[Type 8] Can Enneagram 8's really have a deep, loving union with someone?

[DiscoBiscuit]

^ pretty much.

 

[Newbyagain]

Are we capable of deep, loving unions? Naturally. You can't forget that we're 2s underneath everything else, and most of us want nothing more than someone worthy of us to lavish all that love and affection upon. I've been accused of being selfish in a relationship, but never by someone who I was truly in love with. With them I have a tendancy to be giving to a fault. If it was just a matter of being inclined to have companionship and a warm body in my bed, then the fact of the matter is that it's unlikely for me to see the person as much more. I don't get too attached or invested unless it's what's in my heart to do so. We can enjoy each other's company, but it's more like a mutually beneficial business arrangement than a pledge of undying affection.

My point is that if you've never felt that your 8s wouldn't think twice about taking a bullet for you, then they probably weren't that into you. Either that or they were pushed for more than they were ready to give and it ended up blowing up in your face.

No, he has never experienced anything as soul connecting. He fell HARD, but I saw on his social media accounts that he thought he could do better. I think mostly because I haven't graduated yet.

 

[rav3n]

No, he has never experienced anything as soul connecting. He fell HARD, but I saw on his social media accounts that he thought he could do better. I think mostly because I haven't graduated yet.

If your 8 thought he could do better, he wasn't that into you.

 

[violet_crown]

If your 8 thought he could do better, he wasn't that into you.

QFT

 

[rav3n]

QFT

To be fair to her, it's a pretty tough grind to get beyond our natural 'trust issues' walls. But once someone's made it to our inner circle, those same walls will also protect and cosset that person.

 

[Newbyagain]

If your 8 thought he could do better, he wasn't that into you.

QFT

I don't think that is very thoughtful for you to say that. This is a very sensitive issue. Trust me, I am quick to jump the gun and think the worst of everything, but no he fell hard. He is an ESTP Eight and Five. All three types are notorious for not being very guided by their emotions. He is extremely flashy and successful and with his personality, that along with who is seen on his arm, is more important than any amount of feeling. He barely knew me and two years later, he is just now working past his emotions and sits and complains online in front of me that he is attracted to weak women and he despises that part of himself. For two years I watched him in agony of being away from me all while saying he will replace me for someone better. He was a very nasty man. But recently, by everything I have read and how I have seen him behave, I am positive, he is not an average Eight but a very sick sociopath. I think his lack of emotional intelligence makes it seemingly impossible for him to forsee any destructive behavior until after the fact and even afterwards, he is only focused on how it affects him. He went through at least ten women in a year, claiming he wants to be more like me and he wants someone just like me only more successful professionally, and wants to get married, but then he realized he couldn't replace me, but once he realized all of these things, it's like he still doesn't "get it". It took him dating all of these women and actually the point of talking about marriage with atleast five before he began to realize bonding isn't something that happens just by going through the motions. He literally took the idea of me, and tried recreating on others. I have come to realize, I think some sociopaths can fall in love, but they are incapable of maintaining it.

 

[violet_crown]

To be fair to her, it's a pretty tough grind to get beyond our natural 'trust issues' walls. But once someone's made it to our inner circle, those same walls will also protect and cosset that person.

That is very true. But equally valid is the original point that you made that it's very easy to tell when someone is or is not within that circle. I'd add to that those same trust issues make loyalty something we esteem very highly. This guy's willingness to disrespect the OP in public simply doesn't say good things about her value to him. It would be true for any type, but is doubly so in the case of an 8 for the reasons I just stated.

 

[Newbyagain]

That is very true. But equally valid is the original point that you made that it's very easy to tell when someone is or is not within that circle. I'd add to that those same trust issues make loyalty something we esteem very highly. This guy's willingness to disrespect the OP in public simply doesn't say good things about her value to him. It would be true for any type, but is doubly so in the case of an 8 for the reasons I just stated.

First, before you read this, I didn't keep in touch with him after he gave his excuses for why it wouldn't go anywhere and when we were together, I didn't believe he was talking to anybody else.

