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  1. #21
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    A lot of what you just said resonated too

    I think the "loyalty" thing is paradoxical because you wouldn't think that difficulties with trust would lead to loyalty. I also saw it said somewhere that 6s tend to be very loyal but are occasionally capable of "incredible acts of disloyalty". I suppose any human being is capable of that but I kind of knew what they meant. I certainly relate though to what you said about hoping that people will fulfill their potential (if that's what you meant), partly because of your belief, faith and trust in them. But also feeling that it's a bit unlikely that they will. Both at the same time.

    In my case, I'm extremely loyal to friends/loved ones almost to the point of being a bit obsessive about them, sometimes. But if someone betrays my trust in what I feel is a manner really dangerous to myself, I am capable of dropping them almost coldly, completely cutting them out of my life. (This happens very very rarely, but it has happened.) And then I wonder if that's disloyal, too...
    That quote about the disloyalty is from the mooshine website...I can pull it up later...but that description is by far the best one I've ever read.

    And It was what I meant about people fulfilling thier potential. <--- I think this is Ni as well...at least for me. And Ni is great at worst case scenario. Which is bad for a 6 lol cause it feeds the loop.

    And I know about the dropping people thing too. I don't do it often, but I actually did just do it the other day. The thing about me is that I let the other person betray me, time after time. And that is how i know "I'm" not the one being disloyal. But this line of where loyalty is, is like I said, subjective. It's different for everyone. I am still having a hard time figuring out the line....when it's been crossed or not.
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  2. #22
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    That quote about the disloyalty is from the mooshine website...I can pull it up later...but that description is by far the best one I've ever read.

    And It was what I meant about people fulfilling thier potential. <--- I think this is Ni as well...at least for me. And Ni is great at worst case scenario. Which is bad for a 6 lol cause it feeds the loop.

    And I know about the dropping people thing too. I don't do it often, but I actually did just do it the other day. The thing about me is that I let the other person betray me, time after time. And that is how i know "I'm" not the one being disloyal. But this line of where loyalty is, is like I said, subjective. It's different for everyone. I am still having a hard time figuring out the line....when it's been crossed or not.
    Yep, relate again.

    Just to add to that, someone suggested to me that in my case as INFJ type 6, this trust thing could partly relate to a sort of Ni/Fe conflict. Ni can help you to see people's potential (and sometimes to overrate it) but it can also give you those strong gut feelings about someone not being trustworthy. So that's somewhat conflict/contradictory in itself. But then, I think Fe partly leads me to treat people as though I trust them although I am not always sure I actually should.
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  3. #23
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I've pretty much concluded that the man falls into the 6 category by now after watching him and asking him questions, so I guess I'll weigh in from the other side for a moment

    he already had abandonment issues from childhood (NOT a good one! his mom was an addict and he's an orphan now) AND had just gotten out of a very bad 3 year relationship... I, of course, took this as a challenge to be won

    not that I don't have a lot of issues trusting or opening up to ANYBODY generally (family included) but that's for entirely different reasons...

    I've been patient with him and have given him no reason to be suspicious... I've always built him up, I tend to take his side unless he's arguing with me AND I can always account for where I've been. This still doesn't mean that he doesn't end up getting completely paranoid a few times a year and questioning me as to what I've been up to, but I can always back myself up if necessary (I have a program on my phone that tells where I've been and who I've contacted for goodness sake... the ultimate argument winning tool in that case!)... he always feels really embarrassed about it afterwords and apologizes though I've learned to control my temper in those cases so that things don't get ugly... we've both learned quite a bit over the years...

    basically, I can say, that neither of us is an easy person to date... we've both learned from each other over the 4 years we've been together though... we've learned to trust each other through experience of being given no reason NOT to trust the other person for this long... I've learned to let him fight his own battles to some extent instead of stepping in myself AND I've learned that sometimes I need to bite my tongue and drop things... he's learned that if I go away and spend time with other men I CAN be trusted not to do anything that I shouldn't be up to, and he's learned to stick up for himself in more situations...

    mostly, I can say that the 6 I know has learned to trust by being given no reason NOT to trust for several years... and it TOOK several years

    some of y'all aren't easy to date!
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  4. #24
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Yep, relate again.

