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  1. #1
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Default Inferior Si or Se in Type 8s

    How does this manifest in you?

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    @Wind-Up Rex brought up this point in another thread:

    @Maybe, @kyuuei, @mmhmm and any other ENFP 8s out there:

    I've been exploring a pet theory that ENFP 8s are more balanced in the N/S dichotomy than their 4, 6 or 7 counterparts. Do you feel that to be true in your case? Or do you attribute your enneagram type to better developed Te? Or is it related to neither and more to do with something exogenous to type?
    I am wondering, do you feel more connected to your inferior Se or Si than your tertiary function?
    Art is the blood of the Exile
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    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    I think an example of my inferior Si occurred yesterday. I was on a skype call, and eating steak. I was eating it with my hands and licking my fingers and telling the person, "Mmm, I fucking love steak. So fucking good." I wasn't attempting to make a show, just, the steak was so good. He said to me, "You're like an animal.."

    I would think this is what inferior Si could look like in a type 8. Very carnal, vulnerable to the sensory experience, indulgent, intense, and not subtle about expressing it in the slightest.

    If Si is about a personal interpretation of sensory data, and 8 is the "most in touch with body" out of the body triad on the enneagram, I would think that these aspects of me in a combination would show why a lot of people tell me, all my life, that I'm "like an animal," and why my close friends and family call me "it." It's been a running joke in my family all my life - I will say to my mother, "It's hungry." I'll go into animal mode with an SO and climb on him like a cat. It feels as though I am so simple and carnally focused on my sensory vulnerabilities that I'm animalistic, I'll growl and crave what I want to no end.
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  3. #3
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    I think we in a way always feel more connected to our inferior simply becaues the connection is caused by our dominant function. It's thus less distant in such a sense. The connection is just of a strongly unconscious nature so we aren't aware of our inferior most of the time. I mean, I over-rely on mine in a way and it's an important aspect of my identity because without it I wouldn't feel logical and I see myself as a logical person.

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  4. #4
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Thank you for your responses in the Mistyped Members Thread, @Maybe, and opening this thread for wider discussion. You might find this thread on Forms of the Inferior in ENPs to be of interest as a lot of it maps really strongly to your own experience of Inferior Si.

    As I was discussing in the other thread, I feel like it's interesting the way that fundamentally 8ish concerns--like physical security--can play out through the prism of MBTI types not traditionally associated with them. As an ENTJ, it's easy for me to understand how Inferior Fi can play into the standard 8 narrative of the need to be strong to compensate for feelings of vulnerability, and how when I cope with my Inferior Fi issues it could produce an integrated persona closer to that of a healthy 2. Do you feel that the same is true in your case? To me, it would seem that an ENFP capable of relating to Si in a healthy way would be more like a more integrated member of any one of the head types.

    I think that the dynamic of an 8 fixation in an ENP is interesting because the control of the enviornment seems to hinge on directing the thoughts, ideas and perceptions of those around them. That would make me think that any ENP that was actually an 8 would be more likely to be an 8w7 than an 8w9, because they have the ESTPs melee quality but one that plays out on an intellectual level rather than a physical one.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
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  5. #5
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    As an ENTJ, it's easy for me to understand how Inferior Fi can play into the standard 8 narrative of the need to be strong to compensate for feelings of vulnerability, and how when I cope with my Inferior Fi issues it could produce an integrated persona closer to that of a healthy 2. Do you feel that the same is true in your case? To me, it would seem that an ENFP capable of relating to Si in a healthy way would be more like a more integrated member of any one of the head types.
    Interesting. I mistyped at 5 for a while before I typed at 8.

    My life's work is writing fiction and music, and putting multi-media projects together. I have always been more drawn to creative arts than physical sports as career pursuits. However, a major aspect of what I love about my work IS the physical. My work involves being on stage, which is physical, and shooting videos and photos which involves climbing through nature etc. Also, I have to work out a lot to look good on stage and in photos.

    Still, creative projects are what I love most in life and where I channel most of my energy, and a few of the artists who have inspired me most have been typed on forums as 5s. The 5-ish laser-like focus and competency need is definitely present. But the themes are easily more 2-ish and 8-ish. The sci-fi/fantasy book I'm writing now, complicated as it is, has a theme mostly focused on revenge ... but also a theme about overcoming the want for power and control, and giving in to vulnerability and love. There is even a love-related sacrifice at the end.

    Listening to songs that I've written throughout my life, I can find a lot of 8ish and 2ish themes, but not as many 5ish themes. There's a lot of focus on lust, triumph over adversity, power, vulnerability, revenge, anger, and giving that up for love; but there's only a vague flavor of existential type thinking. However, there is a 5ish objectivity or snark at times; and some songs about being inspired to look into myself and figure things out.

    I think that the dynamic of an 8 fixation in an ENP is interesting because the control of the enviornment seems to hinge on directing the thoughts, ideas and perceptions of those around them. That would make me think that any ENP that was actually an 8 would be more likely to be an 8w7 than an 8w9, because they have the ESTPs melee quality but one that plays out on an intellectual level rather than a physical one.
    Hmm.. good point. I suppose this is why people keep telling me I'm an 8w7 rather than 8w9. It may be true, and I'm still considering it. But what I'm wondering about is this: I relate more to the 8w9 descriptions of "drawing a line in the sand " than the 8w7 descriptions of people going around picking fights, constantly seeking conflict. Could I be an 8w7 who would rather avoid conflict than start a fight unnecessarily, but is not afraid of conflict, and draws a clear line in the sand?

    Aside from that aspect, what you describe here is true of me: my goal-focus tends to be on more intellectual pursuits.