He doesn't respect anybody. Plus he never said my name or very many details in these accounts, he keeps what he vents about as general as possible. And at first it seemed like he assumed I wasn't aware of these accounts, but still I think anybody else would have considered the possibility. Plus all of these girls who were his monthly commitments because they were better than me, he was still talking about his agony over missing me, and complaining about things that he didn't like about them. I guess he is lucky they never checked those accounts. I am suprised. Sometimes I wondered if some of his comments were really kind of passive ways to manipulate and be in control. I noticed if he got upset with me over his innapropriate demands, he would get up and go make a text and in retrospect I think he would text a girl, as a way to disrespect me and keep himself in control. I don't even think he enjoyed much time with these girls. When I wouldn't sleep with him, he went and made a text. I have read about sociopaths, that unlike other disorders, it includes brain damage, and they play games because they get mental stimulation from it, which they have to go to innapropriate extremes for, where most of us would be happy with a sport or good conversation.

I never really thought that anybody was out of another person's league as long as someone has good virtues and are working towards something, but considering he has all of these ideas of who is better than who, I see him innapropriately hitting on women online that have more status than him, such as news reporters and I noticed he doesn't date anyone who doesn't have a graduate degree, but he only has an undergraduate degree. It just seems hyporcritical of him, considering he dumped me for not having enough. It's weird, it even seems like his mother is in on him getting set up with these people online he doesn't know and that maybe she taught him to act like this. He has some weird family issues. If you met him in person at first he is attractive, but soon after you see all of these weird things come out.

Oh, and after I saw him saying these things about me, I started to retaliate. It pissed me off. And next thing you know, we have been in this two year long social media childish battle. It is finally dying down. I am sort of upset with myself for playing the game. I should have ignored him, but I guess I didn't exactly see the outcome in the end, he makes a fool out of me, and I played into it.

But considering all of these things, it reminds me that I shouldn't take his opinion in account.

 

[violet_crown]

First, before you read this, I didn't keep in touch with him after he gave his excuses for why it wouldn't go anywhere and when we were together, I didn't believe he was talking to anybody else.

He doesn't respect anybody. Plus he never said my name or very many details in these accounts, he keeps what he vents about as general as possible. And at first it seemed like he assumed I wasn't aware of these accounts, but still I think anybody else would have considered the possibility. Plus all of these girls who were his monthly commitments because they were better than me, he was still talking about his agony over missing me, and complaining about things that he didn't like about them. I guess he is lucky they never checked those accounts. I am suprised. Sometimes I wondered if some of his comments were really kind of passive ways to manipulate and be in control. I noticed if he got upset with me over his innapropriate demands, he would get up and go make a text and in retrospect I think he would text a girl, as a way to disrespect me and keep himself in control. I don't even think he enjoyed much time with these girls. When I wouldn't sleep with him, he went and made a text. I have read about sociopaths, that unlike other disorders, it includes brain damage, and they play games because they get mental stimulation from it, which they have to go to innapropriate extremes for, where most of us would be happy with a sport or good conversation.

I never really thought that anybody was out of another person's league as long as someone has good virtues and are working towards something, but considering he has all of these ideas of who is better than who, I see him innapropriately hitting on women online that have more status than him, such as news reporters and I noticed he doesn't date anyone who doesn't have a graduate degree, but he only has an undergraduate degree. It just seems hyporcritical of him, considering he dumped me for not having enough. It's weird, it even seems like his mother is in on him getting set up with these people online he doesn't know and that maybe she taught him to act like this. He has some weird family issues. If you met him in person at first he is attractive, but soon after you see all of these weird things come out.

Oh, and after I saw him saying these things about me, I started to retaliate. It pissed me off. And next thing you know, we have been in this two year long social media childish battle. It is finally dying down. I am sort of upset with myself for playing the game. I should have ignored him, but I guess I didn't exactly see the outcome in the end, he makes a fool out of me, and I played into it.

But considering all of these things, it reminds me that I shouldn't take his opinion in account.

Look, there's obviously some miscommunication between you and myself. I've been fairly blunt, but at no point was it my intention to insinuate that you are a person without value. The point the other 8s and I have been making is that you're wasting your time with this guy if he is an 8. But frankly, you'd be wasting your time with him no matter what his type was because he sounds like a real prick.

That said, you having a couple of bad experiences doesn't mean that you can say that all 8s are as damaged as yours have been. Is it true that we're not the easiest people to get commitment from? Yes, without question. But a) once we're in we're all in, and b) if any type was likely to elicit that response from one of us it'd be an sx-first 4.

I appreciate that what you're seeking here is some form of closure, but that's only gonna come from you working out that you're worth more than the ill treatment you're getting from this asshole and simply shutting the door. You will not fix him. Work on picking up your own pieces, make this a cautionary tale that you hold onto for the rest of your dating career, and move on. There are plenty of men out there who would appreciate a nurturing, sensitive, younger woman like yourself. All you have to do is let go of this one and find them.

 

[Newbyagain]

Look, there's obviously some miscommunication between you and myself. I've been fairly blunt, but at no point was it my intention to insinuate that you are a person without value. The point the other 8s and I have been making is that you're wasting your time with this guy if he is an 8. But frankly, you'd be wasting your time with him no matter what his type was because he sounds like a real prick.

That said, you having a couple of bad experiences doesn't mean that you can say that all 8s are as damaged as yours have been. Is it true that we're not the easiest people to get commitment from? Yes, without question. But a) once we're in we're all in, and b) if any type was likely to elicit that response from one of us it'd be an sx-first 4.

I appreciate that what you're seeking here is some form of closure, but that's only gonna come from you working out that you're worth more than the ill treatment you're getting from this asshole and simply shutting the door. You will not fix him. Work on picking up your own pieces, make this a cautionary tale that you hold onto for the rest of your dating career, and move on. There are plenty of men out there who would appreciate a nurturing, sensitive, younger woman like yourself. All you have to do is let go of this one and find them.

Thank you. What do you mean an SX 4 would be likely to elicit that kind of response? I didn't elicit these things though. I definately made it worse later on... but for a while in the beginning I just withdrew and didn't go back and forth with him. It was months of him making subtle comments that he could do better and it wasn't until he started hitting on other girls in front of me online that I flew off the hook. He made it very hard for me to be understanding.

 

[violet_crown]

Thank you. What do you mean an SX 4 would be likely to elicit that kind of response? I didn't elicit these things though. I definately made it worse later on... but for a while in the beginning I just withdrew and didn't go back and forth with him. It was months of him making subtle comments that he could do better and it wasn't until he started hitting on other girls in front of me online that I flew off the hook. He made it very hard for me to be understanding.

To the bolded, I think you may have misunderstood me. The 8/4 relationship is famous (or infamous, depending on where you stand) for its intensity and passion. I got into a discussion with [MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION] about this subject in a different thread and so I'm going to be obnoxious and quote myself for efficency's sake:

The 8/4 dance is pretty infamous. I've mentioned elsewhere that Fours seem to be the type that pull me the most, but just like for the OP it never seems to work out. My experience has been that there's a very intense bond that forms, generally to the exclusion of everything else. Boundaries get stripped away early. It's not always healthy. The attraction is pretty straightforward for me: Fours inhabit their inner world as totally and confidently as we navigate the outer one. It doesn't sound like much, but the sense of completion that can be derived from that can feel utter.

The poor treatement that you got from this guy is in no way, shape, or form something you brought on yourself. No one deserves being treated badly. What I had been trying to say in the post that you quoted was that if anyone could get past an 8s defenses and find a way to their heart, it would be an sx-dom 4. I also don't want you to take that to mean that you should have been able to make him "love you more" or "treat you better" or whatever. My point is that there is something special about the way 8s and 4s relate, so if that's what you're seeking, then I don't have any doubts that you can find it elsewhere from the ass you're seeing now.

Your misread is somewhat telling in that it's clear that somewhere you feel culpable for the relationship being such a fiasco, which again is completely unfair to yourself. The only place where someone might fault you is for not getting out sooner. That's it. And even then, I understand where you're coming from. I don't take commitment lightly, and it can be hard for me to give up on someone that I love even when I know I deserve better.

 

[rav3n]

I don't think that is very thoughtful for you to say that. This is a very sensitive issue. Trust me, I am quick to jump the gun and think the worst of everything,

Apparently so. Rather than defend by painting a black picture of him, instead don't view my comment as any reflection on you. Someone not being into another, doesn't necessarily mean that there's any reflection of who you are or whether you're lovable. Consider yourself lovable and move on. He's a waste of your emotions and energy.

