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  1. #11
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Porsche View Post
    OMG! This reminds me of an 8 I'm talking about. When he was very young he courted a girl then built "fence around her". No guy could ever court her without him attacking them. Those guys who attempted to court the girl were rolling on the floor with dirt because of the type 8, and since then the girl's first and last boyfriend is that type 8.

    Nice game you play
    .. While I cannot say I am a jealous type, I do build these huge protective measures around my dates that leave me pretty open to avoiding jealousy entirely.
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  2. #12
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    I empower the woman to keep men away from us on her own if that makes any sense. If that doesn't work I give up.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Actually I think I figured it out. an 8's self esteem is based on their individuality while a 9's self esteem is based upon their feelings for others? Agree/disagree?
    After what I read "Naranjo's 'Character & Neurosis': Ennea-Type IX" I suddenly remember my post about you about my reply to that quote above, and I think I have to reassess my answer. ]This is partly what I read about Naranjo's Type 9 which is relevant to your post:

    Though individuals with this character seem to have given up the wish
    for recognition, there is a deep and unconscious love thirst in their abnegated resignation and
    an implicit wish for love retribution. The sense of worth as well as the sense of existence of
    type IX is satisfied, not through applause, but rather, through vicarious participation, a living
    through others
    : lost identity becomes an identity by symbiosis with family, nation, party, club,
    team, and so on. We might speak of interiority through participation, either at the sentimental,
    the familial, or the larger group level.
    It really gave me goosebumps upon reading that, about how it is scarily accurate. That article/book has an in-depth analysis of the very core of Type 9. I also interpret what you mean by self-esteem as self-worth, identification, if I'm not mistaken after reading Naranjo's. I may still answer my previous answer to your quote that I disagree, I answered and probably will still answer the same because I'm in a conscious evel. I thought of self-esteem about what's my inner strength, how I value and take pride in myself. I really do value myself and proud of who I am as a person and the opinions of others I really don't care. The merging, the identification of myself through others, the self-forgetting, self-abandonment, vicarious living through others are something that exists through me in an unconscious level. I'm not even aware that I do those things, like a type 8 that is not consciously aware that he is domineering and how he impacts other people. We just do those things in our very essence, our natural way, most of them through unconscious. The conscious self might say otherwise.

    When I read Naranjo's, I suddenly recall my conversation with my partner. Btw, he was just joking, or being annoyingly sarcastic, or being narcissistic or all of the above. He's a Type 3 ESTJ so you would expect that behavior from that personality type. Here's how it goes:

    Him: Even if you try have a competent high-salary job, you cannot outdo me. You would start with that level and I continue to rise high above the corporate ladder, I will still be higher than you.
    Me: Who knows? Maybe I one day I'd be your boss (I said in delusional kidding)


    A few seconds later...

    Me: Okay then. Just go on continue to rise high above and I will be just here. I really like your spirit. While you work, don't forget to always bring me comforts (food, internet, movies, good life). Keep on going!
    Him: LOL


    [In my mind I was really really proud of him, how he started as a nobody and now everybody is looking up to him. I reinforce that kind of behavior of him, like I support everything he does. I even support his boastful bragging attitude, lol, because it indicates confidence and competence. With what he said, it should have crushed my spirit somehow, because my worth, my being is seen as less than him, that he is the important one, and I'm the nobody. Say things like that to a core Type 3 and my partner would be beaten down to death, because a Type 3's spirit and worth is questioned and smashed. But no, it didn't affect me at all by what he said. It didn't put me down. What I feel was pride and I feel secured with him. I'm proud of him. If he's proud of himself, I'm as proud or even more so than him.]

    About the enclosed paragraph, maybe this is what they call the Type 9's merging. Of being one with the other, of being in unity with the other. Other 9s perhaps might do the same by identifying themselves with a nation, group affiliations of family members. In my case, my partner. I'm not even aware I've already done that. While my mind would still continue to say my worth doesn't depend on others, my unconscious self would still be doing otherwise that I'm not totally aware. I feel vicarious pride and sense of worth about my partner as who he is and what he can do as a whole. I do vicarious participation in life as a whole because I think or maybe I am, spiritually psychologically sleeping in life. As long as he is there continuing to retain his status and giving me comforts that I so love, I'm okay. Picking on my abilities and him boasting about how awesome he is useless. I am HIM.
    Last edited by Porsche; 03-06-2013 at 10:20 PM. Reason: formatting

  4. #14
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    IME 9w8s don't seem very 8-like at all - at least on the surface. They're very mellow, go-with-the-flow people with a no-BS interior. A good description I read said that 9w8s, "display calmness from a position of strength".

