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  1. #31
    Member Vergil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    ^ Do you think that can have to do with being 5 fixed, not to mention 4, too? Both are withdrawn types.
    Could be.. I still do test as a 5...So i definitely see a possibility
    Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive.

    ~George Bernard Shaw~


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  2. #32
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Actually I bet the 9 wing has a lot to do with the "assault from the outside." The way I describe 9's is that they are an objecting passing through space being absorbed into other peoples' agendas, often forgetting their own agendas. For this reason 9's often lose sight of what they need. The 1w9 would probably mean he is unaware of himself that he has to figure it out before others do, because when he doesn't have himself figured out, the boundaries are almost completely open to anyone with input whether he knows it or not.

    as an 8w9, The only time my boundaries are completely up 100% is when all of my needs are met. However I'm often oblivious to what those needs are, so my mind is usually open to others telling me what I need. At this point I absorb the information, try to metabolize it, and if it pisses me off I spit it out and get hurt. This actually feels very much like a form of assault from the outside that I'm constantly defending myself against. My identity often disappears when I stop moving or making decisive action.
    Very interesting. Sounds like that's probably a big part of it, then.

    What would be an example of a situation like in your 2nd paragraph?
    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    Hmm, any theories for why ENTP 1 would be so uncommon?
    From this chart, it looks like most 1s are SJ (though INxJ are often 1s, also). It makes intuitive sense for most 1s to be SJ because of the focus on rules, rightness/wrongness, etc. And it makes intuitive sense for Perceivers to not often be 1s, because 1s tend to be a bit rigid and set in their ways, which Perceivers generally aren't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    Also sorry - I missed your sig
    No problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    Ah, makes sense.

    It's interesting though - you type at SO instinct and yet don't need social approval, don't feel averse to criticism? How does the SO manifest with your inner critic?
    On the contrary, I feel incredibly averse to criticism, and I definitely need social approval. (Check out what I bolded in fidelia's earlier quote; she and I are both 1w2 so/sx, which is why I related to so much of it, and why she and I tend to "vibe" similarly (or so I've been told).) It's just that I don't see the outside world as a threatening place.

    And, on reflection, I have been known to use self-deprecation as a protective shield, in some (rare) situations. But the mindset is different.

    Vergil's mindset (to contrast):
    Quote Originally Posted by Vergil View Post
    "I have already criticized myself, so I know what kind of feelings are likely to be evoked within me. I am therefore better prepared to handle those feelings when people start their onslaught."
    My mindset:
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    "I have already criticized myself, so if you criticized me, you'd be redundant. You can't get any satisfaction from insulting me when I already knew that your insults were correct. Old news. Not a shock to me."
    So, it's not about preparing myself for feeling those feelings later. It's about deadening the feelings so I don't have to feel them at all, later.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  3. #33
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think that I definitely need social approval and don't like criticism. Probably one of the ways I tend to deal with it is (in certain circumstances) point out all the things that I've already thought of that are a problem to the other person (whether in my work, or personally), so that they understand that I have put thought into it and that I am not blind to what is there.

    I'm even pretty open to considering criticism, once I have a chance to think it over, even if it isn't from someone I like. I've learned over time to evaluate the source and let unqualified or self-interested criticism affect me less. I used to take any negative comment regarding me as a valid evaluation of my worth to others. I realize now that sometimes that sort of thing isn't even about me, but about where the other person is at.

    What stings is when I realize that the other person's criticism is absolutely true AND I didn't see it before. Then it is not resentment towards them that I feel, but just deep and extreme embarrassment. I will resent and even publicly resist (thought privately feel the sting of) criticism that seems unfair, mocking, or unthinkingly public and will deeply distrust the person for a long time afterwards, even if I have forgiven them.

    I would say that my mum is a enneagram 1 ENFJ. She definitely experiences things differently than I do - feels deeply guilty about things that most people wouldn't think twice about, while also being much more outspoken than I would be in the moment and then regretting doing so later on. She feels right a lot of the time and wouldn't be as likely to say she was wrong though. She'd be more likely to regret the way she expressed something rather than that she felt that way.

    I often have difficulty finding a balance between expressing my opinions and judgements openly and at the right time, and wanting to find common ground with the other person. It often results in me reserving judgement at the time, but then feeling resentment later on that then can't be expressed because it seems like the issue is too petty or that it is too late to do so. However, as patterns emerge of certain behaviours, sometimes one incident can be the straw that breaks the camel's back and then the other person hears everything all at once, which isn't really fair and it appears that I am storing up problems to bear grudges about, when it is really that I am trying so hard to seem fair and reasonable, that sometimes I underestimate how strongly I actually feel until it just comes rushing out unexpectedly. (And I feel horribly embarrassed at having said more than I meant to or that I became emotional in front of the person).

    Usually I take a long time weighing whether the potential negativity of criticism has benefits that outweigh the fallout. I think I am reluctant to criticize to a fault, as I keep myself in other people's shoes and probably I'm more sensitive that many of them are. It still doesn't change what I think though, and that too has caused problems sometimes. At times I don't see the point of bringing something up, but it can come off to others as silently judging them. I'd be open to expressing my views if they solicited my opinion, or if I was very close to them, but not otherwise.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Very interesting. Sounds like that's probably a big part of it, then.

    What would be an example of a situation like in your 2nd paragraph?

