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  1. #11
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    This is maybe a random thread for it, but what is phobic vs counter-phobic six?
    phobics give into the fears and anxieties and try to placate them and counterphobics question and rebel against what makes them anxious.
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  2. #12
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    Are the counter-phobic more aggressive toward people? I am not sure I understand six that much. How does it manifest in this current thread topic?

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    I can't see how it's a good match for nine as claimed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    This is maybe a random thread for it, but what is phobic vs counter-phobic six?
    It's basically a rephrasing of fight-versus-flight. A "phobic" ("phobos" meaning "fear") 6 tries to deal with their fear via flight - by hiding or running from the threat. A "counter-phobic" 6 tries to deal with fear via fight, by preemptively facing it out in the open.

    Here's the old ocean-moonshine.net distinction description:

    It is typically at a quite young age then, in response to the illegitimate or insensitive exercise of authority, that Sixes adopt their fundamental strategy for dealing with their underlying anxieties and for handling imbalanced power relationships. Some Sixes adopt a basically phobic approach. Phobic Sixes are generally compliant, affiliative and cooperative. They strive to avoid undue attention and to defuse tension by appearing to be "harmless." They thereby strive to avoid triggering aggression in others. Other Sixes adopt the opposite strategy of dealing with anxieties and become counterphobic, essentially taking a defiant stand against whomever or whatever they find threatening. This is the Six who takes on authority or who adopts a dare devil attitude towards physical danger. Counterphobic Sixes can be aggressive, and frequently adopt a rebellious or anti-authoritarian demeanor. Such Sixes are often unaware of the fear which motivates their actions. For counterphobic Sixes, the inner tension of living with their anxiety is greater than the fear of any external threat they might be facing, so they adopt an oppositional attitude and throw themselves into action. This approach sometimes succeeds in obscuring from the counterphobic Six's line of vision the fear which is actually at the root of their behavior. Consequently, counterphobic Sixes frequently deny being anxious. Interestingly, some phobic Sixes are also unaware of their underlying anxiety, an anxiety which is often readily apparent to others. Because anxiety serves as the backdrop to all their emotional states, some Sixes are unaware of its existence, as they have nothing with which to contrast it.
    Most 6s react both ways, but I assume the phobic/cp distinctions caught on because the two ends of the spectrum present so differently. A phobic 6 could easily look like a 2 or 9, and a cp 6 generally looks like an 8. Personally, I tend away from the distinctions, because 6 thinking is 6 thinking, regardless of the resulting behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit
    Are the counter-phobic more aggressive toward people? I am not sure I understand six that much. How does it manifest in this current thread topic?
    Yes, definitely, because they try to nip danger in the bud before it begins. The paradox is that this often creates conflict, because the "danger" is entirely in the 6's mind, and doesn't necessarily correlate to actual danger. So the 6 observes someone who's being sulky and grouchy, fears that the grumpy person will be cruel to them, illustrates that scenario in their mind, and creates this colorful interpretation of the grump as their enemy, and then aggressively confronts the grump to prevent the grump from catching them off guard later. So then this person who is already grumpy gets barked at by the 6, and in turn resents the 6 for seemingly randomly attacking - so the 6's fears are realized. The truth might just be that the "grump" pulled an all-nighter for school and is tired and hungry, and was no danger whatsoever to the 6, but the 6 created a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    So then in relation to this thread, 6s have to learn to trust because it stops us from accidentally creating these self-fulfilling prophecies and sabotaging ourselves.

    I understand myself as a 6 somewhat in the frame of having grown up in a "battlefield", because I was fighting a very severe disease from birth through most of my early life. I was always "fighting", always on the defense, and I always had to guard myself against danger - I could have died, many times. Now I've overcome the medical condition enough to live a rather normal life, but I have a really hard time escaping that mindset of always scanning the battlefield for the next danger. My vision of the world is distorted because I don't trust that a crisis isn't looming right beyond the horizon. It's sad though, because I spend so much time thinking about how to keep myself alive that I don't spend living. Learning to trust changes that.

