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  1. #11
    subterfugee Xann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    This response has made me wonder whether this topic has stirred a raw nerve within you but I will come on to that later. To express a few points:

    1) I said "allowing the accuracy of their statement and beliefs to be measured" NOT "allowing the accuracy of their statement and beliefs to be measured accurately"! It gives the person complaining some feedback and provides a rough guide about whether their complaints have any basis in reality.
    2) The level of misery endured by past generations has nothing to do with the situation. Saying "others have it worse" does not disprove the statement "I have had it worse than you have had it" when used in a one-on-one conversation.
    3) Psychologically belittling another is usually not the motive but a side effect act of self-preservation - avoiding the trivialisation of one's own experiences.

    and

    4) All this seems straight out of a psychologist's textbook, mixed with what appears to be poor understanding of the subject on your part. If I were to hazard a guess based on the way you expressed all this... I would say you taught yourself to believe this out of a sense of resignation where you determined any other viewpoint is unjust and underneath it all you don't want to believe all this. /just my opinion.
    1. Okay..rough guide, perhaps justifying their complaints, signifying what exactly? Is comparing one's subjective sufferings with another person's in the unconstructive manner perceivably being expressed by the OP (i.e. "ghetto syndrome") really the best way of communicating with another person to reach a form of validation?

    2. True, I just added that to add some context to what I feel is a discussion about a rather trivial and not very useful human behavior/way of communicating.

    3. Psychologically belittling others, even if a side effect of an act of self preservation and not the motive, is still a behavior best avoided for harmonious social relations, as it is in my opinion, a form of emotional displacement/projection.

    4. I can see why you might think that, but I could also see your own response to my posts as having hit a nerve of their own with you, clouding your understanding of my motives and the content of what I was trying to get at. In my opinion, sometimes the most true and valuable things to teach oneself and believe are the things that we do not want to. It makes sense that this could appear as resignation.

  2. #12
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I can't stand "one uppers". The people I've known who are most prone to doing this when discussing their problems are 2s, and they do it in such a way that shows a pride in how "strong" they are to have conquered & survived. Their "tragedy" has been external, but internally they claim a wholeness still.

    I'm pretty sure in the 2's mind, telling you they've had it worse qualifies them to "inspire" and "support" you. I think in their minds, it's like saying "If I survived/am coping with something worse, than you can survive/cope with this!". But to others it just sounds like invalidation, a competition, almost a weird kind of bragging.

    In light of the OP's other posts about 4s, I wonder if he is not dealing with a Histrionic 2.... Sure, 4s disintegrate at 2, but it doesn't usually manifest in such a way that they'll look like a 2.

    Anyhow, I don't feel I have it worse in terms of circumstances. The tragedy I feel is internal. There's something "less" about my essence as a person, not something worse about my circumstances. I'm not whole or significant, and no amount of great stuff in life can change that. I realize this when good things do happen to me & I don't have the gratitude I should have. One part of the envy is that others can be mundane, ordinary, & suffer even, but still have this wholeness & significance that allows them to be happy and make connections with others.

    Also, if other people have a lot of pain because they have/have had a lot of real problems, then their pain can be solved by removing the problems, healing, moving on, etc.

    However, if you "know" that your pain is simply YOU, that you are in essence "pain", then how do you solve your pain?

    You get rid of yourself. In order to do this, you must devalue yourself. You have to feel insignificant to others. You have to withdraw all that is good, special, and significant about yourself so that no one confirms or denies its value. You withdraw from relationships & self-sabotage your talents. To a 4, this feels like a protection of self though, but it perpetuates a cycle. When the 4 put themselves out there, they feel like it needs to be authentic in order to feel any real significance from people's response to it, but this can leave them misunderstood & devalued by others.

    That's why the 4 is the Masochistic type. They are kind of always "trying to die", appear to be pursuing pain & humiliation.

    This does make for someone who operates emotionally very contrary to general human nature, which is why literature notes 4s are unusual, not because anything else about them is particularly special or unique. It's the ego fix itself that is bizarre, because most ego fixes seek to protect people from hurt. 4s seek hurt, pain, & NOT "surviving". A person demanding attention, to have needs met, is trying to survive, which is not very 4ish (but very unhealthy 2ish, & some other types can fit this, like 7s). It IS 4ish to hope deep down that someone saves you from yourself though, and looking sad can attract a "rescuer".

    This is why the 4 is envious, even of people who have even greater problems/pain than they do, because these people are not the source of their own pain. Their pain is real, and that is enviable in a way, because it means they are living & they have the ability to grow & heal.

    So if you say "other people have worse problems" or "others feel deep pain too", the 4 knows this. It only reinforces that something is wrong with them, not their life, not their circumstances, but their soul. "Why can't I feel happy? Because I was made wrong…"

    Sometimes 4s try to latch onto SOMETHING to explain why they are "wrong" (their childhood, for example), because the ego is trying to justify this feeling. In reality, there is nothing wrong with the 4, but acknowledging this emotionally (not intellectually; that's not hard to do ) is lessening the grip of the ego.

    When others point out they have the same or worse problems, yet are (or appear to be) happy still, it invalidates the 4's ego. It's saying "there's nothing wrong with you!". It's telling the 4 they have no reason for pain; then what? It comes down to - "you simply ARE pain" - you are unable to be unhappy despite not being worse off than most people. Then that leads to withdrawal - or destroying your presence in the external. To accept there is nothing wrong with them, a 4 has to begin to see their own significance.

    One of the primary ways a 4 can grow is taking on the pain of others, the opposite of one-upping, IMO. Because 4s aren't scared of pain, they'll empathize heavily with those who need it, and the positive results of their empathy makes them see they can help people. This gives the 4 a sense of significance & helps them see that they don't just exist as pain, but can exist as a remedy to it also. I notice 4s respond very empathetically to others' pain as long as no one is saying "you should be happy cuz I have it worse!".
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chawie View Post
    1. Okay..rough guide, perhaps justifying their complaints, signifying what exactly? Is comparing one's subjective sufferings with another person's in the unconstructive manner perceivably being expressed by the OP (i.e. "ghetto syndrome") really the best way of communicating with another person to reach a form of validation?

    2. True, I just added that to add some context to what I feel is a discussion about a rather trivial and not very useful human behavior/way of communicating.

    3. Psychologically belittling others, even if a side effect of an act of self preservation and not the motive, is still a behavior best avoided for harmonious social relations, as it is in my opinion, a form of emotional displacement/projection.

    4. I can see why you might think that, but I could also see your own response to my posts as having hit a nerve of their own with you, clouding your understanding of my motives and the content of what I was trying to get at. In my opinion, sometimes the most true and valuable things to teach oneself and believe are the things that we do not want to. It makes sense that this could appear as resignation.
    Note: The position I am arguing is not actually my own. It is a deviation of my own and it hasn't really hit a nerve (also an answer to point 4.)

    1) Perhaps not the best way but you only need an effective way. All the complainer needs to conclude is "they have also suffered a lot, perhaps I was wrong" after listening to the other's testimony and resolution is achieved from this.
    Nothing else to say about the other three.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    What does a 4 gain in understanding themselves by one-upping people? especially if it's to create an identity that depends on devaluing other's experiences...seems extremely superficial.

  5. #15
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    This kind of thing is more competitive in nature than I would expect from an e4. It's more like saying "look at how much harder I had to work to pull myself up than you!" Or, like @OrangeAppled said, something like "admire me for how strong and forbearing I am."

    I think e4s actually believe (or need to believe) that the emotional hurts they've suffered have made them broken and they're special because of it. Not that they're special because they've overcome.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #16
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I feel like that's really 3w4 more than 4. I used to have this 3w4 coworker who KILLED us with this shit. Her story ALWAYS had to one-up yours.

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