    Just to add to that, someone suggested to me that in my case as INFJ type 6, this trust thing could partly relate to a sort of Ni/Fe conflict. Ni can help you to see people's potential (and sometimes to overrate it) but it can also give you those strong gut feelings about someone not being trustworthy. So that's somewhat conflict/contradictory in itself. But then, I think Fe partly leads me to treat people as though I trust them although I am not always sure I actually should.
    Yea I have just been realizing lately that what I'm using is Ni...I never knew that before. And I see my ISFJ friend's come out sometimes and gives him serious anxiety. Because it's like the inferior of the inferior lol. Then I started to realize how I was using it in similar and different ways to him. But it can lead to "panic mode thinking" I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post



    some of y'all aren't easy to date!
    Hmm...I guess it could be harder for someone that was a 6 with an extremely bad past. Cause that would make them more extreme. :/

    With me though, I am glad the first guy I dated was a very loyal INFJ, in the way that he would never cheat on me. This led to me being way more trusting than I am now. (After having 2 other relationships where they both cheated on me, this was after the INFJ)

    It's like I don't suspect it if I don't see the pattern...like Ni will cling HARD to patterns in the way my SO talks, smiles, pays attention to another girl, once I've suspected there alterior intentions. I could imagine this making some six's that have a bad past, make them feel like they have no groud underneath them. So they would never trust where they're stepping. Cause that's what it feels like when I suspect someone of cheating. It's an unbreakable cycle. Only until the person can convince Ni that by doing such and such action OVER TIME proves that they don't want to cheat on me, then the cycle will be broken.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  5. #25
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Hmm...I guess it could be harder for someone that was a 6 with an extremely bad past. Cause that would make them more extreme. :/

    With me though, I am glad the first guy I dated was a very loyal INFJ, in the way that he would never cheat on me. This led to me being way more trusting than I am now. (After having 2 other relationships where they both cheated on me, this was after the INFJ)

    It's like I don't suspect it if I don't see the pattern...like Ni will cling HARD to patterns in the way my SO talks, smiles, pays attention to another girl, once I've suspected there alterior intentions. I could imagine this making some six's that have a bad past, make them feel like they have no groud underneath them. So they would never trust where they're stepping. Cause that's what it feels like when I suspect someone of cheating. It's an unbreakable cycle. Only until the person can convince Ni that by doing such and such action OVER TIME proves that they don't want to cheat on me, then the cycle will be broken.
    and you just pointed out why it can take some work for someone who's the really independent type who doesn't necessarily feel the need to account for where they've been because they really WEREN'T up to no good!

    of course, if you are doing things right, just about any relationship takes some work... that's the fun of things!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #26
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I can't decide if I trust everyone or no-one or everyone to various degrees. I don't know if I really understand at a concrete level what trust means. Does anyone want to describe what it means for them?
    I think to me trust means whether or not I can expect someone to act in a way that will not intentionally hurt me.

    My boyfriend still accuses me from time to time of not trusting him to not be "against" me, and he's right. It's very, very hard for me to abandon my natural position of assuming that I have to protect myself from everyone - including him, when we argue. It's very subconscious and very ingrained.

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I think I have seen some six like this on the forums...

    Ugh. That is rough. Glad you are doing better now.

    I meant how it's good for the nine.
    Marm will always be the posterchild for me - though I'm sure I exhibit it sometimes too! And thank you

    Sorry I didn't describe that well... It's hard for me to explain this without going into both sides of the effects, or without talking a lot about myself. I think our relationship satisfies his desire for bonding and belonging (6 is naturally inclusive and accommodating), his desire to recreate his happy childhood and parental archetypes (6 shares the recreating happiness desire and is naturally more submissive), and his desire to live as an aware and progressive but dutiful and responsible citizen (6 is cooperative and dutiful but an advocate of justice and positive change). 6 being hyperanalytical keeps 9 abreast of potential problems without 9 having to exert the mental energy on something unpleasant. 6 looking to 9 for the lead means that 9 gets keep things as low-key as they need. Most of all, 6 benefiting from 9's peacefulness and optimism means that 6 becomes a better and better person around 9, and 6's increasing positivity will inherently have a positive impact on 9's environment, but will moreover be reflected directly back at 9.

    I think this is what I was trying to get at -that 6 and 9 can create a positive feedback loop, where 6 is looking to 9's lead and 9 is trying to be mellow and optimistic, and 6 tries to be mellow and optimistic too in the wake of 9, so that makes a more mellow and optimistic atmosphere for 9, which makes 9 happy and comforts 6, so 9 continues to do what 9 is doing and 6 continues to look to 9 for guidance. Because 9 is exactly what 6 needs to grow, and 6's natural tendency is to look outward for guidance, 9 feeds 6 exactly what 6 needs, and as a result 6 moves to 9, which keeps 9 happy, and 6 remains without the pitfalls of being a 9, which can help support the 9 in avoiding those pitfalls. 9 in turn has a peaceful but more outwardly-energized atmosphere, encouraging and facilitating 9 in growing towards 3, as well as a happy 6 actively trying to make them happy, too.

