffer, or do you just feel like you're "evening the score?"

    Yes and No. For that to happen, they would have had to have been a bully of some sort. Since I'm such a nice fucking guy, bullies are almost always prime targets of sadistic revenge.

    If you've seen vengeful patterns in yourself, have you done anything to try to fix this behavior, or do you see it as a good thing, a self-protective mechanism you would never want to change?

    Its a very good thing. When I settle the score it often sends a message and people don't mess with me after that. It proves a point, it asserts my needs, etc. Sure, the other person will be in pain, but they'll get over it.

    Has this calmed or changed over the course of your life?

    I've become more aggressive and assertive as time has gone on, because I realized I need to. I often feel guilty when I do it. But I've learned it must be done.

    Do you see vengeance and sadism in your behaviors as a young child?

    Sadism yes. I used to ruffle up my cat's fur because its eyes would get all big and adorable when it was pissed off at me. Idunno if that counts, lol. Otherwise, the sadism only happens with enemies until I feel vindicated. If there's a douche bag who's been pushing me or playing rough in sports, I'll get even and make a public spectacle and try to humiliate him to get even. In 3rd grade I once tripped a kid who was tripping everyone on my team. His entire mexican family was jumping up and down red in the face shouting at me on the side line. I turned toward all 50 of them and spanked my ass at them and stuck out my tongue. (Jesus christ I could have been killed!) Felt damn good making their whole stupid fucking team angry.

    If you get revenge or "even the score," how do you feel afterwards?

    Better. Usually I end up making my bullies cry. Then I just feel bad. I often have to remind myself that they deserved it.

    Has this sort of behavior or thinking caused problems in your life or in your relationships?

    Yes and no. a couple girls I dated told me, "You're terrifying because you never yell. I can never tell what you're going to do. That makes me uncomfortable." So I suppose women with no self esteem have difficulty dealing with it. Probably just the wrong people I guess.

    Have you used your enneagram study to help you recognize and reconcile some of your vengeance patterns? Was it easy for you to see vengeance in yourself?

    I never felt a need to stop the vengeance. Payback always feels great. And since I'm such a nice fucking guy, the people who deserve it, usually really fucking deserve it.

    Do you ever feel disgusted with yourself for being cruel or for how angry you get?

    Disgusted, no. Guilty, yes. It also depends who is watching me get angry. My loved ones and girlfriends in the past have gotten upset, even in tears, after seeing me angry, because they see someone who is hurt and was pushed to behave this way, my enemies see a war machine spewing hellfire and damnation.

    Would you consider your vengeance more 'angry' or 'cold-hearted?'

    Cold hearted sadism. "angry" almost never works. once you go full volume, what are you supposed to do if that shit doesn't work? You just went all out, you gave everything had to give. You have no cards left up your sleeve. Its time to drop out.

    Does your idea of "evening the score" apply to yourself, too? In other words, if you fuck up, do you feel like it's fair for the other person to expect you to own up to what you did? Are you willing to apologize and earn back their respect in this instance?

    I feel like I'm the only person on the planet who apologizes for being wrong. Though it usually takes someone yelling at me telling me what I did was fucked up or wrong, before I can realize I made a mistake. Lately, I've started ignoring most guilt trips and viewing myself as always right all the time. Fuck humility, it hasn't gotten me shit in life, and I'm always right unless I decide I'm wrong.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    How do you relate to the type 8 passion for vengeance?
    I didn't because I didn't see myself as vengeful until @Faceless Beauty pointed out that I appear to be.

    Do you like to watch others suffer, or do you just feel like you're "evening the score?"
    I can enjoy watching people suffer if I feel that they deserved it or just had it coming, which is pretty much the same as "evening the score" I guess.