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit
    I can't see how it's a good match for nine as claimed.
    It's good in my relationship because my SO simplifies and breaks down problems while I analyze and plan. He can help me not be afraid and to appreciate what I have during times of peace while I can help him prepare for and navigate during times of conflict. We share a desire to bond and belong, as well as a desire for comfort and stability. We're both ethical and hardworking, but really enjoy lots of relaxing together. Our relationship has been magnetic and fluid from the get-go, though not without a handful of major upturns. We have always shared trust between us so deeply that we don't bother wondering about the other. The positive match may have little to do with enneatype, but it works for us, either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yes, definitely, because they try to nip danger in the bud before it begins. The paradox is that this often creates conflict, because the "danger" is entirely in the 6's mind, and doesn't necessarily correlate to actual danger. So the 6 observes someone who's being sulky and grouchy, fears that the grumpy person will be cruel to them, illustrates that scenario in their mind, and creates this colorful interpretation of the grump as their enemy, and then aggressively confronts the grump to prevent the grump from catching them off guard later. So then this person who is already grumpy gets barked at by the 6, and in turn resents the 6 for seemingly randomly attacking - so the 6's fears are realized. The truth might just be that the "grump" pulled an all-nighter for school and is tired and hungry, and was no danger whatsoever to the 6, but the 6 created a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    So then in relation to this thread, 6s have to learn to trust because it stops us from accidentally creating these self-fulfilling prophecies and sabotaging ourselves.
    I think I have seen some six like this on the forums...

    I understand myself as a 6 somewhat in the frame of having grown up in a "battlefield", because I was fighting a very severe disease from birth through most of my early life. I was always "fighting", always on the defense, and I always had to guard myself against danger - I could have died, many times. Now I've overcome the medical condition enough to live a rather normal life, but I have a really hard time escaping that mindset of always scanning the battlefield for the next danger. My vision of the world is distorted because I don't trust that a crisis isn't looming right beyond the horizon. It's sad though, because I spend so much time thinking about how to keep myself alive that I don't spend living. Learning to trust changes that.
    Ugh. That is rough. Glad you are doing better now.

    It's good in my relationship because my SO simplifies and breaks down problems while I analyze and plan. He can help me not be afraid and to appreciate what I have during times of peace while I can help him prepare for and navigate during times of conflict. We share a desire to bond and belong, as well as a desire for comfort and stability. We're both ethical and hardworking, but really enjoy lots of relaxing together. Our relationship has been magnetic and fluid from the get-go, though not without a handful of major upturns. We have always shared trust between us so deeply that we don't bother wondering about the other. The positive match may have little to do with enneatype, but it works for us, either way.
    I meant how it's good for the nine.

  6. #16
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huxley3112 View Post
    Looking for thoughts and experiences from other E6's on how you've learned to trust. The world, other people, yourself. I attempt to rationalize or think myself through fear, but I sense this is just another mental loop somewhat disconnected from my emotions.

    I want to feel trust, not just think it.

    Ideas?
    What is trust? I'm not sure it's a yes/no kind of thing. I don't really think about trust at all, but more in terms of expectations. I expect that person X will probably do things a certain way, and person Y will probably do them some other way. I don't tend to worry too much about people betraying me. I don't expect them to, but if they do I deal with it. e.g. in a relationship I have never worried about my partner cheating without huge red flag appearing.

    I can't decide if I trust everyone or no-one or everyone to various degrees. I don't know if I really understand at a concrete level what trust means. Does anyone want to describe what it means for them?
    -end of thread-

  7. #17
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    I need to work on my trust issues so at the moment I'm not sure what to post in this thread. I feel as though my problem is that I don't trust a lot of people, but in practice I tend to act as though I trust them anyway, because I feel it's the right thing to do, or I want them to prove me wrong, or something. If things then go wrong I feel lke I've been "proved right" in a depressing self-fulfilling way.

    Re: counterphobic/phobic. I think it's a sliding scale. People have weird ideas about sixes. We're insanely aggressive, or we're in a constant state of terror. I have actually seen these things suggested or that 6 is innately a more unhealthy type than others. I think if you were totally at either extreme it would probably be very unhealthy, but most aren't. I would hope, anyway! But for myself I think of it as being a bit too forebearing/submissive some of the time and a bit too forthright at other times. That would really apply to me. I'm primarily phobic, I know that. But I can see counterphobic moments/traits in myself, too.


