User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 31

  1. #11
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    7,376

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    All the ought's and should's that people carry around with them can warp their vision of themselves.

    If you constantly reject certain parts or are unwilling to even explore certain parts of yourself because of your fear of finding something unacceptable, then you'll always lack that grounded view of yourself.
    This.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  2. #12
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    173 so/sx
    Posts
    18,450

    Default

    Now that I have time to reply...

    @Coriolis and @Magic Poriferan, I'll go into a little more detail about how I was thinking of unconditional self-acceptance. Frankly, I was considering using the phrase "unconditional self-love", instead, but being the ESTJ I am, I went "that's too sappy, I won't stand for it", and opted for something a bit more feeling-neutral. But the fact that I had to decide between those two, is a sign that I was generally referring to the same thing. Acceptance is a pretty important part of love. There's the old saying about loving someone for their flaws, as much as for the good parts of them. So, you love them for things that you might not think would be "worthy" of love, simply because you love ALL of them.

    But at the same time, if you love someone, that doesn't automatically make you a passive enabler. I mean, for God's sake, anyone who's friends or SOs with an ESTJ will know that we meddle in your business like no one else, if we care about you. Just because we accept you for who you are, "warts and all", doesn't mean we won't try to help you be the best person you can be, or to make the best decisions you can make. But it does mean that we're never going to berate you for something inherent about yourself -- because when we came to love you, we did so having read the metaphorical fine print, i.e. aware of what we were getting into.

    So... I figured the same thing should apply with the self. I have plenty of friends that I accept for who they are. One of my best friends is an ENFP who makes all of her major life decisions at the drop of a hat, and laughs in the face of long-term planning -- which used to drive me up the wall, until I fully accepted that part of her. So why can't I do the same thing for me? I mean, friends come and go, we all cross paths and then leave each other's lives inevitably, but the only person I'm going to be stuck with for my entire existence is myself. So I might as well learn to live with myself, right?

    In other words...
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
    It just means you don't hate yourself when you make a mistake.
    ^ This.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    This may be very ISFJ of me to say....but I feel like you need hug EJCC

    It is very, very ISFJ, but that is not a bad thing!

    I will take you up on that --
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  3. #13
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    173 so/sx
    Posts
    18,450

    Default

    Re: everyone else, thank you for your replies

    I think it's necessary for me to give a bit more personal detail. I'll leave it to the forum to decide whether this is type-related or not. (All my type information is in my sig.)

    I tend to view myself as having a few core strengths and core weaknesses. As I've gotten older and more mature -- I'm 22 now -- my strengths have amplified and my weaknesses have diminished, to a degree that I personally find pretty shocking, though I don't know how others perceive it. Thus, much more than other people I know, I tend to see my "self" on a timeline: I used to be an overbearing asshole, now I'm not. I used to be unable to keep myself from calling people out on their bullshit, and now I've gained that skill. I used to be selfish, a bad listener, and not the best friend a person could have. Now I am the opposite. Frankly, I look back on myself, and I'm ashamed -- and even though part of me is concerned that, a decade from now, I'll realize that I was a 22-year-old asshole too, I'm pretty happy with how I've turned out when I compare present-day me to past me.

    As a result of all of this, my personality has been shaped to include this view, and this insecurity:

    The view = that every core aspect of myself can vary widely given the situation, that it's all essentially temporary, and that it takes willpower to stay "good", as my tendency (from being Te-dom and a 1w2) is to be "bad" (i.e. blunt, domineering, quick to make enemies, not self-aware).

    The insecurity = that everything I value about myself could be reversed in an instant, and that I couldn't gain it back. That something similar to the change that occurred in me from my early teens to my early twenties, could happen again, in a bad way -- with a vengeance.

    I had a dream, a week or so ago, where I went to a hairstylist, told them just to give me a trim, and they chopped my hair down from its current (and recent) long length, to the short length where it was for almost the past ten years. I was absolutely mortified, and when I woke up, the first thing I did was put my hand up to my head to see if all my hair was still there. I mention this because the symbolism is pretty clear, and proves both the above view and the above insecurity.