    From this chart, it looks like most 1s are SJ (though INxJ are often 1s, also). It makes intuitive sense for most 1s to be SJ because of the focus on rules, rightness/wrongness, etc. And it makes intuitive sense for Perceivers to not often be 1s, because 1s tend to be a bit rigid and set in their ways, which Perceivers generally aren't.

    No problem.

    On the contrary, I feel incredibly averse to criticism, and I definitely need social approval. (Check out what I bolded in fidelia's earlier quote; she and I are both 1w2 so/sx, which is why I related to so much of it, and why she and I tend to "vibe" similarly (or so I've been told).) It's just that I don't see the outside world as a threatening place.

    And, on reflection, I have been known to use self-deprecation as a protective shield, in some (rare) situations. But the mindset is different.

    Vergil's mindset (to contrast):

    My mindset:

    So, it's not about preparing myself for feeling those feelings later. It's about deadening the feelings so I don't have to feel them at all, later.
    An example of my second paragraph would be like when in the military, someone walks up to me and says:

    "Here's what's wrong with you and you need to fix it!"

    I immediately think, "hmm, honest feedback? Lets hear it, I'm all for feedback and bettering myself."

    He says, "You need to stop being arrogant. you're overconfident in your abilities. You have a sense of entitlement and ..."

    I sit there and think, "hmm, I do?" I end up nodding in agreement saying, "Hmm, I'll work on these things."

    I go back to my room and think it over. Then I'll realize, "no... wait a minute, I don't have a sense of entitlement at all. Where the hell is that coming from? Arrogant? I don't even know what it means to be arrogant. I'm the humblest person ever. Overconfident? I know exactly what I can and cannot do, how is that overconfident? I've not once in my life said I can do something that I can't do."

    Then I stop and think, "well, I suspect they're wrong. I don't agree with this feedback at all."

    Later down the road they realize I didn't take their feedback seriously.

    40 people tell me I"m arrogant, overconfident, sense of entitlement, and that I need to be "more humble" and take their advice.

    I sit there and I say, "what? I'm very humble, I do take your advice, but you don't understand."

    But over time when you have every person who sees you telling you the same shit over and over you start to believe it yourself, no matter how strong minded you are.

    Somewhere along the line, people will often tell me how I feel. I don't know why, but that frustrates the HELL out of me. If I am aware of how I feel before someone tells me, their words won't make much of a difference. But when I have no idea how I feel and someone tells me, "You're feeling X Y Z" it just sinks in almost immediately like they're programming me how to feel, and I get angry and have to force it out of my head. Its really wierd how it works. But if I'm in love, or I'm really angry, often times people don't mess with me because I usually know exactly how I feel.

  5. #35
    Member Vergil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    An example of my second paragraph would be like when in the military, someone walks up to me and says:

    "Here's what's wrong with you and you need to fix it!"

    I immediately think, "hmm, honest feedback? Lets hear it, I'm all for feedback and bettering myself."

    He says, "You need to stop being arrogant. you're overconfident in your abilities. You have a sense of entitlement and ..."

    I sit there and think, "hmm, I do?" I end up nodding in agreement saying, "Hmm, I'll work on these things."

    I go back to my room and think it over. Then I'll realize, "no... wait a minute, I don't have a sense of entitlement at all. Where the hell is that coming from? Arrogant? I don't even know what it means to be arrogant. I'm the humblest person ever. Overconfident? I know exactly what I can and cannot do, how is that overconfident? I've not once in my life said I can do something that I can't do."

    Then I stop and think, "well, I suspect they're wrong. I don't agree with this feedback at all."

    Later down the road they realize I didn't take their feedback seriously.

    40 people tell me I"m arrogant, overconfident, sense of entitlement, and that I need to be "more humble" and take their advice.

    I sit there and I say, "what? I'm very humble, I do take your advice, but you don't understand."

    But over time when you have every person who sees you telling you the same shit over and over you start to believe it yourself, no matter how strong minded you are.

    Somewhere along the line, people will often tell me how I feel. I don't know why, but that frustrates the HELL out of me. If I am aware of how I feel before someone tells me, their words won't make much of a difference. But when I have no idea how I feel and someone tells me, "You're feeling X Y Z" it just sinks in almost immediately like they're programming me how to feel, and I get angry and have to force it out of my head. Its really wierd how it works. But if I'm in love, or I'm really angry, often times people don't mess with me because I usually know exactly how I feel.
    Bold parts are VERY true for me as well. xD
    Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive.

    ~George Bernard Shaw~


    *1w9-5w6-4w3 sx/sp* *ENTP* *ILE - selector*

  6. #36
    Member Vergil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    So, it's not about preparing myself for feeling those feelings later. It's about deadening the feelings so I don't have to feel them at all, later.
    What you have chosen to make clear with the word "deaden", I chose to be a little more ambiguous about by using the words "preparing myself".

    I think I've faced much difficulty with repression and I don't want to go back there. "Deaden" reminds me of that and I would rather not see myself resorting to such tactics in near future. Hence the difference in wording.

    also, this
    It's just that I don't see the outside world as a threatening place.
    The outside is not exactly threatening, but it's not home. It's not a very comfortable place.
    Too many eyes. xD
    Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive.

    ~George Bernard Shaw~


    *1w9-5w6-4w3 sx/sp* *ENTP* *ILE - selector*

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