    EDIT: 6s are generally very loyal (somewhat paradoxical) and although we over-analyze, I know for a fact that there are an enormous amount of people out there who analyze very little or not at all. I think this is partly where the 6/9 good relationship comes in. To be very simplistic about it, I imagine a 6 could help a 9 wake up/be a bit more alert and a 9 could help a 6 chill out a bit. Although the chilling out thing is strange. I posted a thread once about how I am laid-back but wound up at the same time. A lot of 6s posted in the thread and said they totally agreed. For myself at least, I feel as though there are loads of small things that don't get to me, in part because I just don't want to add the stress to my life. I don't care, or I'm ready to go with the flow. But when I care, I care extremely and almost obsessively, and depending what it is, I may become very anxious, too.

    We're not all ticking time bombs ready to go off though, don't worry. 6 integrates to 9 when healthier and this would help explain why I debated between 6 and 9 for ages. I would like to think I'm reasonably healthy though I have lots of work to do
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  8. #18
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Trust is for chumps.
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  9. #19
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I need to work on my trust issues so at the moment I'm not sure what to post in this thread. I feel as though my problem is that I don't trust a lot of people, but in practice I tend to act as though I trust them anyway, because I feel it's the right thing to do, or I want them to prove me wrong, or something. If things then go wrong I feel lke I've been "proved right" in a depressing self-fulfilling way.

    I'm primarily phobic, I know that. But I can see counterphobic moments/traits in myself, too.


    EDIT: 6s are generally very loyal (somewhat paradoxical) and although we over-analyze
    What you've said here is very similar for me. Especially the way you described trust. But can you explain the loyal part...and the somewhat paradoxical part too??


    @Randomnity It feels like I trust no one. But I act like I trust people immediately. Actually when I get into a new relationship I trust right away and can get attached very quickly too.

    I would say the definition of trust for me would be: waiting for my belief, that the other person will use their abilities to their fulfullment, to come true. <---So in other words hope.

    This hope has not made it to faith yet though.

    When the hope is reassured and shows signs that it wont dwindle down, that is when I trust someone.

    I am not saying this is reality though....cause people really are doing the best they can at any given moment. lol

    SO YES YOU ARE SOOO RIGHT! It's more like expectations!

    And trust would lead to loyalty. Which I don't understand on a concrete level cause its subjective.

    Example: one time my bf was debating with someone in the other room, and they came out an asked me to decide who was right. I didn't really agree with either of them. I said well it does a little of this AND a little of that. And my bf was really mad at me for not just agreeing with him even when the agreeing would have made me a liar.....<---in this way I am not loyal....that's why I have always had a problem with loyalty... Also it seems like a T vs. F thing
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  10. #20
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    What you've said here is very similar for me. Especially the way you described trust. But can you explain the loyal part...and the somewhat paradoxical part too??


    @Randomnity It feels like I trust no one. But I act like I trust people immediately. Actually when I get into a new relationship I trust right away and can get attached very quickly too.

    I would say the definition of trust for me would be: waiting for my belief, that the other person will use their abilities to their fulfullment, to come true. <---So in other words hope.

    This hope has not made it to faith yet though.

    When the hope is reassured and shows signs that it wont dwindle down, that is when I trust someone.

    I am not saying this is reality though....cause people really are doing the best they can at any given moment. lol

    SO YES YOU ARE SOOO RIGHT! It's more like expectations!

    And trust would lead to loyalty. Which I don't understand on a concrete level cause its subjective.

    Example: one time my bf was debating with someone in the other room, and they came out an asked me to decide who was right. I didn't really agree with either of them. I said well it does a little of this AND a little of that. And my bf was really mad at me for not just agreeing with him even when the agreeing would have made me a liar.....<---in this way I am not loyal....that's why I have always had a problem with loyalty... Also it seems like a T vs. F thing
    A lot of what you just said resonated too

    I think the "loyalty" thing is paradoxical because you wouldn't think that difficulties with trust would lead to loyalty. I also saw it said somewhere that 6s tend to be very loyal but are occasionally capable of "incredible acts of disloyalty". I suppose any human being is capable of that but I kind of knew what they meant. I certainly relate though to what you said about hoping that people will fulfill their potential (if that's what you meant), partly because of your belief, faith and trust in them. But also feeling that it's a bit unlikely that they will. Both at the same time.

    In my case, I'm extremely loyal to friends/loved ones almost to the point of being a bit obsessive about them, sometimes. But if someone betrays my trust in what I feel is a manner really dangerous to myself, I am capable of dropping them almost coldly, completely cutting them out of my life. (This happens very very rarely, but it has happened.) And then I wonder if that's disloyal, too...
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