    So... again, I don't know how much of that is type-related (or at least, type-typical), but that's where I'm coming from with this thread. If I do something "wrong", there isn't a concrete sense of "that wasn't ME, that doesn't define me", because "me" has changed so much, that even with those core strengths/weaknesses that I'm certain about, I don't have a strong sense of a permanent "me". And from what I understand of self-acceptance, you need to be able to accept your weaknesses, as if they are unchanging.
    Last edited by EJCC; 02-22-2013 at 01:35 PM. Reason: Clarification
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  4. #14
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,664

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    It is very, very ISFJ, but that is not a bad thing!

    I will take you up on that --


    I imagine if I were to ever find you and hug you it would look something like this...

    tumblr_llyxcuGVPB1qhigt0o1_500.gif

    Now then, to the op: I think a lot of disagreement here is going to result from semantics. "Unconditional" implies that you are willing to accept things that may need improvement and/or that could potentially harm another individual.

    I think what the OP was trying to get at (and it's something I agree with) is that you should be to always accept yourself and forgive yourself for your failings. It doesn't mean you should ignore your failings or cease to work on them, just that you should cut yourself a break and accept that you are human and prone to making mistakes.

    This may sound like common sense to some, but to an ESTJ Type 1, I imagine this is a big deal.

    Thusly, I must conclude.....MOAR HUGZ FOR THE TYPE 1'S AND ESTJS

    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  5. #15
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    @Coriolis and @Magic Poriferan, I'll go into a little more detail about how I was thinking of unconditional self-acceptance. Frankly, I was considering using the phrase "unconditional self-love", instead, but being the ESTJ I am, I went "that's too sappy, I won't stand for it", and opted for something a bit more feeling-neutral. But the fact that I had to decide between those two, is a sign that I was generally referring to the same thing. Acceptance is a pretty important part of love. There's the old saying about loving someone for their flaws, as much as for the good parts of them. So, you love them for things that you might not think would be "worthy" of love, simply because you love ALL of them.
    Love might be closer to your meaning. To me, acceptance and change are mutually exclusive. If you want to change or to improve or to grow beyond something, you are by definition rejecting that thing or some aspect of it in favor of what you consider better. This also might be related to the idea of making a distinction between a person and his/her actions. I might love my SO no matter what he does, but not be willing to accept his habit of strewing his belongings through the house every day. He in turn might not accept my nagging him over it, so we reach a compromise and each improve in our own way.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    But at the same time, if you love someone, that doesn't automatically make you a passive enabler. I mean, for God's sake, anyone who's friends or SOs with an ESTJ will know that we meddle in your business like no one else, if we care about you. Just because we accept you for who you are, "warts and all", doesn't mean we won't try to help you be the best person you can be, or to make the best decisions you can make. But it does mean that we're never going to berate you for something inherent about yourself -- because when we came to love you, we did so having read the metaphorical fine print, i.e. aware of what we were getting into.
    The highlighted is critical. If there is anything I will accept unconditionally about a person, it is their commitment to growth and development. I need to make sure, though, I am helping them become the person they want to be, and not what I want them to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    One of my best friends is an ENFP who makes all of her major life decisions at the drop of a hat, and laughs in the face of long-term planning -- which used to drive me up the wall, until I fully accepted that part of her. So why can't I do the same thing for me?
    Because you are not in charge of your friend's life the way you are in charge of your own. If I value staying fit, or quitting a bad habit, or learning a new skill, I have the right to make myself do these things, and perhaps to suggest them to a friend. If he/she is not interested, however, my choices are to stay friends with them anyway, or discontinue the relationship. Some things are true show-stoppers and might lead to the second choice. Otherwise, what I am accepting by staying friends is the reality that the other person has the right to make his/her own choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I tend to view myself as having a few core strengths and core weaknesses. As I've gotten older and more mature -- I'm 22 now -- my strengths have amplified and my weaknesses have diminished, to a degree that I personally find pretty shocking, though I don't know how others perceive it. Thus, much more than other people I know, I tend to see my "self" on a timeline: I used to be an overbearing asshole, now I'm not. I used to be unable to keep myself from calling people out on their bullshit, and now I've gained that skill. I used to be selfish, a bad listener, and not the best friend a person could have. Now I am the opposite. Frankly, I look back on myself, and I'm ashamed -- and even though part of me is concerned that, a decade from now, I'll realize that I was a 22-year-old asshole too, I'm pretty happy with how I've turned out when I compare present-day me to past me.
    One thing we absolutely must accept is our past, our own and others'. To do otherwise is nonsensical, since it cannot be changed. It should certainly not be allowed to outweigh someone's present and future, especially if they are making an effort to move beyond it and do better. Your paragraph above is a perfect illustration of this. Let GO of what you didn't like about your past actions, except as an illustration of how far you have come, and an indication of the personal growth of which you are manifestly capable.