 

[Animal]

I know Eights in stable, loving relationships... but they usually settle down later in life and tend to be very choosy about their mates.

This ^ ^

I'm 32 years old. I've had more "viable suitors" than all of my male and female friends combined, and most of them "settled" and got married at least once by now. The first time I had a relationship that lasted more than a couple of months was in my late 20s. I draw a clear line in the sand, state my needs, and once I see that they won't be met, I leave and don't look back. Over the last few years, I'm beginning to outgrow the habit, learn to compromise, and be more vulnerable. It requires really looking into myself and staying focused on the task of self-improvement. Otherwise, I just slip back into selfishness.

 

[Newbyagain]

To the bolded, I think you may have misunderstood me. The 8/4 relationship is famous (or infamous, depending on where you stand) for its intensity and passion. I got into a discussion with [MENTION=10984]DJ Arendee[/MENTION] about this subject in a different thread and so I'm going to be obnoxious and quote myself for efficency's sake:



The poor treatement that you got from this guy is in no way, shape, or form something you brought on yourself. No one deserves being treated badly. What I had been trying to say in the post that you quoted was that if anyone could get past an 8s defenses and find a way to their heart, it would be an sx-dom 4. I also don't want you to take that to mean that you should have been able to make him "love you more" or "treat you better" or whatever. My point is that there is something special about the way 8s and 4s relate, so if that's what you're seeking, then I don't have any doubts that you can find it elsewhere from the ass you're seeing now.

Your misread is somewhat telling in that it's clear that somewhere you feel culpable for the relationship being such a fiasco, which again is completely unfair to yourself. The only place where someone might fault you is for not getting out sooner. That's it. And even then, I understand where you're coming from. I don't take commitment lightly, and it can be hard for me to give up on someone that I love even when I know I deserve better.

@Wind-up-Rex

You are right. And thank you for the nice words, they were helpful.

 

[Entropic]

[MENTION=7254]Wind-Up Rex[/MENTION] please tell me what types are infamous relationships including the 5? XD

 

[violet_crown]

[MENTION=7254]Wind-Up Rex[/MENTION] please tell me what types are infamous relationships including the 5? XD

5s are all destined to die alone. That's a fact that is both well-known and established in the literature.

 

[Entropic]

5s are all destined to die alone. That's a fact that is both well-known and established in the literature.

 

[Animal]

5s are all destined to die alone. That's a fact that is both well-known and established in the literature.

That may be true - unless the 5 is lucky (or unlucky) enough to be chased really hard by a dedicated 8.

For reference: see the movie "Altered States."

 

[Entropic]

That may be true - unless the 5 is lucky (or unlucky) enough to be chased really hard by a dedicated 8.

For reference: see the movie "Altered States."

Oh amazing LSE-Te 8, I summon thee from the depths of the netherworld. Heed my love calls and end my romantic misery!

 

[Animal]

Oh amazing LSE-Te 8, I summon thee from the depths of the netherworld. Heed my love calls and end my romantic misery!

As a previously very unhealthy 8, I can tell you that an 8 loves a good chase. However, if that's the basis of the relationship, the unhealthy 8 may objectify the prey and move on once the desired acquisition has been obtained.

As a closer-to-healthy 8 now, I can tell you that I still love a good chase, but I like the enneagram-5 variety: I want loyalty and trust, in a partner, but the never-ending chase, with a 5, can come in the form of a mind that I can never quite understand; a vast array of thoughts and ideas that I can never keep up with. This is still a chase, but also provides grounds for a real relationship and lasting intimacy. Also, getting someone "into their body" who is normally not quite "in their body" gives me a thrill, especially because 5s have that 8 soul-child lust that is just DYING for a chance to come out, and once you unleash that inner animal, it's highly likely that the 5 will be wild in bed. But they're still a 5, so they'd still be secretive and less likely than some other archetypes to "sleep around." On top of that, "trust" between these two types is likely because both like to "say it how it is" and don't tend to "beat around the bush." Therefore, I vote healthy 5 as an excellent match for a healthy 8.