    I think 8w9s are going to be a lot more domineering and unperturbed by conflict. I read somewhere that 8w7s believe offence is the best defence, but 8w9s are all about setting up a good defensive system and waiting for others to make their move. So I suppose you could say 8w9s show "strength from a position of calmness".
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #15
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    8w9 types tend to just have this bad ass, "Don't fuck with me" vibe to them. They generally aren't that openly aggressive, but you know that it would be a bad idea to start a fight with them. 8w9's also welcome conflict a lot more than 9w8's. When an 8 enters a room, they sort of say to themselves, "Ok the boss is here now. I'm in charge". On the contrary nines generally don't like conflict. In addition, when they walk in the room, they almost feel "invisible" and don't really like to be noticed that much.

  6. #16
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    With 8w9s (8s) one constantly expects to be shelled but with 9s one does not.

    But once in a blue moon though or maybe a fortnight or maybe even on every alternate day 9w8s explode and that's something people never expect.

    Since the latter is erratic I'm inclined to conclude that they are more terrifying uncomfortable to be around.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    8w9 types tend to just have this bad ass, "Don't fuck with me" vibe to them. They generally aren't that openly aggressive, but you know that it would be a bad idea to start a fight with them. 8w9's also welcome conflict a lot more than 9w8's. When an 8 enters a room, they sort of say to themselves, "Ok the boss is here now. I'm in charge". On the contrary nines generally don't like conflict. In addition, when they walk in the room, they almost feel "invisible" and don't really like to be noticed that much.
    I'll agree with 9's feeling invisible. I mean, I'm not a 9 but I can see how that could be true.

    I disagree that 8's walk in feeling like "ok there's a new sheriff in town." At least, if I do, its unconscious. I've been called out on that behavior though. Its not something I consciously say to myself, "ok dj, its time to puff out your chest and make yourself look big. 1 2 3 *inhale* FFF!" However I find I'm different from a lot of 8's I've spoken to because a lot of people tend to do things knowingly in their head while I just do them because they feel like a good idea. So its hard to say who is right and wrong.

  8. #18
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I'll agree with 9's feeling invisible. I mean, I'm not a 9 but I can see how that could be true.

    I disagree that 8's walk in feeling like "ok there's a new sheriff in town." At least, if I do, its unconscious. I've been called out on that behavior though. Its not something I consciously say to myself, "ok dj, its time to puff out your chest and make yourself look big. 1 2 3 *inhale* FFF!" However I find I'm different from a lot of 8's I've spoken to because a lot of people tend to do things knowingly in their head while I just do them because they feel like a good idea. So its hard to say who is right and wrong.
    Well, it sounds like you just proved my point in your post, whether it may be a self-conscious process or not.

  9. #19
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    8w9 - stoic, self-sufficient, impresses on the world, comfortable being the rock jutting up from the middle of a flowing river. More likely Sp or Sx, emphasizes or values Te/Se/Fi.

    9w8 - codependent, impressionable, prefers to float on like a log. More likely Sx or So, emphasizes or values Ti/Ni/Fe.


    I write these relative to each other, not from a universal position.

  10. #20
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    I think there's a misconception that 8w9's are always this "rock" and very stolid in appearance.

    Me personally, I only look "mature" or "dignified" when I'm teaching people, couselling, or helping others out. Past that I'm kind of wirey and ridiculous near my friends, or just really quiet and don't bother making eye contact with strangers, and I'm constantly having to fend off bullies who mistakenly think I'm easy prey.

    There was a girl who was flipping a shit over some drama with her ex. She was surrounded by feelers who seemed to only be making her more hysterical and upset. I walked up, told them all to "hold up a sec" with my hands up. They all quiet down, then I asked the girl what she was scared of in a very calm voice. She started thinking, and calmed the fuck down. I had several comments from people who knew me for the last few months, "I underestimated you" etc.

    So often times there isn't a situation where I can actually display my strengths when I'm with my peers. I'm just a kid with a lot of jokes looking for a laugh until shit gets real. Then when these rare crises occur I'm almost always the one people gravitate toward. And in the 3 times in my life where I've legitimately raged at someone I put them into tears or made them tremble afterward and just do everything I say.

    The 8w9's I've met in my life have almost always been the ones where most people mistake kindness for weakness. A kid I knew who was often bullied would often say, "I'm refuse to fight back" and would just take the harassment. I knew where he was coming from but he was a little bit of a late bloomer in my opinion. I used to be the same way until I reached a point in my life where I decided most humans don't deserve fair treatment or decency, they must earn it from me. I'm fairly certain these were also STP's (Fe has an outward focussed tactfulness that Te does not, and Fe doms are often unaware of their internal states until its too late, which I associate with traits of E9), I'm not so sure I've met an ENTJ 8w9. ENTJ's seem to know exactly why they do what they do on a conscious level and what they're feeling, which goes against the 9ishness.

    I'm going to make a thread about this.

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