    P.S. Don't worry - I wouldn't attempt a hug unless you were in dire need and expressly requested it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #16
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    4,813

    Default

    I believe in self-compassion more than self-acceptance although i think self-acceptance could include that. I'm just worried about oprah-esque self-esteem bullshit. I think self-compassion leaves room for recognition of one's faults that really exist and yet avoiding self-condemnation of those faults.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    All the ought's and should's that people carry around with them can warp their vision of themselves.
    I totally agree that they can. The most important place for shoulds and oughts is in the present when you can actually act on them. Too often i've used shoulds and oughts when reflecting on the past and just used them for self-condemnation.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #17
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5/8
    Socionics
    ENTp None
    Posts
    4,754

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post

    As a result of all of this, my personality has been shaped to include this view, and this insecurity:

    The view = that every core aspect of myself can vary widely given the situation, that it's all essentially temporary, and that it takes willpower to stay "good", as my tendency (from being Te-dom and a 1w2) is to be "bad" (i.e. blunt, domineering, quick to make enemies, not self-aware).

    The insecurity = that everything I value about myself could be reversed in an instant, and that I couldn't gain it back. That something similar to the change that occurred in me from my early teens to my early twenties, could happen again, in a bad way -- with a vengeance.
    It's important to establish identity outside of what others want for us -- especially when growing up in a well-structured, supportive environment (which it sounds like you've enjoyed). Being able to find predictability in our early lives and having the luck to anchor ourselves to trustworthy adults as children is a frequent similarity in happy, productive adults. It has its drawbacks, as too much accessibility and support can produce excessive obedience to external evaluations (getting "good grades") at the expense of personal autonomy -- especially during early adulthood.

    So, be aware that you could be experiencing natural insecurity from being forced to create your own value in your behavior, as you now lack the reinforcement and security from your support system, insofar as you've come to enjoy up to this point in life.

  8. #18
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/so
    Posts
    1,565

    Default

    I can see how your particular struggle could be e1 related. The defensive structure of type 1s is all about being good/right/perfect. This is largely aimed at oneself, but also tends to spill over onto the people around one (especially on close friends and loved ones).

    I could see that as one grapples with this, one might expand one's definition of being good/right/perfect to include not being harsh or judgmental with the people in one's life. But then how does one attack the problem? The stereotypical one approach is to buckle down, tense-up, and channel energy from anger at a problem; to marshal one's will and forceably power through the problem ,but in this case case that tends to make the problem worse. So what can one do instead?

    A big challenge for the one is see oneself as worthwhile and lovable even when one is imperfect. But there's still the fear that if one allows oneself to be imperfect, the whole house of cards will collapse. Typically, this manifests as a fear that the internal anger will be expressed destructively if one lets one's guard down, or that without the obsessive hyper-vigilence about correctness, one will slide into laziness, disorder and other bad behavior.

    So, it seems like part of the trick would be to practice the same compassion (I like Beorn's "self-compassion") that you show your friends to yourself. Another part might be allowing yourself to be imperfect in minor ways, and so discover that people still accept and love you. Sounds to me like you've made significant progress on both of those fronts (more so than I have on my e-type-related issues, I suspect).

    Still, knowing your e1 tendencies are still there may lead you to feel like you are bad/wrong/unacceptable inside, and may still feel afraid that if you aren't vigilant (and if that inner nature gets out), you'll be revealed as fundamentally flawed and unlovable. Sounds like a natural reaction to loosening your grip on being perfect, while still being aware that you have the same e-type related tendencies. Whenever we challenge our defensive structures, it's threatening and we tend to experience panic on some level at not having those defenses engaged 100% of the time. Lowering defenses is frightening and makes us feel exposed and vulnerable.