    I think this is why any relationship that lies on the growth/stress paths has a higher likelihood of working out. If one partner is given exactly what they need, then the other partner will benefit twofold, both environmentally and directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever
    mostly, I can say that the 6 I know has learned to trust by being given no reason NOT to trust for several years... and it TOOK several years
    If it's any consolation, the suspicion means that he REALLY likes you

    He wouldn't care so much if not!

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad
    I certainly relate though to what you said about hoping that people will fulfill their potential (if that's what you meant), partly because of your belief, faith and trust in them. But also feeling that it's a bit unlikely that they will. Both at the same time.
    I feel this too. There's a girl at my work who is the epitome of this. She's young, on her own, dropped out of school, poorly parented, not from an affluent family, has a tenuous romantic relationship, and has a toddler. She's outwardly flighty and superficial, but I really liked her when I met her, and I saw a capacity for being a good coworker in her for whatever reason I can't really explain. I took a chance on her and gave her a good word with the higher-ups, and she's become a pretty good consistent full-time employee - definitely far better than almost everyone had expected of her. They used to talk shit about her in her old department, and it makes me gloat a little to hear her tell them she's doing great now. I'm proud of her for growing like that with just a little positive support and solid behavioral modification, and proud of me for being willing to put myself out there for her. She's still kind of flighty, defiant, and forgetful, though, and I still wonder when she's going to get fired, because I really won't be surprised if it happens eventually. I see in her the ability to rise beyond her past and her environment but I wonder if it will ever happen. I think it can, with consistent positive exterior influence. I just hope she doesn't run it off.

  7. #27
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    If it's any consolation, the suspicion means that he REALLY likes you

    He wouldn't care so much if not!
    that's actually something that never occurred to me before! I've always wondered "why am I so arousing of suspicion?"

    he recently actually told me that he's quite ok with me sexually harassing strangers (to take some of the burden off of him) because he trusts me not to go any farther than words... I was shocked
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #28
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    that's actually something that never occurred to me before! I've always wondered "why am I so arousing of suspicion?"

    he recently actually told me that he's quite ok with me sexually harassing strangers (to take some of the burden off of him) because he trusts me not to go any farther than words... I was shocked
    This is true, I would not be suspicious of anyone I didn't care about. It means they care about you on a deeper level as well. But them saying that about you and strangers, means that they're open and flexible...and again still trying to convey that they care about you. They want you to confirm that they don't need to be suspicious of you ...but once you have that trust...it's almost like it takes a lot to break it. I feel like it's one of those ambiguous cycles that never ends for a 6.


    @skylights may I ask what you think caused it to be "very, very hard for you to abandon your natural position of assuming that you have to protect yourself from everyone - including him, when you argue." Like, was it something that happened in your childhood? Did you have an kind of family matters that was the cause of this? Or do you just think it's who you are?

    I'm asking because I don't know much about enneagram. But the more I look into it the more I see myself as a 6. And I want to know if one can "get over this" <---this not trusting and such..would one be a different # in the enneagram, if they did get over that?

    Also are most phobic 6's dependent in a relationship? Or is it mixed? Because this is the only thing I find myself to be different with. I obviously would like to have an equal relationship with my partner (ideally) but I always find that one or the other person has more "control" , usually the one that cares less. And I'm also a little confused cause I love to be independent. It's the most empowering thing ever. So does that relate to being a 6?
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  9. #29
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    @skylights may I ask what you think caused it to be "very, very hard for you to abandon your natural position of assuming that you have to protect yourself from everyone - including him, when you argue." Like, was it something that happened in your childhood? Did you have an kind of family matters that was the cause of this? Or do you just think it's who you are?
    I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. Like I'd mentioned, I was born with a severe illness that made me always be on the defense against any kind of germs, so in that respect I grew up with a fear orientation to the world, with my doctors and parents (authority figures) as my allies. In a way, that is a very 6 environment - a "battlefield", so to speak. There's a theory that pairs active (assertive), responsive (supportive), and neutral (withdrawn) parents with active, responsive, and neutral children to produce likely enneatypes, and a responsive child + responsive adult pair is supposed to produce a 6 - my mom and I are both definitely responsive, and she was my primary caretaker, so that's a point of interest, as well. I don't discount the possibility that it's simply genetic, either, though. I don't figure there's really any way to tell.

    I'm asking because I don't know much about enneagram. But the more I look into it the more I see myself as a 6. And I want to know if one can "get over this" <---this not trusting and such..would one be a different # in the enneagram, if they did get over that?
    Well, perhaps. But I suspect that overcoming one's most deeply ingrained defense mechanism is so rare as to be essentially impossible, at least not without major trauma and a complete personality overhaul. The growth/integration and stress/disintegration paths describe what happens when you do begin "getting over it", how we naturally tend to gravitate towards a new perspective based on the previous defense mechanism. When a 6 begins learning to trust their inner selves, they naturally develop the "antidote" to their vice of fear, which is faith, the gift of the 9. So a 6 who self-actualizes to the furthest extent becomes a sort of 6-9, with the perception of the 6 and the healing power of the 9.

    Quote Originally Posted by enneagraminstitute
    Type Six—More Depth by Level
    Healthy Levels
    Level 1 (At Their Best): Become self-affirming, trusting of self and others, independent yet symbiotically interdependent and cooperative as an equal. Belief in self leads to true courage, positive thinking, leadership, and rich self-expression.
    The same is true for all the other types. When 9 begins learning to face the world, they naturally develop the antidote to their vice of denial, which is self-assertion, the gift of the 3. They become a sort of 9-3, with the transcendence of the 9 and the initiative of the 3. Then finally the 3 who begins learning to feel their own deepest desires naturally develops the antidote to their vice of deceit, which is equality, the gift of the 6. They become a sort of 3-6 with the polish of the 3 and the humility of the 6.

    Also are most phobic 6's dependent in a relationship? Or is it mixed? Because this is the only thing I find myself to be different with. I obviously would like to have an equal relationship with my partner (ideally) but I always find that one or the other person has more "control" , usually the one that cares less.
    I would imagine that most phobic 6s tend to be submissive, but I wouldn't go so far as to say dependent. I don't know about most 6s, but I have felt that power imbalance in relationships before, but do not in my current relationship. I think we share equal control, though we may wield it differently.

    And I'm also a little confused cause I love to be independent. It's the most empowering thing ever. So does that relate to being a 6?
    It could? I'm not sure. I feel empowered when I do things independently, but I'm also an sx/so, and I feel best when I'm around people. I don't really like doing a lot on my own, but I relate that more to my instinct variant than my enneatype. My 6w5 INTP dad is very independent, though. He's some combination of sx and sp.

  10. #30
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. Like I'd mentioned, I was born with a severe illness that made me always be on the defense against any kind of germs, so in that respect I grew up with a fear orientation to the world, with my doctors and parents (authority figures) as my allies. In a way, that is a very 6 environment - a "battlefield", so to speak. There's a theory that pairs active (assertive), responsive (supportive), and neutral (withdrawn) parents with active, responsive, and neutral children to produce likely enneatypes, and a responsive child + responsive adult pair is supposed to produce a 6 - my mom and I are both definitely responsive, and she was my primary caretaker, so that's a point of interest, as well. I don't discount the possibility that it's simply genetic, either, though. I don't figure there's really any way to tell.
    I'm sorry, you did say this before silly me.

    But this "responsive" stuff you are talking about makes sense. I love it.

    Is it similar to this?
    An excerpt from 6's harmonic group description: They simultaneously trust and distrust others: to accept the support and affection of others is a deep desire for these types, but to do so feels like losing control of themselves and of their circumstances. They fear being betrayed and need feedback from people in order to “know where others stand” toward them.

    In the way that we need feedback? is that what the "responsive" means? Cause that is both me an my dad then. I love self discovery.

    I wanna bake you cookies now




    Well, perhaps. But I suspect that overcoming one's most deeply ingrained defense mechanism is so rare as to be essentially impossible, at least not without major trauma and a complete personality overhaul. The growth/integration and stress/disintegration paths describe what happens when you do begin "getting over it", how we naturally tend to gravitate towards a new perspective based on the previous defense mechanism. When a 6 begins learning to trust their inner selves, they naturally develop the "antidote" to their vice of fear, which is faith, the gift of the 9. So a 6 who self-actualizes to the furthest extent becomes a sort of 6-9, with the perception of the 6 and the healing power of the 9.



    The same is true for all the other types. When 9 begins learning to face the world, they naturally develop the antidote to their vice of denial, which is self-assertion, the gift of the 3. They become a sort of 9-3, with the transcendence of the 9 and the initiative of the 3. Then finally the 3 who begins learning to feel their own deepest desires naturally develops the antidote to their vice of deceit, which is equality, the gift of the 6. They become a sort of 3-6 with the polish of the 3 and the humility of the 6.



    I would imagine that most phobic 6s tend to be submissive, but I wouldn't go so far as to say dependent. I don't know about most 6s, but I have felt that power imbalance in relationships before, but do not in my current relationship. I think we share equal control, though we may wield it differently.



    It could? I'm not sure. I feel empowered when I do things independently, but I'm also an sx/so, and I feel best when I'm around people. I don't really like doing a lot on my own, but I relate that more to my instinct variant than my enneatype. My 6w5 INTP dad is very independent, though. He's some combination of sx and sp.
    Hmm, good to know that there's hope. lol

    Also good to know that it may be an intinctual varient thing.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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