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  1. #11
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I think so. I'm pretty sure that unhealthy 1s tend to suppress their own self-doubt to the point that it only arises under stress. See: Frollo, from The Hunchback of Notre Dame, aka the archetypal unhealthy 1w2.
    Lmao. I remember seeing that movie as a child and I hated him with my gut. I think the unhealthy types that really get to me the most are unhealthy 1s and CP6s for some reason. Maybe because as DJArendee noted, their nitpicking on their environment triggers my own insecurities. I don't know.

    Oh yeah. I actually mistyped as a 6 for a while.

    I can't answer this for sp 1s, but my anxiety is generally a fear of getting things wrong. Even when I'm afraid of the unknown, it's because I'm afraid that I won't succeed at dealing with the unknown, because I won't be prepared -- and not succeeding will mean Doing It Wrong and embarrassing myself. As I understand it, 6/5 anxiety is more of a general "survival" thing -- something that I don't relate to at all.
    Thanks. Very interesting with the whole "doing it wrong" and thus feeling shame and guilt as a result (two feelings I associate with superego). 5 anxiety can appear similar to 6 anxiety since both of us are head types and beside each other and we both search for truth and answers. I can't speak for 6s since I'm not one and as a whole while I can see some 6 behavior/think/motivations due to weak wing influence I have a hard time relating to and understanding how 6 operates besides the superficial things I can logicalize. Anyway, to me, anxiety is just a feeling that occurs whenever I'm in a situation where I feel incapable and overall incompetent because I have no knowledge and understanding of how to deal with it. It can be triggered by many small things like just seeing things out of the ordinary. I think claiming that 5s are actually scared of the unknown isn't too far off to explain 5 anxiety since the basis of the 5 neurosis stems from feeling disconnected from holy omniscience. This means that being disconnected from all knowledge results in a feeling of not knowing and understanding anything. I'm a stranger in a strange land.

    As a result, the 5 must rebuild this knowledge base they were disconnected from in order to reconnect to omniscience, so naturally, all things unknown and unexperienced trigger anxiety and needs to be researched. So yes, survival-based in such a sense I guess. I need to know in order to survive. When I think about it this way, I realize how godamn irrational this actually is despite thinking of myself as a very rational person overall but meh, enneagram motivations aren't rational... Regardless of how difficult that is for me to admit. I always seek a rational explanation even if this explanation/understanding occurs intuitively and is not something I can clearly verbalize to other people. As long as I personally know/understand, it's sufficient.

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Was my post not helpful? :/
    oh no it was!

    I was just being dramatic in relation to the guy who was just criticizing his behavior on the phone. Its hard to know if that was a 1 or not that was accusing him.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    oh no it was!

    I was just being dramatic in relation to the guy who was just criticizing his behavior on the phone. Its hard to know if that was a 1 or not that was accusing him.
    True that it's hard to say what motivated the behavior.

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  4. #14
    Member Vergil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    lol

    I almost started to understand you then I lost it.

    So the 1's self criticize because they're trying to absolve themselves of flaws and corruption. By criticizing themselves they better themselves and become perfectionistic in everything they do?

    So the fear of corruption also creates an anticipatory response to criticism? So they may verbally attack others for being wrong before the person can even think about it and criticize the 1? In essense, the 1 strives to be the first person to be right in a situation?
    1) The essence of my argument was simple: the 1s have a rule - "criticism should lead to improvement". If the expected improvement at the end of certain amount of criticism is not achieved, the inner critic provides more criticism so as to attain the desired effect. However, the undesirable consequences - the side effects - are compulsive actions which might seem inseparable from the desired improvement, prima facie.

    The fear of corruption is therefore, a fear of criticism because criticism makes 1s feel bad - as it does to most other types - because we are all human in the end. Do you see what I'm saying?

    2) Well, this is supposedly more 6-like than 1-like. Although it might just be that descriptions have filled my head with crap.

    Anyway, I said that it would be more 6 like because projection is more of 6-tendency than a 1-tendency. A 1 is more like to criticize the self before others can. Meaning, if a 1 finds flaws within the self, the 1 will censure the self badly enough so that others' words have little to no effect. So, we get back to the basic of being 1 - having the inner critic.

    The voice of the inner critic can be anything from mild to vitriolic, depending upon the health of the E1.

    Does this help??
    Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive.