    Would anyone be willing to share concrete examples or stories of how this has played out in your life?
    A recent example is how another member on Personality Cafe made it her mission to nitpick on every post I made pretty much and "correct" me and in general just being a dickhead. What I did was that I made up a plan to get back at her and get her off my back by contacting a mod for a separation agreement. The reason why I did this was because I knew there was no way in hell she could actually refrain herself from trying to attack me in some other way like through the means of other people or by passive aggressively thanking posts made by people who directly responded to me and disagreed with what I wrote. That way I knew she'd get an infraction eventually and if she continued, she'd get banned. And I got so much satisfaction out of that. Heck, just thinking about it gives me so much satisfaction. Especially because I know that my mere existence and that I didn't back down to her threats and attempts to control and intimidate me failed so I'll forever be the thorn in her side that won't go away. And that's again just so... satisfying. She totally deserved it and had it coming and I never treated her badly. She put herself in that position so she has to deal with the consequences.

    If you've seen vengeful patterns in yourself, have you done anything to try to fix this behavior, or do you see it as a good thing, a self-protective mechanism you would never want to change?
    I don't think my vengeful patterns are extreme enough being a 5 core so I don't see them as an issue I guess. Or maybe they are an issue but since I don't see it like that... I also fail to see why I need to fix it. In a way yes, I think it's necessary as a means for survival or I'd have people always drive over me and that's just weak.

    Has this calmed or changed over the course of your life?
    Not sure since I'm not a core 8.

    Do you see vengeance and sadism in your behaviors as a young child?
    Not sure. I don't remember my childhood well. I did however have vengeful and a sadistic mindset like I wanted to kill people at my school and such. Just really see them suffer.

    If you get revenge or "even the score," how do you feel afterwards?
    I feel good, powerful, strong, invincible even. Like I can do anything.

    Has this sort of behavior or thinking caused problems in your life or in your relationships?
    Not sure.

    Have you used your enneagram study to help you recognize and reconcile some of your vengeance patterns? Was it easy for you to see vengeance in yourself?
    No, since I didn't see myself as such until another person pointed out these tendencies to me.

    Do you ever feel disgusted with yourself for being cruel or for how angry you get?
    I can feel disgusted afterwards if I find myself over-reacting but then I tend to justify it with that they deserved it.

    Would you consider your vengeance more 'angry' or 'cold-hearted?'
    I think ultimately more cold-hearted.

    Does your idea of "evening the score" apply to yourself, too? In other words, if you fuck up, do you feel like it's fair for the other person to expect you to own up to what you did? Are you willing to apologize and earn back their respect in this instance?
    Totally. If I didn't I'd be a hypocrite and I highly respect people who dare to assert themselves against me.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    Let's talk about vengeance.


    If you know your tritype and variants, please list them. Also, I'd love to hear from other types besides 8s.
    I think my tritype is 461 or 468.

    How do you relate to the type 8 passion for vengeance?
    My core type is 4, so I may respond differently.

    Do you like to watch others suffer, or do you just feel like you're "evening the score?"
    Just "evening the score."

    Would anyone be willing to share concrete examples or stories of how this has played out in your life?
    Well, one time someone took some things of mine...some very important things. I went and got my stuff back and on my way out I overturned a stone that exposed something very ugly and that person lost a relationship over it.

    If you've seen vengeful patterns in yourself, have you done anything to try to fix this behavior, or do you see it as a good thing, a self-protective mechanism you would never want to change?
    I am not sure about wanting to change that behavior because I can't stand it when someone does something against me or my loved ones and gets away with it.

    Has this calmed or changed over the course of your life?
    No

    Do you see vengeance and sadism in your behaviors as a young child?
    Vengeance I have but not sadism.

    If you get revenge or "even the score," how do you feel afterwards?
    I feel like I got justice.

    Has this sort of behavior or thinking caused problems in your life or in your relationships?
    Yes...and that is all I want to say about that.

    Have you used your enneagram study to help you recognize and reconcile some of your vengeance patterns? Was it easy for you to see vengeance in yourself?
    I am still learning about the enneagram, and no it was not easy to see vengeance in myself.

    Do you ever feel disgusted with yourself for being cruel or for how angry you get?
    Only if I was in the wrong and my anger was not warranted.

    Would you consider your vengeance more 'angry' or 'cold-hearted?'
    Angry

    Does your idea of "evening the score" apply to yourself, too? In other words, if you fuck up, do you feel like it's fair for the other person to expect you to own up to what you did? Are you willing to apologize and earn back their respect in this instance?
    If I fuck up, then I will own up to it.

  9. #9
    Junior Member TheVenetian's Avatar
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    How do you relate to the type 8 passion for vengeance?
    Strongly. It's easy for me to find things to be angry about (as there are so many problems to choose from), and when these problems concern the real or perceived wronging of me, a strong desire for vengeance manifests within my mind.

    Do you like to watch others suffer, or do you just feel like you're "evening the score?"
    I find no joy in others' pain. However, upon seeing the crumbling, or wounding, or scared response of someone who has chosen to (seriously) cross me or my inner circle, a satisfaction comes that speaks to my sense of self-defined, pseudo-vigilante justice. It's often not enough to see people reprimanded by administration or society -- the satisfaction comes from my punishing of them for the injustice (real or exaggerated), more viscerally than a 3rd party.

    Would anyone be willing to share concrete examples or stories of how this has played out in your life?
    If anyone asks, then I will.

    If you've seen vengeful patterns in yourself, have you done anything to try to fix this behavior, or do you see it as a good thing, a self-protective mechanism you would never want to change?
    I used to find it a very reliable, strong defensive mechanism -- albeit one that could never truly be sated. Now, I've realized, and am slowly beginning to accept, that true displays of power come from the ability to be merciful upon those who deserve nothing. Interestingly, the want for vengeance comes as a result of retribution for others making me feel threatened. Of course, I am the only one who decides to be threatened. So I am in the process of stopping this cycle, and am making a conscious effort to elevate my capacity to be magnanimous in the distribution of power.

    Has this calmed or changed over the course of your life?
    I become distinctly calmer when I am able to spend more time alone, or at least with a chosen group of people. Being forced into a position where I am surrounded by those that I have little to nothing in common with (hence, a reduction in basic empathy) does not help to nullify my desire to exact revenge on any and all whom attract it. The environment of high school is not necessarily conducive to improving the mental state of someone who A) Sees incredible problems with the World and its inhabitants and B) Has an incredibly difficult time tolerating the inefficiencies of bureaucracy, as well as the disturbing level of apathy and unwillingness to improve oneself that is so unfortunately prevalent with teenagers.

    Do you see vengeance and sadism in your behaviors as a young child?
    No. I see near countless instances of myself feeling hurt (though never from parents) and ostracized. Eventually, I became mean too. At this point, it's my fault.

    If you get revenge or "even the score," how do you feel afterwards?
    As though I have completed some sort of karmic contract. Of course, I am in no way the one who should be doling out moral retribution; I'll leave that to the infinitely wise religious corporations that nearly run our world.

    Has this sort of behavior or thinking caused problems in your life or in your relationships?
    Very much so. Though, more than seeking vengeance, the extreme, survivalistic reactions to feeling even mildly threatened create problems with those that I would otherwise not seek conflict with.

    Have you used your enneagram study to help you recognize and reconcile some of your vengeance patterns? Was it easy for you to see vengeance in yourself?
    Yes and yes. I am trying, as mentioned above, to move towards a more compassionate mindset. Buddhist teachings help. Reading about others solutions on these forums helps. And the linguistic manifestations (in the form of enneagram descriptions) of these internal conflicts help tremendously, as far as just recognizing problems is concerned.

    Do you ever feel disgusted with yourself for being cruel or for how angry you get?
    Yes.

    Would you consider your vengeance more 'angry' or 'cold-hearted?'
    Angry. I can plan my way to paradise, but it doesn't fulfill the (to be redundant) more visceral need for "justice."

    Does your idea of "evening the score" apply to yourself, too? In other words, if you fuck up, do you feel like it's fair for the other person to expect you to own up to what you did? Are you willing to apologize and earn back their respect in this instance?
    Surely. I wish more people would confront me. I respect anyone who will, with legitimacy. If I really was out of control, or blatantly unjustified, I will go the extra mile to provide recompense.

  10. #10
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    I really hoped this thread was going to be about Vengeance and Evening Wear because of how the title cut off.

    I is disappoint. :<
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

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