    I think every type struggles with self-acceptance (or self-compassion) on some level, though. Still, I think some of the specific struggles and how they play out relate to psychological defenses (which in turn can be enneagram type related).

  9. #19
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    173 so/sx
    Posts
    18,450

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post


    I imagine if I were to ever find you and hug you it would look something like this...

    tumblr_llyxcuGVPB1qhigt0o1_500.gif
    Only if you really took me by surprise! Otherwise I'd hug you back.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I think what the OP was trying to get at (and it's something I agree with) is that you should be to always accept yourself and forgive yourself for your failings. It doesn't mean you should ignore your failings or cease to work on them, just that you should cut yourself a break and accept that you are human and prone to making mistakes.

    This may sound like common sense to some, but to an ESTJ Type 1, I imagine this is a big deal.
    You've got it! +1
    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Thusly, I must conclude.....MOAR HUGZ FOR THE TYPE 1'S AND ESTJS

    !
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Love might be closer to your meaning. To me, acceptance and change are mutually exclusive. If you want to change or to improve or to grow beyond something, you are by definition rejecting that thing or some aspect of it in favor of what you consider better. This also might be related to the idea of making a distinction between a person and his/her actions. I might love my SO no matter what he does, but not be willing to accept his habit of strewing his belongings through the house every day. He in turn might not accept my nagging him over it, so we reach a compromise and each improve in our own way.
    Right, but you accept him as a person no matter what, right?

    The bolded is key, I think, to what I meant in the first post. Being accepting and forgiving of yourself by separating your sense of self-worth from your individual actions, a bit. Obviously not entirely; you've already stated the dangers around that pretty nicely, in this thread. I just mean, enough that changing your actions doesn't feel like changing yourself, but feels like synchronizing your actions with your self and your principles?

    I'm thinking out loud here. I dunno.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    P.S. Don't worry - I wouldn't attempt a hug unless you were in dire need and expressly requested it.
    Duly noted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I believe in self-compassion more than self-acceptance although i think self-acceptance could include that. I'm just worried about oprah-esque self-esteem bullshit. I think self-compassion leaves room for recognition of one's faults that really exist and yet avoiding self-condemnation of those faults.
    Damn, this thread is really getting nitpicky about the terminology. :/ I had been thinking of "self-love", "self-acceptance", "self-compassion", "self-forgiveness", etc, as all pretty much being under the same umbrella. Alternately known as: "Letting yourself fall down and get back up without beating yourself back to the ground again", or, less dramatically, "cutting yourself some slack, for once in your damn life".
    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    It's important to establish identity outside of what others want for us -- especially when growing up in a well-structured, supportive environment (which it sounds like you've enjoyed). Being able to find predictability in our early lives and having the luck to anchor ourselves to trustworthy adults as children is a frequent similarity in happy, productive adults. It has its drawbacks, as too much accessibility and support can produce excessive obedience to external evaluations (getting "good grades") at the expense of personal autonomy -- especially during early adulthood.

    So, be aware that you could be experiencing natural insecurity from being forced to create your own value in your behavior, as you now lack the reinforcement and security from your support system, insofar as you've come to enjoy up to this point in life.
    Firstly... Night! You're posting! Does that mean you're back??
    Damn, it's been so long. How've you been?

    ...*ahem*... Secondly... I've been hoping that this is all "part of growing up" -- which would make sense, i.e. that what I'm experiencing is essentially identity whiplash from maturing so quickly -- because that means it'll go away eventually. Although, if that's true, then that means it'll naturally fade away, when I'd been hoping, with the creation of this thread, that there was some thought path I could take to quicken the process.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I can see how your particular struggle could be e1 related. The defensive structure of type 1s is all about being good/right/perfect. This is largely aimed at oneself, but also tends to spill over onto the people around one (especially on close friends and loved ones).
    Yeah. Social 1w2s are especially known for that. I actually mistyped as sp/sx for a while, because all the so/sx descriptions emphasized that sort of perfection-evangelizing -- and even though I used to be prone towards that, I'm not anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I could see that as one grapples with this, one might expand one's definition of being good/right/perfect to include not being harsh or judgmental with the people in one's life. But then how does one attack the problem? The stereotypical one approach is to buckle down, tense-up, and channel energy from anger at a problem; to marshal one's will and forceably power through the problem ,but in this case case that tends to make the problem worse. So what can one do instead?