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  5. #15
    Member Vergil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    When I was at work yesterday I spoke to this very unpleasant man. I work by interviewing people over the telephone and while he agreed to perform and finish the interview, he was constantly rude towards me and I was thinking about this and how it related to the enneagram. For example, one of the first things he tells me is that the headset sound is bad and I'm like all right, I try to adjust the sound volume by putting the microphone closer to my mouth. Then he said that I should spit out the bubblegum I got in my mouth (I got none!) because it sounds like I'm chewing on something (to him). I think the simpler explanation is that I am having a mild cold and I had difficulty breathing through my nose yesterday with a somewhat sore throat to go with it.

    Then he keeps complaining about how I am simply performing my job poorly like I am annoying to listen to, I should stop reading, I should stop follow my work policy and protocol because it annoys him and so on. As a competency type myself all this needless criticism seemed very unproductive especially as I found most of it being unfounded and it was like he was bitching for the sake of bitching. I could however see how both a CP6 or a 1 could behave in the manner he did. Would you say this is an example of unhealthy 1 or 6 behavior? It was most definitely superego driven.

    Similarly, I was playing League of Legends the other day and I was playing with another person who kept nagging at me and others for not being good enough for them. Our reaction times were too slow, he was so good and no one could live up to his standards etc. He for example said that I should thank him for him saving me from almost dying even though it was him who got me into the situation where I almost died to begin with! Just needless constant nitpicking. Or how he complained that the rest of us were too slow for saving his sorry ass when he suicides at the enemy base. There's no way in hell we could have reacted fast enough to save him unless him warning us beforehand that he is going to perform that action which he did.

    So it was always someone else's fault when he made a mistake. Is this also a case of unhealthy 1 behavior?

    Also, how does sp 1 anxiety differ to CP 6/5 anxiety? I assume here that they can appear rather similar?
    I mostly just skimmed through the story, but I ENTP-skimmed... :P

    What I gather is that the way that guy behaved with you was an emotional reaction, which was also displayed out of context. Meaning, the guy basically was erupting on you because he was upset with something else. The simplest (perhaps too simple) explanation is projection. I can totally see that as being a CP 6-ish reaction from a phobic 6. I have yet to meet an E1 who is so quick to be openly critical and that too towards a stranger (It might just be that I don't know too many E1s IRL, but I cannot be certain). I have seen such a thing happen before and it is uncannily similar to my experience. However, I will agree with you in that my statement is merely speculation.

    Sp E1 anxiety... well, I am still not entirely sure of my variant stacking, but I am certainly not sp last. I can relate to the anxiety bit, but my anxiety is all about being deprived while still being competent. I worry about losing my independence and that worry manifests as a fear of not being able to get a job, or a job that pays enough money, or losing my money if I invest in the stock market too much xD. I also fret over how well I have done my job. I can always improve it. Always.

    My $0.02
    Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive.

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  6. #16
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vergil View Post
    I mostly just skimmed through the story, but I ENTP-skimmed... :P

    What I gather is that the way that guy behaved with you was an emotional reaction, which was also displayed out of context. Meaning, the guy basically was erupting on you because he was upset with something else. The simplest (perhaps too simple) explanation is projection. I can totally see that as being a CP 6-ish reaction from a phobic 6. I have yet to meet an E1 who is so quick to be openly critical and that too towards a stranger (It might just be that I don't know too many E1s IRL, but I cannot be certain). I have seen such a thing happen before and it is uncannily similar to my experience. However, I will agree with you in that my statement is merely speculation.
    Makes sense.

    Sp E1 anxiety... well, I am still not entirely sure of my variant stacking, but I am certainly not sp last. I can relate to the anxiety bit, but my anxiety is all about being deprived while still being competent. I worry about losing my independence and that worry manifests as a fear of not being able to get a job, or a job that pays enough money, or losing my money if I invest in the stock market too much xD. I also fret over how well I have done my job. I can always improve it. Always.

    My $0.02
    Hm, so one could say more like just general sp anxiety?

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  7. #17
    Member Vergil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Makes sense.

    Hm, so one could say more like just general sp anxiety?
    I guess so, yeah. But, I don't understand the "obsession with health and fitness" part. It just seems like an exaggeration, or...something. But otherwise, it fits fine with the "concern for ones own well-being."
    Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive.

    ~George Bernard Shaw~


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  8. #18
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't really relate to a fear of corruption either. If anything, I think my friend/acquaintance groups have included a wide variety of people, many of which were polar opposite from me. We intersected in the areas where we had commonality but branched off in areas where my philosophy/faith/values took me in a different direction and it seemed to work.

    Re criticism
    I think that I find criticism difficult for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I'm already very hard on myself, so it is dreadful to realize how obvious and offensive those same flaws are to other people. I remember as a kid not wanting to show anyone my work until I had improved it as well as I could first. Even as I worked on it myself, it was like I was split off from myself watching myself and criticizing. When something was pointed out (particularly if it was something where I had to put myself out there like music theatre or speech arts), I just felt really embarrassed that I hadn't thought of it first and embarrassed at the thought of it having looked stupid.

    As a kid, and even sometimes now I am easily embarrassed socially. If someone points out a gaffe I made in a way that is public or doesn't seem to be sympathetic, I just writhe inside, playing and replaying it. I think I can better sort out the other person's motivations now than I used to and also can take away something useful out of the experience more easily than I once did.

    I also have always been extremely sensitive to blame. It's strange, because I had a very warm, supportive family and blame was never a big deal, but I would go to great lengths to avoid even disapproval. I honestly can't say why that is, but as an adult have had to face the fact that it can even cause me to violate my own moral code by not always giving all the information or by not being totally honest. It's not a matter either of not being willing to face that I messed up. It's more the matter of disappointing others, or feeling the emotional weight of their unhappiness with me, rather than dealing with the problem itself. I can change my behaviour, but I can't change other people's feelings.

    I think my criticism is generally directed inwards much more than outwards. On the occasions where it is directed outwards, it is usually as a last resort to change circumstances that I think are going to cause real and lasting harm.

  9. #19
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    if a 1 finds flaws within the self, the 1 will censure the self badly enough so that others' words have little to no effect. So, we get back to the basic of being 1 - having the inner critic.

    The voice of the inner critic can be anything from mild to vitriolic, depending upon the health of the E1.

    Does this help??
    Hmm.. would you say that criticizing yourself before others can would help you avoid feeling bad about criticism, so actually while you convince yourself it's for the sake of being right, it's also self-protection? Armor of sorts?
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  10. #20
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't really relate to a fear of corruption either. If anything, I think my friend/acquaintance groups have included a wide variety of people, many of which were polar opposite from me. We intersected in the areas where we had commonality but branched off in areas where my philosophy/faith/values took me in a different direction and it seemed to work.

    Re criticism
    I think that I find criticism difficult for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I'm already very hard on myself, so it is dreadful to realize how obvious and offensive those same flaws are to other people. I remember as a kid not wanting to show anyone my work until I had improved it as well as I could first. Even as I worked on it myself, it was like I was split off from myself watching myself and criticizing. When something was pointed out (particularly if it was something where I had to put myself out there like music theatre or speech arts), I just felt really embarrassed that I hadn't thought of it first and embarrassed at the thought of it having looked stupid.

    As a kid, and even sometimes now I am easily embarrassed socially. If someone points out a gaffe I made in a way that is public or doesn't seem to be sympathetic, I just writhe inside, playing and replaying it.
    I think I can better sort out the other person's motivations now than I used to and also can take away something useful out of the experience more easily than I once did.

    I also have always been extremely sensitive to blame. It's strange, because I had a very warm, supportive family and blame was never a big deal, but I would go to great lengths to avoid even disapproval. I honestly can't say why that is, but as an adult have had to face the fact that it can even cause me to violate my own moral code by not always giving all the information or by not being totally honest. It's not a matter either of not being willing to face that I messed up. It's more the matter of disappointing others, or feeling the emotional weight of their unhappiness with me, rather than dealing with the problem itself. I can change my behaviour, but I can't change other people's feelings.

    I think my criticism is generally directed inwards much more than outwards. On the occasions where it is directed outwards, it is usually as a last resort to change circumstances that I think are going to cause real and lasting harm.
    Yes Yes Yes a thousand times to the bolded.

    Re: "the emotional weight of their unhappiness with (you)"... ugh. I may not be conflict-avoidant, but I hate it when people are justifiably mad at me, and this is why. It does feel like a weight. Plus, there's the guilt, and that sucks too.

    Re: "violat(ing your) own moral code by not always giving all the information"... That's been a HUGE problem for me recently. Hiding my mistakes so people won't think less of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    Hmm.. would you say that criticizing yourself before others can would help you avoid feeling bad about criticism, so actually while you convince yourself it's for the sake of being right, it's also self-protection? Armor of sorts?
    That would imply that the primary motivation is avoiding criticism from others, when the primary motivation is to always be in the right, thereby avoiding criticism both from yourself and from others. Severe self-criticism can't serve a positive purpose for a 1, as far as I can tell -- though unhealthy 1s or 1s in a bad place might try to use that self-criticism as punishment, in the hopes that it will be an effective form of self-discipline, though that ends up doing the opposite of what they want it to do.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


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