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  1. #21
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    @djarendee. This doesn't sound like love. It sounds like infatuation. You are both idealizing each other into what you each 'could be' to the other person. (so close; so far away). But this relationship is quite toxic.

    If she's the experienced one - she isn't learning anything from her experiences. Sounds like a lot of mind games with her. That is feeding your desire for intense emotions. I would take some introspection about why YOU need or value that to FEEL. Because you're going to repeat this type of dynamic. It's not healthy.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  2. #22
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    @Standuble
    We got really comfortable and close together. I asked her to be my companion over text. At first she was like, "life is too short! I'm up for something new and exciting! I miss my family so much, but at the same time I've never felt so loved and special! Life begins at the end of your comfort zone!" (She does this strawman thing where its like she's talking about how amazing the clouds are, or how amazing her hypothetical boyfriend makes her feel. And when she has something negative to say, she says it directly at me. Its bullshit.) Anyway she did that, I got excited. I said, "great, come over here and have a drink with me and let me kiss you for a change."

    It seemed like she was pumping herself up to get ready to be in a relationship with me, and then chickened out.

    "I can't... I just cancelled a date for tonight. I feel I need to be left alone."

    Anyway she provoked me into a conversation with her that led to me admitting to her that I was falling in love with her. It went all night. Next morning she's telling me she never wants to hear from me again, and that we can't be friends because "you [djarendee] can't accept that my feelings won't change!" She sends me this song "Rhianna - Stay" because apparently that's how she feels in life, which is still vague and confusing to me.

    Sometimes she says she values our friendship, one time I told her I wasn't her friend and couldn't be. She calls me back 2 weeks later in tears talking about how attracted she is to me and how she cares about me etc.

    So basically, we get super close, she starts saying things like, "we should get matching ____" and she'll wear a leather jacket out to dinner with me because she realized I was wearing mine. Then We have a good time. Then I feel like I'm ready to start a relationship with her and she is too! So I ask, and its almost like she said yes, but NOT QUITE!

    And now she's cursing me out telling me we can no longer speak to each other.

    Fuck this shit. Seriously. EVERY GOD DAMN 4 has been this way.

    I desire the emotion because it satisfies me! It terrifies me! Its a challenge and its ever present! The physical attraction is there, the passion is incredible. Its a great thing that none of the other types bring to me. So why look anywhere else?

    I'm pretty sure she'll call me back in a couple weeks. Its been this way for 9 months. I'm fucking sick of it. A woman who wants to be "Just friends" doesn't get this emotionally intense, doesn't buy me dinner every couple weeks, doesn't tell me she's done talking to other guys.
    There's no "there" there. Type 4s might seem shiny and sparkly to you, but I strongly suspect that dramatic emotional intensity is what you think you want, not what you really want.

    True love isn't that dramatic. It only appears dramatic in stories (movies, TV, books) because love stories need to have drama in order to be entertaining, and drama in love means that something is going wrong, often very wrong.

    Real love is remarkably calm. That doesn't mean without passion, but it does mean without histrionics.

    You appear to equate drama with emotional depth. Drama is perhaps the shallowest version of emotional depth. This is what your experiences are trying to tell you, but because you've perhaps not really experienced true emotional depth (no insult intended - but experiences are like that, you either have them or you don't), you overestimate the value of the emotional dramatics. FWIW, I'm speaking from real experience. I've been with 4s that are worse than you describe, and am currently with a 4 that abhors drama.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    There's no "there" there. Type 4s might seem shiny and sparkly to you, but I strongly suspect that dramatic emotional intensity is what you think you want, not what you really want.

    True love isn't that dramatic. It only appears dramatic in stories (movies, TV, books) because love stories need to have drama in order to be entertaining, and drama in love means that something is going wrong, often very wrong.

    Real love is remarkably calm. That doesn't mean without passion, but it does mean without histrionics.

    You appear to equate drama with emotional depth. Drama is perhaps the shallowest version of emotional depth. This is what your experiences are trying to tell you, but because you've perhaps not really experienced true emotional depth (no insult intended - but experiences are like that, you either have them or you don't), you overestimate the value of the emotional dramatics. FWIW, I'm speaking from real experience. I've been with 4s that are worse than you describe, and am currently with a 4 that abhors drama.
    Thanks, this makes sense. Yeah I've started to notice recently that there is this sort of shallow "OMG DRAMA" thing that happens where its a big fantasy land with a lot of powerful emotions, of which were melancholy and kinda depressing and tragic. But as we got to know each other those started to disappear and be replaced with a more caring and understanding teamwork kind of thing. But its also possible she was blowing that out of proportion by wearing clothes to match mine (ie: leather jackets and running shells)

  4. #24
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    True love isn't that dramatic. It only appears dramatic in stories (movies, TV, books) because love stories need to have drama in order to be entertaining, and drama in love means that something is going wrong, often very wrong.

    Real love is remarkably calm. That doesn't mean without passion, but it does mean without histrionics.
    I just want to say that this is exactly what I often think about in regards to "love". I tell you. The idea of romance is highly overrated.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  5. #25
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    The 8/4 dance is pretty infamous. I've mentioned elsewhere that Fours seem to be the type that pull me the most, but just like for the OP it never seems to work out. My experience has been that there's a very intense bond that forms, generally to the exclusion of everything else. Boundaries get stripped away early. It's not always healthy. The attraction is pretty straightforward for me: Fours inhabit their inner world as totally and confidently as we navigate the outer one. It doesn't sound like much, but the sense of completion that can be derived from that can feel utter.

    @DJ Arendee, as an ESTP 8w7 you innately possess the traits that will attract Fours to you by the boatload (if you haven't already worked that out). What you apparently owe to yourself is to find one who is stable and mature enough not to use their sophisticated understanding of the human disposition against you (aka fuck around and play games). These kinds of Fours do exist (I'm fortunate enough to have several in my acquaintance). What I'd recommend is becoming clearer about your own needs, rather than just going from entanglement to entanglement based on what feels good to you. Know what you will and will not stand for up front and it will help you to make better decisions about who you date, and will make your relationships more successful accordingly. Pursuing the same chick over and over again and hoping you'll "do it 'right' this time" is not going to help you. Especially given that your particular prediliction seem to have a talent for turning men into warped and hollow shells of their former selves when they're not what they're supposed to be.

    Believe me. I've seen it.

    My point here is that you need to take better care of yourself, guy. Contrary to what we as Eights like to believe about ourselves, we're not invincible, and the emotional damage will take its toll. Figure out what's so attractive about Fours and take stock of yourself to figure out if what you need is really what they're offering. Thus far, it sounds so far like you've dodged some bullets with some crazy bitches, rather than actually missed out on good relationships.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    The 8/4 dance is pretty infamous. I've mentioned elsewhere that Fours seem to be the type that pull me the most, but just like for the OP it never seems to work out. My experience has been that there's a very intense bond that forms, generally to the exclusion of everything else. Boundaries get stripped away early. It's not always healthy. The attraction is pretty straightforward for me: Fours inhabit their inner world as totally and confidently as we navigate the outer one. It doesn't sound like much, but the sense of completion that can be derived from that can feel utter.

    @DJ Arendee, as an ESTP 8w7 you innately possess the traits that will attract Fours to you by the boatload (if you haven't already worked that out). What you apparently owe to yourself is to find one who is stable and mature enough not to use their sophisticated understanding of the human disposition against you (aka fuck around and play games). These kinds of Fours do exist (I'm fortunate enough to have several in my acquaintance). What I'd recommend is becoming clearer about your own needs, rather than just going from entanglement to entanglement based on what feels good to you. Know what you will and will not stand for up front and it will help you to make better decisions about who you date, and will make your relationships more successful accordingly. Pursuing the same chick over and over again and hoping you'll "do it 'right' this time" is not going to help you. Especially given that your particular prediliction seem to have a talent for turning men into warped and hollow shells of their former selves when they're not what they're supposed to be.

    Believe me. I've seen it.

    My point here is that you need to take better care of yourself, guy. Contrary to what we as Eights like to believe about ourselves, we're not invincible, and the emotional damage will take its toll. Figure out what's so attractive about Fours and take stock of yourself to figure out if what you need is really what they're offering. Thus far, it sounds so far like you've dodged some bullets with some crazy bitches, rather than actually missed out on good relationships.
    Great post. You say I'm an 8w7 even though my typing says 8w9. Was there a reason you did that? (I've considered 8w7 because I feel I have a lot more in common with 7 than 9, but always seem to test 9 instead).

    Other than that, yes I know what its like to be turned into a hollow shell. It starts to feel like my soul is burning and I've often backed out of there quick.

    And yes, I think I'm starting to recognize some of the damage that's been done... primarily my threshhold for sexual attraction has been raised to the point where I'm no longer attracted to most women (initially). There are some other issues as well... generally viewing women as worthless wrecks until proven otherwise, etc.

    I do tend to get lost in "what feels good."

    When you say, "know about your own needs" that's kind of difficult for me to understand. Its mostly logical, but nothing heartfelt. And I find it changes quite often. Perhaps this is where I start looking like a 9 wing. So far as an ESTP, the only thing I've truly understand I really need is: I need someone who can reassure me that they can take care of themself, I need that vibrant Fe, and I need them to go at my pace or slower than that. Its hard for me to know what I really need, and a lot of people pick up on this and often tell me what I need. I have a bad habit of taking too much feedback on how to solve my emotional problems and applying it, only to find myself becoming miserable shortly after. I wonder if that's a 9 issue.

  7. #27
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Great post.
    I appreciate it.

    You say I'm an 8w7 even though my typing says 8w9. Was there a reason you did that? (I've considered 8w7 because I feel I have a lot more in common with 7 than 9, but always seem to test 9 instead).
    Mmm. A couple of things. Just based on your posting habits, you strike me as the sort with a lot of energy and a lot of mental activity. I'd believe 8 based on a sorta core solidness, but that frenetic quality around the periphery smacks of the mental triad. I also have a somewhat incohate theory that w7's tend more Pe while w9's tend more Pi.

    Other than that, yes I know what its like to be turned into a hollow shell. It starts to feel like my soul is burning and I've often backed out of there quick.

    And yes, I think I'm starting to recognize some of the damage that's been done... primarily my threshhold for sexual attraction has been raised to the point where I'm no longer attracted to most women (initially). There are some other issues as well... generally viewing women as worthless wrecks until proven otherwise, etc.
    Understandable on both accounts.

    I do tend to get lost in "what feels good."
    My Se isn't as developed as yours is, but I can relate. When you have that feeling in your gut that something is right, then it can feel like fighting gravity to do otherwise. Especially when you have that belief in your heart that no matter what comes up you're capable of handling it. Missing out just feels like it's for suckers.

    When you say, "know about your own needs" that's kind of difficult for me to understand. Its mostly logical, but nothing heartfelt. And I find it changes quite often. Perhaps this is where I start looking like a 9 wing. So far as an ESTP, the only thing I've truly understand I really need is: I need someone who can reassure me that they can take care of themself, I need that vibrant Fe, and I need them to go at my pace or slower than that. Its hard for me to know what I really need, and a lot of people pick up on this and often tell me what I need. I have a bad habit of taking too much feedback on how to solve my emotional problems and applying it, only to find myself becoming miserable shortly after. I wonder if that's a 9 issue.
    I relate to a lot of this due to inferior Fi. I can't exactly be told what to feel, but I all too easily shelve what I do feel in pursuit of whatever Te's hot and bothered about at the time. As for what you're experiencing, I don't think that what you're dealing with a 9 wing so much as being someone's whose expectations have been severely disappointed enough times that you have either lost track of what they are, or find it to painful to continue to believe in them.

    When you say, "know about your own needs" that's kind of difficult for me to understand. Its mostly logical, but nothing heartfelt. And I find it changes quite often. Perhaps this is where I start looking like a 9 wing. So far as an ESTP, the only thing I've truly understand I really need is: I need someone who can reassure me that they can take care of themself, I need that vibrant Fe, and I need them to go at my pace or slower than that. Its hard for me to know what I really need, and a lot of people pick up on this and often tell me what I need. I have a bad habit of taking too much feedback on how to solve my emotional problems and applying it, only to find myself becoming miserable shortly after. I wonder if that's a 9 issue.
    I relate to a lot of this due to inferior Fi. I can't exactly be told what to feel, but I all too easily shelve what I do feel in pursuit of whatever Te's hot and bothered about at the time.

    As for what you're experiencing, I don't think that what you're dealing with is a 9 wing so much as being someone's whose expectations have been severely disappointed enough times that you have either lost track of what they are, or find it too painful to continue to believe in them. This goes back to what I was getting at in my previous post: you’ve gotta take care of yourself. That could mean a lot of things. It could mean sidelining yourself from the game for a while till you’ve come to terms with your romantic past. If you hate women right now, the kind of woman you’re most likely going to attract hates herself, and just guess how that’s gonna turn out for you.

    Taking care of yourself could also mean emotional self-investment. Forgiving yourself for your past so that you can get to a place where you really like yourself. I don’t know you, but you seem to be a decent guy and don’t deserve people who treat you badly. You should believe that, too. If you’re trying to connect with someone cause you can’t live with yourself, then you’re once again setting yourself up for failure. Cause, finally, taking care of yourself ought to mean having standards and abiding by them. If you know that you’re looking for a woman who a) has her shit together, b) is warmly, beautifully, and vibrantly Fe, and c) knows you’re worth it to take things at your pace, then goddamnit you can’t settle for less than that. And—if we’re being real with each other—getting advice from people on how to retread old and fairly dysfunctional ground is not exactly gonna propel you in the direction you’re trying to go. Contrary to what you believe about yourself you do know what you want, and what you’re looking for is by no means unreasonable. There’s nothing so wrong nor so broken about you that you can’t move forward and get it.
    So that’s my take on your situation. I’m not telling you that you need to swear off 4s forever simply because you’ve had some bad experiences. As I’ve said previously, I get it about 4s—I completely 100% understand the appeal. And if what you’re looking for is some little FJ 4wwhatever to sweep off her feet, then you should get that. My point is that you could meet your dream girl tomorrow and flub that shit cause your heads not in the right place. Love starts with self-love and all that jazz. All that I’ve suggested so far is just ways to give yourself the break that you seem to really need.

    In fact (if you wouldn’t feel too silly about it) a good way to start might even be to write down all the things you have to offer a woman in a relationship. Then consider your exes. If the things those women had to offer you doesn’t qualitatively and quantitatively match or exceed your list, then chances are pretty good they were wasting your time. You don’t have to think about these women ever again. If there happen to be some who apparently offered you as much as you did them, then you might think about what went wrong with them. If you have that kind of relationship with them, you might even call them up to talk about it. I’m suggesting this little exercise because a) it’ll be good for you to see just how much you have to offer a woman, b) it’ll hopefully unencumber your soul of some skanks that were not really worth your time to begin with, and c) you’ll be pointed towards the correct resources (aka people who actually know you and not internet people) to get the information you need about what you need to do to be more successful in your next relationship.

    Those are my thoughts. Apologies if I’ve overstepped anywhere. I’ve been through my share of bad relationships, and a lot of this is what worked for me to rehabilitate my confidence afterwards. I don’t think any of it should make you miserable afterwards as increasing your self-esteem and self-respect never hurt anyone. You seem to be a very love-centered individual, and that is wonderful. Have faith in yourself, and I’m sure you’ll work it out.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  8. #28
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    thanks, great advice. It makes sense that my bad mindset can attract the wrong women.

    No you're not overstepping your bounds. I've had a lot of negative nancies in my life who tell me that what I want isn't possible. I see this behavior in so many others, its hard to not at least think "hmm, what if they're right?"

    I DO know what I want, but I've had people telling me that its unrealistic. IE: I want a girlfriend with the attitude and personality of molotov coqutiz (from the venture brothers... something about brock and molotov's interaction I identify with, haha).



    I tell my parents I just want a job that's fun that I enjoy, and my dad goes on this tirade about how "people go their whole lives searching for that and never find it."

    I'll have to think about the 7 wing. I identify with both wings though. I have 7 in my tritype as well (8 7 3) so I'm sure that confuses things even more.

  9. #29
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Shackles....are they on the table here? Are they allowed?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Shackles....are they on the table here? Are they allowed?
    What is your avatar? I want to see a bigger version of it, it looks kinda awesome.

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