    A big challenge for the one is see oneself as worthwhile and lovable even when one is imperfect. But there's still the fear that if one allows oneself to be imperfect, the whole house of cards will collapse. Typically, this manifests as a fear that the internal anger will be expressed destructively if one lets one's guard down, or that without the obsessive hyper-vigilence about correctness, one will slide into laziness, disorder and other bad behavior.
    Jeez. Yeah, that's exactly it, 100%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So, it seems like part of the trick would be to practice the same compassion (I like Beorn's "self-compassion") that you show your friends to yourself. Another part might be allowing yourself to be imperfect in minor ways, and so discover that people still accept and love you.
    That's worth trying. I tend to not talk about my failures to my friends.

    Worth a shot?
    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Sounds to me like you've made significant progress on both of those fronts (more so than I have on my e-type-related issues, I suspect).
    I'd like to think I've made a lot of progress. I feel like I'm living closer to my moral standards, now. But on the other hand, living closer to my moral standards means fighting my natural tendencies, which means that my natural tendencies aren't morally upright. (And it's that sort of thought process that gets you to thinking that you're "bad", no matter how much you try to dress yourself in fleece and live among the sheep.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Still, knowing your e1 tendencies are still there may lead you to feel like you are bad/wrong/unacceptable inside, and may still feel afraid that if you aren't vigilant (and if that inner nature gets out), you'll be revealed as fundamentally flawed and unlovable. Sounds like a natural reaction to loosening your grip on being perfect, while still being aware that you have the same e-type related tendencies. Whenever we challenge our defensive structures, it's threatening and we tend to experience panic on some level at not having those defenses engaged 100% of the time. Lowering defenses is frightening and makes us feel exposed and vulnerable.
    Wow. It makes a ton of sense when you put it that way.

    So, what happens next? I've challenged my e-type tendency, i.e. the entire structural basis of my existence. And now I feel like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Is there something else I should be doing? Do I just wait for it to ease up naturally?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Right, but you accept him as a person no matter what, right?

    The bolded is key, I think, to what I meant in the first post. Being accepting and forgiving of yourself by separating your sense of self-worth from your individual actions, a bit. Obviously not entirely; you've already stated the dangers around that pretty nicely, in this thread. I just mean, enough that changing your actions doesn't feel like changing yourself, but feels like synchronizing your actions with your self and your principles?
    No, I'm not sure I would accept my SO as a person, no matter what. If "what" turned out to be that he was cheating on me, or defrauding his grandma of her savings, or molesting the boy next door, I don't think I could accept him any more. Actions this egregious, however, would suggest to me that the problem was indeed with himself as a person.

    There is, after all, a connection between who we are inside and what we do. Bologna mentioned this on his blog, in reference to changing habits by becoming the kind of person who does the preferred action. I think it can go both ways: we can modify our internal actions until they bring about the internal change, essentially "faking it until we make it"; or we can, perhaps through introspection or meditation, effect an internal change of values or perspective that pervades our external actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I'd like to think I've made a lot of progress. I feel like I'm living closer to my moral standards, now. But on the other hand, living closer to my moral standards means fighting my natural tendencies, which means that my natural tendencies aren't morally upright. (And it's that sort of thought process that gets you to thinking that you're "bad", no matter how much you try to dress yourself in fleece and live among the sheep.)
    At the risk of appearing morally lacking, I evaluate my actions less in terms of good vs. bad than effective vs. ineffective. What are your goals and values? If your actions further your values and bring you closer to your goals, you are being effective. No need for guilt, shame, or self-flagellation. If something wasn't effective, that's penalty enough. Just figure out what went wrong, and fix it next time.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

Similar Threads

  1. Of Self Acceptance
    By durentu in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-18-2009, 02:15 AM
  2. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-02-2007, 06:34 AM
  3. sentimental, self-indulgent me!
    By chatoyer in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-02-2007, 04:24 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO