[Type 8] Can Enneagram 8's really have a deep, loving union with someone?

[Newbyagain]

I ask, because it seems like every Eight (who has that as their first dominant type) I have known seems to not see the relationship as a union or "one flesh", but continuously resorts back to putting their needs entirely first, even when it is absolutely counterproductive and defeats the point of a relationship. I don't mean to sound pessimistic, I am asking because that is the only type I have or ever will be involved with and they have always turned into a disaster from very early in the relationship. Even outside of the Eight's that I have dated I don't think I have really known any males of this type who didn't behave this way. There must be something healthier. I know of a lot of Italian Christian and Catholic leaders who are Eights who seem to have it together, but don't know them personally. Maybe this is a reason why the Pope became a Priest, because he knew he wasn't good at relationships

 

[Chiharu]

I know Eights in stable, loving relationships... but they usually settle down later in life and tend to be very choosy about their mates.

 

[Newbyagain]

I know Eights in stable, loving relationships... but they usually settle down later in life and tend to be very choosy about their mates.

So they are choosy about their mates? Well, thanks for letting me know that, because nothing I read online has said that, other than what I have read that a lot of them have struggled with womanizing, but maybe that is sort of the same thing. Do you think they are superficially choosy? You don't think that is an immature quality that maybe they later let go of and that is why they settle in the older years?

 

[miss fortune]

why shouldn't they be able to?

Not every relationship is the same... some relationships that you might write off as shallow on the surface are quite deep and loving... be careful about judging what you aren't a member of

 

[sulfit]

I ask, because it seems like every Eight (who has that as their first dominant type) I have known seems to not see the relationship as a union or "one flesh", but continuously resorts back to putting their needs entirely first, even when it is absolutely counterproductive and defeats the point of a relationship.

Considering that their enneagram partners are 2s who continuously put other people's needs before their own, it's a match. Other types have issues with 8s.

 

[rav3n]

You might want to consider the impacts of instinctual variants and wings for enneatype 8s.

 

[Elfboy]

I ask, because it seems like every Eight (who has that as their first dominant type) I have known seems to not see the relationship as a union or "one flesh", but continuously resorts back to putting their needs entirely first, even when it is absolutely counterproductive and defeats the point of a relationship. I don't mean to sound pessimistic, I am asking because that is the only type I have or ever will be involved with and they have always turned into a disaster from very early in the relationship. Even outside of the Eight's that I have dated I don't think I have really known any males of this type who didn't behave this way. There must be something healthier. I know of a lot of Italian Christian and Catholic leaders who are Eights who seem to have it together, but don't know them personally. Maybe this is a reason why the Pope became a Priest, because he knew he wasn't good at relationships

8s can form meaningful relationships when they get back in touch with their holy idea (innocence). if it were impossible for them to form loving relationships, their growth point would be 2.

 

[Azure Flame]

Yes! Its my dream to find my soul mate. It holds higher priority in my life than becoming an astronaut or getting rich and saving a small chunk of the world with my power.

I almost feel like I'm an exosuit, and my soul mate is the one inside. Or I'm a horse, and she's at the reigns. Although most of the time I need to be allowed to run free.

There are times when I think I've found her. I'd constantly offer her help. She'd constantly deny it and reassure me she'd be ok on her own. We were are our own islands, but sometimes we share one another's space.

I've never truly loved a woman before until recently. I'm convinced I can only date E4's and E2's. They're so fucking passionate, there is a deep yearning for more of that in my life. Sometimes I fear I'll never find that again. E4's are so awesome, but in my experience they've never been able to actually get into a relationship with me. Their highs are too high, their lows are too low. Too volatile and unstable. I suppose 2's can be the same way once you get to know them? There's just something incredible when a woman comes over to your apartment, the two of you have a drink together and just talk about rainforests and the sound of rain, and then you give one another a warm hug and a kiss and part ways, and that be the new best day of your life.

My original goal was to not date anyone until I'm 30. I've always felt that was the age where women finally know who they are and have their shit together. Maybe I'll meet a woman who can detatch herself from her emotions and stick around.

 

[Newbyagain]

Yes! Its my dream to find my soul mate. It holds higher priority in my life than becoming an astronaut or getting rich and saving a small chunk of the world with my power.

I almost feel like I'm an exosuit, and my soul mate is the one inside. Or I'm a horse, and she's at the reigns. Although most of the time I need to be allowed to run free.

There are times when I think I've found her. I'd constantly offer her help. She'd constantly deny it and reassure me she'd be ok on her own. We were are our own islands, but sometimes we share one another's space.

I've never truly loved a woman before until recently. I'm convinced I can only date E4's and E2's. They're so fucking passionate, there is a deep yearning for more of that in my life. Sometimes I fear I'll never find that again. E4's are so awesome, but in my experience they've never been able to actually get into a relationship with me. Their highs are too high, their lows are too low. Too volatile and unstable. I suppose 2's can be the same way once you get to know them? There's just something incredible when a woman comes over to your apartment, the two of you have a drink together and just talk about rainforests and the sound of rain, and then you give one another a warm hug and a kiss and part ways, and that be the new best day of your life.

My original goal was to not date anyone until I'm 30. I've always felt that was the age where women finally know who they are and have their shit together. Maybe I'll meet a woman who can detatch herself from her emotions and stick around.

DJ Arendee, this reminds me so much of the connection I feel with Eights! especially an ESTP Eight. I feel like I am in a heavenly trans when we talk. It is something out of this world and I am afraid I wont find it again too. I don't think you would have a problem with a mature Four. As I have matured, I still urge my way along with my moods, but I don't take it to extremes, except under something like a serious life-changing crisis, but then I have learned to allow myself to be sad and work through it. I have seen that a lot of immature (yet old enough to know better) Fours in such situations go the opposite extreme, partying and stuff and I think that just causes them to do an even more drastic bipolar thing, making the depression worse, which anybody probably could find theirself doing under stress actually.

 

[ceecee]

I know Eights in stable, loving relationships... but they usually settle down later in life and tend to be very choosy about their mates.

I agree with this.

 

[Chiharu]

So they are choosy about their mates? Well, thanks for letting me know that, because nothing I read online has said that, other than what I have read that a lot of them have struggled with womanizing, but maybe that is sort of the same thing. Do you think they are superficially choosy? You don't think that is an immature quality that maybe they later let go of and that is why they settle in the older years?

Sorry, I should elaborate. When I said "mates" I meant the final mate that the 8s in my acquaintance settled down with later in life. They had plenty of relationships before that, and were far less discerning in their choice of partners for short term affairs.

I meant more that it takes someone special to get an 8 to leave the single life, but they make wonderful mates when they do decide to stay with someone.

 

[Elfboy]

8s can form meaningful relationships when they get back in touch with their holy idea (innocence). if it were impossible for them to form loving relationships, their growth point would be 2.

that said, the fact that they integrate to 2 is indicative that relationships and vulnerable affection are areas that the 8 naturally struggles with more than most types. if you are dealing with an unhealthy 8, you can kiss your chances at a close, healthy relationship goodbye cuz it ain't happening.

 

[skylights]

Just theorizing, but it seems to me that 8s definitely do have that element of putting themself first, and it does generally seem to run contrary to ability to sustain a relationship. At the same time, 1 is inflexible and critical; 2 is codependent and manipulative; 3 is competitive and image-obsessed; 4 is self-absorbed and feels victimized; 5 is detached and secretive; 6 is volatile and paranoid; 7 is escapist and novelty-obsessed; 9 is numb and complacent.

None of us seem particularly well-suited to relationships in that light!

It seems to me that self-prioritization is a primary defense mechanism for everyone (in different ways, of course), but in every case it's a reaction to perceived threat, rather than a neutral existing characteristic. In other words, your 8 sitting happily in a sunny flower field with no dangers isn't going to be shut out to forming and maintaining a happy relationship - the strong ego assertion is a protective move. The challenge for any partner is that they will sometimes either have to wait the threat out, or will need to figure out how to help the person move past the place of threat so that they can open up again.

The other thing that I have experienced happening, in particular with Self-Preservation types, is that their protective shell will expand to include you, and the protective shut down will account for you, too.

Here's the Baron and Wagele advice for better interaction with 8s:

• Stand up for yourself... and me.
• Be confident, strong, and direct.
• Don't gossip about me or betray my trust.
• Be vulnerable and share your feelings. See and acknowledge my tender, vulnerable side.
• Give me space to be alone.
• Acknowledge the contributions I make, but don't flatter me.
• I often speak in an assertive way. Don't automatically assume it's a personal attack.
• When I scream, curse, and stomp around, try to remember that's just the way I am.

I have an e8 manager at work who is in a very happy relationship and the couple just celebrated their firstborn son's 1st birthday; it's definitely not out of the question. He is very me-first but after a couple years of working with him I've learned that as long as he sees that you're working with him and you're competent, he loosens up a lot. It's when he feels like things aren't under his control that he really shuts everyone out and becomes totally me-focused... it's a prioritization where safety from being harmed must come first. I actually think that he'd be fairly easy to get along with in a relationship, because he's a good-natured guy with pretty simple desires, and he does genuinely care. With him it's a matter of knowing when he's going to shut you out and why, and understanding that it's usually not about you at all. I feel like that's ultimately true for all the types.

 

[Azure Flame]

Just theorizing, but IMO, both 8s and 3s tend to have that element of putting themself first, and it does generally seem to run contrary to ability to sustain a relationship.



It seems to me that self-prioritization is a primary defense mechanism for both the 3 and 8 (in different ways, of course), but in every case it's a reaction to perceived threat, rather than a neutral existing characteristic. In other words, your 3 or 8 sitting happily in a sunny flower field with no dangers isn't going to be shut out to forming and maintaining a happy relationship - the strong ego assertion is a protective move. The challenge for the partner of the 3 or the 8 is that they will sometimes either have to wait the threat out, or will need to figure out how to help the person move past the place of threat so that they can open up again.

The other thing that I have experienced happening, in particular with Self-Preservation types, is that their protective shell will expand to include you, and the protective shut down will account for you, too.

Idunno wtf you just said or why it was worth quoting me.

 

[skylights]

Idunno wtf you just said or why it was worth quoting me.

And I'm not really sure why you're quoting me to tell me this.

I must have been editing my post while you quoted me, but in any case, I thought your description was a useful reflection of the "shell" exterior that 3s and 8s tend to form to protect themselves. If I misused it, apologies. It's not relevant in my edited post anymore anyway.

 

[kyuuei]

I ask, because it seems like every Eight (who has that as their first dominant type) I have known seems to not see the relationship as a union or "one flesh", but continuously resorts back to putting their needs entirely first, even when it is absolutely counterproductive and defeats the point of a relationship. I don't mean to sound pessimistic, I am asking because that is the only type I have or ever will be involved with and they have always turned into a disaster from very early in the relationship. Even outside of the Eight's that I have dated I don't think I have really known any males of this type who didn't behave this way. There must be something healthier. I know of a lot of Italian Christian and Catholic leaders who are Eights who seem to have it together, but don't know them personally. Maybe this is a reason why the Pope became a Priest, because he knew he wasn't good at relationships

Eights seem to find (and I definitely am included) that the 'partner in crime' situation is best. It is best to find other ways to 'rely' on the person.. versus becoming entirely one person. It is all viewpoints and perspectives.

I am capable of caring very deeply for people, and I go to great lengths for those I care about. But I do not find myself 'becoming one' with the partner the way most people seem to want. I do not necessarily find this healthy. My sister is very much like her husband now even though she had very few traits in common with him when they started dating. To me, this sort of thing causes a lot of conflict.. since her husband's actions and persona do not reflect that of a healthy family lifestyle. It has caused a lot of tension between her family now since she must be loyal to the family she has created. While we understand, it doesn't make things easier.

I don't think having a healthy, loving relationship should be defined on how much I like what the other person likes. I once cared about these things, and I found more often than not that they were shallow and shit relationships. I care about very few things.. I don't care if my SO is a nerd, or if they've ever played final fantasy, or if they think Blink 182 is one of the best bands of their generation.. But I DO care that they are supportive of what I want to do in my life, if they are patient and loyal, and that I know I make them happy. In return, I will communicate my happiness with them, work on myself, and support their adventures 100% even if those adventures mean some time away from them here and there.

The thing is, finding another person that thinks that way... is rare. I'm a female.. most men do not want me to continue the way I currently act and behave when I get into a relationship with them. They start disliking how many male friends I have.. how loyal and dedicated I am to them. They start to want all of my attention focused on them. While this will naturally happen with time, and I will learn the quirks of the relationship to keep it steady and calm, I need to change at my own pace. Not at the pace of the relationship itself. That means I could decide "you know, I think I will start trying this since he likes it so much" when we're dating.. or years after we are married. If I change outside of that pace, I get resentful quickly and shut down and mentally doom the relationship to failure from then on out.

It does seem a bit selfish to put myself first when relationships are about compromise. It isn't to say no compromise happens ever.. but if I preserve myself and feel safe and secure, I can flourish in a relationship and provide more. Making me feel insecure and out of control is the quickest way to turn me into a shit girlfriend. It reminds me somehow of that whole "Its not what you say but how you say it" mentality. Yeah, I put myself first.. but if you just realize that and work with it, it's really not as selfish and self-centered as it seems. A kind word, and a different kind of nudge can turn the same situation into a totally different answer.

I do tend to get a bit calculated over things, I get defensive very quickly (though I chalk a lot of that up to guarding myself from past experiences), and I anger easily. But I've been in a loving and long-lasting relationship, and I'd like to think I am still capable of it now.

 

[Azure Flame]

And I'm not really sure why you're quoting me to tell me this.

I must have been editing my post while you quoted me, but in any case, I thought your description was a useful reflection of the "shell" exterior that 3s and 8s tend to form to protect themselves. If I misused it, apologies. It's not relevant in my edited post anymore anyway.

hahaha... ok fair nuff. If you're just thinking out loud then I'll add, I have a shell. Its up for some people and its down for others. I usually let it down for teachers, mentors, friends and loved ones. At this point they can usually tell me anything they want and it will sink in quite deep.

There have been those who I've openned up to, who decided to screw with me and put false information into my head. It really messes me up and stirrs up my thoughts into confusion. When the person does this I immediately kick them out. Some are really good at charming their way back in. Only recently have I started to learn and recognize this trend with some manipulators. pain in the ass, it is.

 

[Azure Flame]

Eights seem to find (and I definitely am included) that the 'partner in crime' situation is best. It is best to find other ways to 'rely' on the person.. versus becoming entirely one person. It is all viewpoints and perspectives.

I am capable of caring very deeply for people, and I go to great lengths for those I care about. But I do not find myself 'becoming one' with the partner the way most people seem to want. I do not necessarily find this healthy. My sister is very much like her husband now even though she had very few traits in common with him when they started dating. To me, this sort of thing causes a lot of conflict.. since her husband's actions and persona do not reflect that of a healthy family lifestyle. It has caused a lot of tension between her family now since she must be loyal to the family she has created. While we understand, it doesn't make things easier.

I don't think having a healthy, loving relationship should be defined on how much I like what the other person likes. I once cared about these things, and I found more often than not that they were shallow and shit relationships. I care about very few things.. I don't care if my SO is a nerd, or if they've ever played final fantasy, or if they think Blink 182 is one of the best bands of their generation.. But I DO care that they are supportive of what I want to do in my life, if they are patient and loyal, and that I know I make them happy. In return, I will communicate my happiness with them, work on myself, and support their adventures 100% even if those adventures mean some time away from them here and there.

The thing is, finding another person that thinks that way... is rare. I'm a female.. most men do not want me to continue the way I currently act and behave when I get into a relationship with them. They start disliking how many male friends I have.. how loyal and dedicated I am to them. They start to want all of my attention focused on them. While this will naturally happen with time, and I will learn the quirks of the relationship to keep it steady and calm, I need to change at my own pace. Not at the pace of the relationship itself. That means I could decide "you know, I think I will start trying this since he likes it so much" when we're dating.. or years after we are married. If I change outside of that pace, I get resentful quickly and shut down and mentally doom the relationship to failure from then on out.

It does seem a bit selfish to put myself first when relationships are about compromise. It isn't to say no compromise happens ever.. but if I preserve myself and feel safe and secure, I can flourish in a relationship and provide more. Making me feel insecure and out of control is the quickest way to turn me into a shit girlfriend. It reminds me somehow of that whole "Its not what you say but how you say it" mentality. Yeah, I put myself first.. but if you just realize that and work with it, it's really not as selfish and self-centered as it seems. A kind word, and a different kind of nudge can turn the same situation into a totally different answer.

I do tend to get a bit calculated over things, I get defensive very quickly (though I chalk a lot of that up to guarding myself from past experiences), and I anger easily. But I've been in a loving and long-lasting relationship, and I'd like to think I am still capable of it now.

Yes!

I used to be so damn selective and say, "my perfect partner will ride motorcycles, have a black belt, do gymnastics, be beautiful, be able to fly and shoot lasers."

Now its really down to, "Will you be willing to put forth the effort to join me in my activities while I join you in yours?"

It doesn't even have to be all the time. If the girl joins me every once in a while and shows me she's making effort to give a damn, I'll tackle her with affection.

 

[Newbyagain]

Eights seem to find (and I definitely am included) that the 'partner in crime' situation is best. It is best to find other ways to 'rely' on the person.. versus becoming entirely one person. It is all viewpoints and perspectives.

I am capable of caring very deeply for people, and I go to great lengths for those I care about. But I do not find myself 'becoming one' with the partner the way most people seem to want. I do not necessarily find this healthy. My sister is very much like her husband now even though she had very few traits in common with him when they started dating. To me, this sort of thing causes a lot of conflict.. since her husband's actions and persona do not reflect that of a healthy family lifestyle. It has caused a lot of tension between her family now since she must be loyal to the family she has created. While we understand, it doesn't make things easier.

I don't think having a healthy, loving relationship should be defined on how much I like what the other person likes. I once cared about these things, and I found more often than not that they were shallow and shit relationships. I care about very few things.. I don't care if my SO is a nerd, or if they've ever played final fantasy, or if they think Blink 182 is one of the best bands of their generation.. But I DO care that they are supportive of what I want to do in my life, if they are patient and loyal, and that I know I make them happy. In return, I will communicate my happiness with them, work on myself, and support their adventures 100% even if those adventures mean some time away from them here and there.

The thing is, finding another person that thinks that way... is rare. I'm a female.. most men do not want me to continue the way I currently act and behave when I get into a relationship with them. They start disliking how many male friends I have.. how loyal and dedicated I am to them. They start to want all of my attention focused on them. While this will naturally happen with time, and I will learn the quirks of the relationship to keep it steady and calm, I need to change at my own pace. Not at the pace of the relationship itself. That means I could decide "you know, I think I will start trying this since he likes it so much" when we're dating.. or years after we are married. If I change outside of that pace, I get resentful quickly and shut down and mentally doom the relationship to failure from then on out.

It does seem a bit selfish to put myself first when relationships are about compromise. It isn't to say no compromise happens ever.. but if I preserve myself and feel safe and secure, I can flourish in a relationship and provide more. Making me feel insecure and out of control is the quickest way to turn me into a shit girlfriend. It reminds me somehow of that whole "Its not what you say but how you say it" mentality. Yeah, I put myself first.. but if you just realize that and work with it, it's really not as selfish and self-centered as it seems. A kind word, and a different kind of nudge can turn the same situation into a totally different answer.

I do tend to get a bit calculated over things, I get defensive very quickly (though I chalk a lot of that up to guarding myself from past experiences), and I anger easily. But I've been in a loving and long-lasting relationship, and I'd like to think I am still capable of it now.

Yes!

I used to be so damn selective and say, "my perfect partner will ride motorcycles, have a black belt, do gymnastics, be beautiful, be able to fly and shoot lasers."

Now its really down to, "Will you be willing to put forth the effort to join me in my activities while I join you in yours?"

It doesn't even have to be all the time. If the girl joins me every once in a while and shows me she's making effort to give a damn, I'll tackle her with affection.

Yes to both of you! That is the perfect answer to make me feel better. That is how I view maturity too, but I try not to jump to conclusions about people since we are all so different. I used to think I wanted someone who liked all of the things I like, but now I want someone who compliments me or helps me grow in my weak areas. Actually I probably want someone who probably isn't into all of the things I am into, because I already have that down. I want us to be polarized where we meet in the middle, but the oneness is important, although I can see people having a misconception about that. I don't think people can't just make oneness happen; it is sort of something that happens with all of the right ingredients. And I wonder if I am in you guy's boat some, that maybe I am either a little or a lot Eight. I think my INFJishness tones it down if so...

 

[violet_crown]

I ask, because it seems like every Eight (who has that as their first dominant type) I have known seems to not see the relationship as a union or "one flesh", but continuously resorts back to putting their needs entirely first, even when it is absolutely counterproductive and defeats the point of a relationship. I don't mean to sound pessimistic, I am asking because that is the only type I have or ever will be involved with and they have always turned into a disaster from very early in the relationship. Even outside of the Eight's that I have dated I don't think I have really known any males of this type who didn't behave this way. There must be something healthier. I know of a lot of Italian Christian and Catholic leaders who are Eights who seem to have it together, but don't know them personally. Maybe this is a reason why the Pope became a Priest, because he knew he wasn't good at relationships

Are we capable of deep, loving unions? Naturally. You can't forget that we're 2s underneath everything else, and most of us want nothing more than someone worthy of us to lavish all that love and affection upon. I've been accused of being selfish in a relationship, but never by someone who I was truly in love with. With them I have a tendancy to be giving to a fault. If it was just a matter of being inclined to have companionship and a warm body in my bed, then the fact of the matter is that it's unlikely for me to see the person as much more. I don't get too attached or invested unless it's what's in my heart to do so. We can enjoy each other's company, but it's more like a mutually beneficial business arrangement than a pledge of undying affection.

My point is that if you've never felt that your 8s wouldn't think twice about taking a bullet for you, then they probably weren't that into you. Either that or they were pushed for more than they were ready to give and it ended up blowing up in your face.