    How would you say that the lines to 2 and 5 manifest in you? Also, are most of your pursuits physical?
    Art is the blood of the Exile
    4w3 6w7 8w9 ~ Sx/Sp ~ ISTP ~ LSI-Se

  6. #6
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    Could I be an 8w7 who would rather avoid conflict than start a fight unnecessarily, but is not afraid of conflict, and draws a clear line in the sand?
    Honestly, I was just discussing these things from a theoretical perspective. I haven't really observed you long enough to say anything conclusive, but your vibe does resonate as more 8w9 than 8w7.

    As for your question, I think that it's entirely possible that an 8w7 could become more strategic in his or her use of force and start looking more 8w9ish. It comes down to what constrains you. An 8w7 is probably more likely to avoid conflict because they've thought through the scenario, and have found a better point of leverage. 8w9s are a bit different. We are not as offensively oriented as 8w7, and will gravitate towards peace before the thrill of conflict. An 8w9 is likely to rely less on strategy per se, and more on using their ability to project strength as a means of deterence. Personally, for all that I'm NTJ, I've got a strong physical intuition. I can just sense when is the right minute to hold 'em or fold 'em without some long-drawn out mental calculus accompanying the decision. The drawback of that is when I'm pushed to the point where I opt to throwdown, it can be difficult to reason with me as that same sense can just overcome my capacity to think. Strategy for me revolves around making sure that I never get to that place to begin with.


    How would you say that the lines to 2 and 5 manifest in you? Also, are most of your pursuits physical?
    As it turns out, what you said to me about having a number of creative pursuits really resontated. At very points in my life I've been a dancer, writer, painter, and actress. Having that outlet is crucial to remaining balanced for me. I've dabbled in endurance sports like triathalon, but it's not really my passion.

    I think that my expression of 2 is very obvious. I feel a deep compulsion to serve others, and I constantly ask myself how I can be helpful to those around me. I also genuinely love people, and strive to be accepting of others. Being an Sx-dom ties in with that as I feel the need to bond very deeply with my SOs, and those that I care about. 2 for me is what I've always thought of the person that I really am. To love and be loved in return being the greatest thing and all.

    The connection to 5 is kind of a mixed bag. I've always had what I like to call my intellectual pet projects since I was a kid. I like to feel a certain mastery over the things that interest me. I tend to withdraw when left to my own devices, and am frequently taken for an introvert when around people I'm comfortable with, or in a situation I don't find to be too engaging. The less positive side of 5 for me is that when I'm in a bad space I can get into this sorta bunker mentality and begin to burn a lot of bridges. I lose that physical awareness and lash out without really being able to sense the impact that I'm having. I dunno. It's complicated. 5 is as much a kind of "recharge" zone (security point) for me as it is something of a swamp (disintegration point). A lot of the insecurities that I have revolve around my intellectual abilities, which is another thing that I attribute to the connection to 5.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  7. #7
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    Hmm.. good point. I suppose this is why people keep telling me I'm an 8w7 rather than 8w9. It may be true, and I'm still considering it. But what I'm wondering about is this: I relate more to the 8w9 descriptions of "drawing a line in the sand " than the 8w7 descriptions of people going around picking fights, constantly seeking conflict. Could I be an 8w7 who would rather avoid conflict than start a fight unnecessarily, but is not afraid of conflict, and draws a clear line in the sand?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    As for your question, I think that it's entirely possible that an 8w7 could become more strategic in his or her use of force and start looking more 8w9ish. It comes down to what constrains you. An 8w7 is probably more likely to avoid conflict because they've thought through the scenario, and have found a better point of leverage.
    as a note on these points here (not really Se or Si inferior as far as I know, though I do fall most primarily into two type descriptions, one of which is an N and the other an S )

    I would think that there shouldn't be a necessity for an 8w7 to go around acting like some sort of hooligan... everyone grows up at some point and calms down, 8w7s included When I was younger I was a bit of a holy terror to just about anyone who crossed my path or came within my line of vision. I also had much more 7-ish interests then in a stereotypical manner as in being queen of the party girls- I never missed a chance at fun or fight.

    I've calmed down A LOT as I've aged and sobered up though... I never go looking for a fight (though I will step into a situation if I see one in order to end it), my quest for new experiences has fallen into a much more introverted pattern and I've taken on more of a defender as opposed to attacker role in situations. I've gotten very good at reading my opponent (working sales for most of one's working life hones that skill!) and peacefully stepping on their jugular until they relent by now, which tends to stop fights pretty quickly.

    In a way I kind of feel like a rottweiler anymore... lurking and waiting for a moment when action is required, and prepared to attack when needed

    don't know if that's of any help, but that's my two cents I guess!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #8
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I would think that there shouldn't be a necessity for an 8w7 to go around acting like some sort of hooligan... everyone grows up at some point and calms down, 8w7s included
    Woman, you are like pure feist. I'm not even sure Im prepared to contemplate a more intense version.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  9. #9
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Woman, you are like pure feist. I'm not even sure Im prepared to contemplate a more intense version.
    I haven't thrown a punch in YEARS now!

    but then again, as the ladies of the board (you included! ) demonstrate, feist is an attitude as opposed to an action
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #10
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    As an 8w9 I've had to make a more conscious effort to go on the offensive at selective times or in certain communities filled with testy people. Even as a gymnastics instructor to small children. The girl who works at admin told me "It was impossible to get a read on you at first, but after a few days we realized you were just, chill as hell."

    I wonder if balance between both wings is a simple way to strive for personal growth. Not too much force, and not too little.

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